Where to Live in Seattle or Portland Area?

[Chuckanut]

If you really want to be close to trails Bend, Or is your place. We had a home there for 16 years...full time for about 4. I could walk to the local trail. Nature park was about a mile away. State park about 3-4 miles. Lots of outdoor activities...cycling, hiking, snow sports. Downsides are medical care. Only 1 hospital system & lots of complaints. ohhh...and costs are high.

The hospital system can be a big problem when living outside of major metropolitan areas. Currently, there is only one hospital out on the Kitsap Peninsula west of Seattle. Emergency waiting times can be 4-6 hours if you are not in critical condition. Apparently, a few days ago the hospital called the local fire departments and asked for EMTs to show up at the hospital to help the nurses with ER patients.

https://www.yahoo.com/video/short-staffed-hospital-silverdale-calls-024943324.html

“She expressed that this was a bit of an unprecedented request, and she said the conditions in the emergency room were horrible,” Christian said.

The nurse called the backline to a 911 dispatcher, and that dispatcher called the battalion chief for Central Kitsap Fire and Rescue. The battalion chief dispatched two firefighter EMTs to help.

“She was describing to the dispatcher that they only had five nurses on duty and they had over 45 patients just in the waiting room,” Christian said. The firefighters helped in the ER for about an hour and a half.

I guess this hospital is not near enough to Olympia, the state capital. Tough luck.

 

[financemups]

Hi, I've lived in the Seattle area my whole life (50+ years) with stints in Portland, and currently own a rental home in Bend, OR, and have family near Vancouver/PDX. I think if you are looking for a non-rural apartment within walking distance of trails in the Seattle area, your choices are going to be a little limited, if it was me with that criteria I would look at anything you can rent near Squak Mt. which is going to be bordered by the towns of Issaquah, Renton (specifically Renton Highlands), Newcastle, and maybe Maple Valley. See map of area here https://tinyurl.com/ydn36va5 . You're probably not going to literally be able to walk out your front door and walk to a trailhead. You're going to want to have a car to live in any of these places. Try and find a place that has air conditioning, it is getting hot here.

Places that other posters have suggested also sound really nice. As I mentioned, summers are getting quite a lot hotter here and forest fires are a real threat. Living along the gorge like down in Vancouver WA can be super duper hot during hot months and I have family in Washougal who are right now pretty close to the Nakia creek fire (like, as in they have to monitor evacuation status).

Bellingham is FANTASTIC, lots of hiking but I have no idea if it'd meet your criteria for health care providers. It is expensive there. Also, hard to make money if you need to work.

Bend/Redmond OR is also fantastic, wonderful for hiking/skiing but also gets way hot and again you have forest fire risks. Healthcare there is awful.

I love Portland a lot but I don't really know of a neighborhood there where you could rent an apartment within walking distance of hiking trails.

 

[danabu]

Consider Gig Harbor?

We enjoyed our first summer in Gig Harbor this year - less than an hour to SeaTac, much less busy that Seattle, adequate "big city" amenities nearby across the bridge in Tacoma, and a charming little town that has a great sense of community. Prices are better on the West side of the Puget Sound, too - may be worth your consideration.

 

[ScottRAB]

I live in Washington, unincorporated, 5 acre minimums. I work for an employer in Oregon and live about 30 minutes north of Portland. Oregon does not tax income earned outside of Oregon, so my hybrid schedule with 4 days a week typical remote working means income on those days is not taxed (I choose the refund route).
I'm about 2 hours from the Ocean and 2 hours from Mt St Helens or Mt Hood. Portland and the surrounding area have multiple hiking opportunities and natural areas for fishing, hunting, boating and mushroom picking.

I'm not into wine, but there are several vineyards in the area and the food scene in Portland often makes national lists. Portland is bike friendly, with a city average of 6% bike commute, and inner areas approaching 20%. Outside of Portland that friendliness drops quickly.

Portland has major medical centers, including OHSU, as well as several large corporation employers nearby (Nike, Intel, Adidas). Portland International Airport is about 45 minutes away and Seattle is 2.5 hours.

Vancouver, WA is just north of Portland and might fit your goals.

I grew up outside Seattle, so am also biased. And as stated, overcast is the most common weather.

 

[pdxgal]

I want access to the good health care, airports, and cultural opportunities that come with the cities and also because I want access to good walking and hiking.

How much can landlords increase rent per year in Washington and Oregon? For a renter like me, that would be good to know. I was under the impression that rent control was illegal in Washington and that there is a modest form of rent control in Oregon, but I guess I got that wrong.


Thanks! I'm going to check out Vancouver while in Portland. Can you recommend any neighborhood that would be walking distance to a good, safe walking trail? Anywhere to go to get a good sense of what it is like to live in Vancouver?

You mention shopping in Portland, but is it a hassle to get into the city? Is there good public transportation? How often do people really go into Portland from Vancouver to shop? I'm trying to get a sense of how Vancouver compares to someplace like Beaverton, aside from taxes.

....I lived in a very foggy part of San Francisco and it didn't bother me. I hope that living in drizzle and overcast skies will be fine. Overcast skies won't bother me. If the rain prevents me from getting out and walking, then that might be a bit of a concern. I think I'd definitely prefer gray and drizzle to someplace like Florida or someplace with lots of snow. I love the San Francisco area, but it is out of my price range.

I'm interested in knowing the weather differences between the Portland area and Seattle area. Not just rain and clouds, but also summer heat.


Thanks! Can you think of any particular neighborhoods in Beaverton/Hillsboro or any of the other Portland suburbs that are walking distance to walking trails where it would be safe for a woman to walk alone during the day?

Aside from the IT factor, can you give me a sense of the main differences between Beaverton/Hillsboro and other suburbs like West Linn and Oswego? What about Tigard?

NomDeER, I live in Portland (Grant Park neighborhood), grew up in the SF Bay Area, am a single woman, like to walk and also do cultural things. So here's my $.02, sort of in the order of some of your questions/comments.

The PDX airport is a gem, convenient & easy to get to on the MAX, with pretty good array of flights. Lots of healthcare options as others have mentioned, including "alternative" practitioners. There are colleges here for naturopathy, chiropractic care, and traditional Chinese medicine. Very easy to find an acupuncturist

The cultural activities are numerous and varied. Whatever interests you, you can probably find here. Prices seem fairly reasonable compared to other big cities. I think Portland's cultural strength is in the smaller, quirky artists and venues. Things like the live audience show "Livewire!" (heard on NPR), the innovative dance/acrobatic troupe DoJump!, and the many small theater companies and music series (Chamber Music NW, Pickathon). I go to and enjoy sooo many more cultural things here than I ever imagined I would, in part because they're so accessible.

Re: walking, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Forest Park. It's another gem. 5k acres and 80 miles of trails. If you're on the west side of town it's very close (walking distance from some parts). Otherwise it's still very easy to get to. When it was 100+ degrees here last summer it offered a welcoming cooler refuge among the old growth trees. There are also lots of urban walks (e.g. Mt. Tabor, waterfront park). Walking around the various neighborhoods can be fun too. And of course there's Mt. Hood, the Columbia River Gorge, Coast Range, etc. within easy driving distance.

Beaverton could be a nice place to live IMO -- definitely cheaper -- but it's much more suburban. Harder to get to places without a car. Notably fewer sidewalks. The new Patricia Reser Center for the Arts is great though.

Re: sidewalks, in Portland proper there's a cultural difference between the east side and much of the west side (outside of downtown and Nob Hill district). The west side is more suburban feeling (definitely hillier!), with bigger lots. Someone once told me she chose to live there because she didn't want to look out her window and see neighbors. She may have been an extreme case, but there's definitely a different vibe than on the east side. And recently there was a multi-year NIMBY fight about what side of the street to put a sidewalk so people could walk to the nearby library without going into the street. That tells you something. Personally, I prefer the east side I can live mostly car-free and get around by foot, bike or transit. That bodes well for being able to age in place.

Re: other suburbs, West Linn and Lake Oswego are fairly upscale, as another poster noted. You might be able to find relative bargains there for apartments, since many younger folks want to be closer to PDX and there's not tons of industries/businesses there, unlike Beaverton/Hillsboro. A friend once rented a 2BR place in a 1960's era building just south of downtown Lake Oswego that overlooked a creek. It was really lovely and much cheaper than anything comparable in Portland. Lake Oswego has a cute downtown, but otherwise these towns are pretty spread out. Remind me of Orinda/Moraga in the Bay Area. Beaverton/Hillsboro is more akin to Walnut Creek. Don't know much about Tigard as a place to live. Seems to be a mostly houses and strip malls when I've driven through.

Vancouver WA is very suburban, though there's an older part near downtown. Some nice amenities have been added in recent years (Confluence Project trail, Esther Short Park), but there's not nearly as much in the way of culture vs PDX (IMO anyway). I also believe it leans more red than blue politically, in case that matters. Public transport to/from Portland is not great, mostly buses aimed at commuters. There are two big shopping centers in OR just across the river, where people shop at Home Depot, Lowes, IKEA, BestBuy, Target, Marshall's, etc. My sense is for day-to-day stuff folks shop closer to home (maybe a Vancouverite will chime in).

Rent control is a hot topic. In Oregon there is state-wide rent control of 7% plus the west coast CPI. So this year the allowable increase was close to 15% I think. But many landlords will not increase by that much (I for one). Portland is a special case, with more complicated rules and a lower allowable annual increase.

If you didn't mind the fog in SF you will be fine with the gray skies in the PNW Personally I don't like fog, but the changeable gray skies here I find beautiful. Reminds me of Ireland, especially in spring/fall -- "if you don't like the weather, wait 15 minutes". Weather forecasts talks of "sun breaks". And the rain doesn't stop people here from getting outdoors. Seems to me it rains more at night and less in the daytime here than in CA. People just put on a jacket with a hood and they're good. I never use an umbrella here. Portland is 90 minutes inland so gets a bit warmer in summer than Seattle, and slightly more humid. Quite tolerable though, compared to much of the US. Although more people are getting AC units after last year's record 112 degrees. As a result of that heat wave, landlords can no longer ban tenants from having their own AC units. Personally I love having four seasons.

If you want to know more (!), I'm happy to discuss offline. Feel free to PM me. You're wise to make a researched, informed decision. Moving to a new place is a big change. Good luck!

 

[texasdiver]

We live in Camas WA across the river from Portland and find it ideal. Camas is the next town east of Vancouver. Very safe and somewhat affluent hilly area with lots of views of the surrounding region (similar perhaps to Bothell or Woodenville WA in demographics and access to the central city). Camas has its own police force and restored walkable downtown area so it is a stand-alone town but with easy access to Portland but without any of the social hassles of living in Portland proper. PDX airport is about 15 min from our house so it is actually much closer than from most of the western suburbs of Portland. And downtown Portland is 20-25 min away during off-peak hours. Camas probably has the best urban hiking and walking trail network in the region.

No income tax in WA and no sales tax in OR so a lot of people tax-arbitrage by living in WA and shopping in OR. Conveniently there are collections of big box stores right across both bridges over the Columbia where the parking lots seem to be at least half full of cars with WA plates (Costco, Ikea, Best Buy, Home Depot, etc.)

 

[pdxgal]

And downtown Portland is 20-25 min away during off-peak hours.

+1 for Camas being nice, with great access to outdoor spaces. And good detail about the travel time to Portland. At other times it can be twice as long, with traffic backed up on I-205, I-84 and WA Rte 14. Important for OP to consider driving/transport conditions at different times. Seattle area can get quite congested too, though with so much remote work perhaps less so now. In Portland there are several neighborhoods with only one or two arterial roads in/out, which can cause traffic bottlenecks. Parts of Lake Oswego and West Linn are structured that way too.

@NonDeER, you may want to write down your selection criteria before you visit places in person. List the "must have" and "nice to have" features. When I relocated to Portland (for a job) and was house hunting, evaluating places against my criteria helped keep the emotional responses in check (kind of like setting an asset allocation can remove some of the emotion from investing).

 

[Brat]

I live and raised my family in Portland, lived for 15 years on the south end of Bainbridge Island. BI is a great place to live but is not convenient for emergency medical care.

I live in the only housing co-operative in Oregon, near Washington Park. Our building was completed in 1959 so it does require ongoing attention. Most apartments are two-bedroom with parking and a large storage room. If you are interested reach out to me.

PDX is accessible by light rail and just off a bridge to Washington. Nearby is a Costco, Home Depot, and Target full of Wasingtonions avoiding sales tax.

The situation with the homeless is awful. People avoid downtown for that reason. Citizens are fed up, and a restructuring of the City Council is on the ballot. Vancouver has a homeless problem too but not as bad.

Portland/Vancouver metro has excellent hospitals including a large VA Hospital and a VA Domisilary in Vancouver.

All of the NW has local climates. The west side of a slope gets more rain, for example, because our storms come from the west. The Columbia River Gorge is like a trumpet wind-wise, if there is high pressure on the east of the Cascades it can suck the heat out of exposed homes.

Seattle has had more significant (damaging) earthquakes than Portland, in fact, I have lived in the PNW for 75+ years and can't recall one in Portland. The coast is at significant risk of a major earthquake and tsunami. I can send links to UTube videos by geologists discussing that risk.

 

[texasdiver]

+1 for Camas being nice, with great access to outdoor spaces. And good detail about the travel time to Portland. At other times it can be twice as long, with traffic backed up on I-205, I-84 and WA Rte 14. Important for OP to consider driving/transport conditions at different times. Seattle area can get quite congested too, though with so much remote work perhaps less so now. In Portland there are several neighborhoods with only one or two arterial roads in/out, which can cause traffic bottlenecks. Parts of Lake Oswego and West Linn are structured that way too.

@NonDeER, you may want to write down your selection criteria before you visit places in person. List the "must have" and "nice to have" features. When I relocated to Portland (for a job) and was house hunting, evaluating places against my criteria helped keep the emotional responses in check (kind of like setting an asset allocation can remove some of the emotion from investing).

The 205 bridge does sometimes get backed up during the morning commute. But every time I fly out of PDX or drop someone off we seem to be leaving early enough in the am to miss the rush hour commuter traffic. It never takes me more than about 15 min because you just stay on the turning lane on the bridge and get right back off. In any event, if you are trying to get to the airport during rush hour I can absolutely PROMISE you that it will be an order of magnitude easier to get there from Camas than from say Beaverton on the other side of the metro area. Driving into Portland on US-26 from Beaverton and then across the metro on 84 during the middle of rush hour to get to PDX will not be fun.

The greater Portland area has no shortage of nice suburban areas. It is just a matter of figuring out your own personal geography. If employment is involved then by all means live near work. If not then you have lots of options.

 

[texasdiver]

All of the NW has local climates. The west side of a slope gets more rain, for example, because our storms come from the west. The Columbia River Gorge is like a trumpet wind-wise, if there is high pressure on the east of the Cascades it can suck the heat out of exposed homes

I'm a pretty hard core walker and dog walker living in the Camas area. So I've been out rain or shine 3-4 times a day 365 days a year for the past 7 years. Camas is more windy to begin with because it is at the mouth of the Columbia River Gorge. But what I have also discovered is that there is a direct proportional relationship between views and wind. Those multi-million dollar view houses with 360 degree views of the surrounding cityscape, rivers, and mountains? They get absolutely pummeled by winter winds. If you have a view then the wind "can see you too"

The difference is stunningly dramatic. We live down along a greenbelt in sort of a small hollow blocks above us are larger 2x more expensive views of the Columbia and Portland. I usually have a nice pleasant sheltered walk up the greenbelt trail from my more modest house, but when I pop out on top 2 blocks up and turn the corner I just get blasted by the winter wind. Doesn't help that the folks up there cut down all the big fir trees to open up their views so there are no wind breaks on the streets. Gotta have those views!

 

[Focus]

Rent control is a hot topic. In Oregon there is state-wide rent control of 7% plus the west coast CPI. So this year the allowable increase was close to 15% I think. But many landlords will not increase by that much (I for one). Portland is a special case, with more complicated rules and a lower allowable annual increase.

What an excellent summary you've provided the OP. It all rings true to me, a former Portlander.

Since she's a renter, I'll focus on that topic for a moment, contrasting Oregon with Washington.

Washington's state legislature banned rent control in 1981, and somehow that's never been overturned as rents have skyrocketed, even under Democratic rule.

Here's a link to a Seattle Times article on the rise in rents.

Lacking the rent control option, Seattle implemented some renter protections late last year within the city limits. They're detailed on the city government site.

 

[skyking1]

I'm a pretty hard core walker and dog walker living in the Camas area. So I've been out rain or shine 3-4 times a day 365 days a year for the past 7 years. Camas is more windy to begin with because it is at the mouth of the Columbia River Gorge. But what I have also discovered is that there is a direct proportional relationship between views and wind. Those multi-million dollar view houses with 360 degree views of the surrounding cityscape, rivers, and mountains? They get absolutely pummeled by winter winds. If you have a view then the wind "can see you too"

The difference is stunningly dramatic. We live down along a greenbelt in sort of a small hollow blocks above us are larger 2x more expensive views of the Columbia and Portland. I usually have a nice pleasant sheltered walk up the greenbelt trail from my more modest house, but when I pop out on top 2 blocks up and turn the corner I just get blasted by the winter wind. Doesn't help that the folks up there cut down all the big fir trees to open up their views so there are no wind breaks on the streets. Gotta have those views!

The other effect is noise. If you have these views the road noise can reach you from a long ways away. I found that out looking at view properties in Sequim, we were at an open house and this pack of harleys roared by 1/2 mile away and it was like they were on the same block with you.

 

[NomDeER]

I'm bumping up this thread from last year to see if I can get some further insights.

Reminder: I am looking to move and rent an apartment in the Pacific Northwest in the next year or two. In particular, I'm looking at the Portland area or in the Seattle suburbs (especially the Eastside). I may also consider Olympia or Tacoma.

I ended up deciding that I was biting off too much to do in one exploratory trip. So, last year I went to the Portland area, including Vancouver and Camas. Major thanks to all who contributed to this thread. It was so very helpful. This year, I am going up to the Seattle area. I'll post my thoughts about my comparisons between the areas after I get back.

I was suprised to find that a desire for air conditioning eliminated most apartments and often eliminated entire neighborhoods and large swaths of some cities. This was a problem in the Portland area and seems to be an even bigger problem in the Seattle area. Often, this isn't even a price issue. No matter what I'm willing to pay for rent in some areas, there simply aren't air conditioned apartments available.

So, I would like to hear from those of you in the Portland and Seattle and Olympia and Tacoma areas. Do you consider air conditioning essential? Are portable air conditioners sufficient? I can handle cold better than I can handle heat. A couple of uncomfortably hot days might be ok. But, I don't want to go all summer being miserable.

Are there parts of the Eastside that are better when it comes to heat? Issaquah?

Also, for those of you in the Redmond area, I am wondering about crime issues. Most of the air conditioned apartments in Redmond are in downtown Redmond (with one in Southeast Redmond). But, crimegrades says this area is terrible when it comes to crime. What do you think?

 

[Blooming Late]

For the Portland/Vancouver area, yes essential. A portable/window A/C unit would be fine if permitted and safe (not ground level).

We used to live in a 2 story townhouse with the bedrooms upstairs, and it would get too hot to sleep comfortably in the summer. A small upstairs window A/C solved the problem 100%.

 

[dmpi]

Seattle has an excellent light rail system and if you're 65 or over it's just a dollar a trip. Light rail will take you to the airport, downtown, UW, and other places. The system is in process of slowly being expanded. I would try to make an effort to find something that's walkable to one of the stations. 'walkable' means different thing to different people. To me it means about 1/2 mile max.

 

[skyking1]

Regarding the AC:
Yes and it depends on which side of the building you are on. Full south sun higher up will defeat a portable unit in the city, which also suffers from the urban heatsink effect.
I would give Olympia a good look. It is a nice city, not so much traffic but plenty of city amenities IMO.
We are moving up on the peninsula in the rain shadow ourselves, and it is not only drier but cooler. It will be 10 degrees cooler on the hot days up there.
No city living there but that is how we prefer it.

 

[tulak]

Also, for those of you in the Redmond area, I am wondering about crime issues. Most of the air conditioned apartments in Redmond are in downtown Redmond (with one in Southeast Redmond). But, crimegrades says this area is terrible when it comes to crime. What do you think?

I don’t live in Redmond, but visit often. It’s being redeveloped due to light rail, so a lot more higher density. But it’s one of the last places that I would think of for crime.

I would be curious to know what type of crime? I suspect it is theft/property related since the area is more affluent?

Since downtown Redmond is being redeveloped, most of the buildings are newer, which might be why you’re seeing air conditioned apartments. Air conditioning is new to the PNW and usually you only need it for a week or two (or three).

 

[skyking1]

All it takes to skew the crime metric is a bunch of stolen Kias. I would suggest digging deeper into that.

 

[acronymous]

Seattle has an excellent light rail system and if you're 65 or over it's just a dollar a trip. Light rail will take you to the airport, downtown, UW, and other places. The system is in process of slowly being expanded. I would try to make an effort to find something that's walkable to one of the stations. 'walkable' means different thing to different people. To me it means about 1/2 mile max.

Current timeframe has the north expansion to Lynnwood ready in 2024 and Eastside expansion.in 2025. There are more trees north of Seattle which would make for cooler housing but it's getting hot enough for some active cooling. We're looking at replacing our gas furnace with a heat pump.

 

[calmloki]

If you are in Portland and checking out Vancouver, you should also check out Camas WA. It is east of Vancouver. It was smaller town, but it getting more more new home construction lately. It is a safer community vs Vancouver, Portland.

Beautiful parks (free)

https://clark.wa.gov/public-works/lacamas-regional-park

https://clark.wa.gov/public-works/captain-william-clark-regional-park-cottonwood-beach

I would take you about 15-20 minutes drive to get to Portland Airport (PDX), where you can shop (the shopping area (mall) is next to the airport), you can also ride the light rail to Portland city center, Beaverton, Hillsboro etc... ($5 you can ride all day).

+1. We lent on a couple places in Camas - bridge across to the PDX airport and Ikea and Costco are within a mile or so after crossing the bridge. Considered moving there from our Salem Oregon area home, but we're country mice.

Oregon landlords can raise rent by a certain percentage + inflation rate; like 9.9% right now. Oregon's current Governor is rabidly pro-tenant in her thinking and we've laws to match that make having animals in no-pet apartments real easy and eviction and notice periods difficult and long.

 

[Harris4crna]

Spent most of my early life on the Eastside of Seattle fro age 15-33yo. Lived and graduated from Issaquah High, lived in Redmond, Belevue and Kirkland. To answer your question on the AC.

Most of the year you do not need AC, but in Aug you wish you did. The heat seems hotter in the PNW. Perhaps because most of the year it is not. I tolerated 90 degrees in other parts of the country much more than I did in Seattle. If cost is not object than yes find a place with AC. Also, the farther east you go, the higher the elevation. North Bend and on out may be better if no need to commute into the city.

As far as crime, well Seattle as a whole has gotten much worse in that departement. I rememember taking a bus to Seattle, walking up to Capitol Hill to attend Seattle U without any fear. Today, well, that is a whole different story. As far as the Eastside, take a look at the crime rates online. It is an easy google. Although, remember the Eastside is expensive to live. The 80k house I grew up in on the Samamish Plateau (between Redmond and Issaquah) is probably over a million dollars. You may find petty theft or breakins, but not typical hard crime. In other words, the farther you go east than most likely less crime. Of course, it is still a city.

I am hoping to migrate back to the Seattle area to live out my retirement. Personally, I will not be moving back to the Eastside. It is to expensive and to crowded for my liking. I am looking to move up north towards Bellingham or even east of mountains to Wenatche. Good luck on your quest.

 

[braumeister]

I would give Olympia a good look. It is a nice city, not so much traffic but plenty of city amenities IMO.

I'll second that. In my travels in that area, the Olympia area has always appealed to me.

 

[skyking1]

I'll second that. In my travels in that area, the Olympia area has always appealed to me.

It is handy to the ocean beaches and Olympic National Park too.

 

[Jimmie]

My son attends UW. He found that lots of "newer" townhomes have minisplits installed. He didn't find a single apt that had AC. Townhomes cost a little more but typically comes with more space.

We moved to Kitsap county from TX hill country in June and am extremely pleased with the much cooler summer. We've only had about 8-9 days so far this summer where we felt the need for turning on the AC in the afternoons/early evenings. Agree with poster that 90 deg here sure seems hotter than it is (but not near as bad as what we experienced in TX).

 

[Chuckanut]

AC is only needed in the Seattle area about two to three weeks a year.

I recently had a mini split heat pump installed in my home. I did it to get more heat in the winter and early spring months since my base board electric units can’t keep up with the cold. And it should reduce my electric bill a bit. The AC is a nice bonus but not worth the cost. IMO, people are getting more AC because it comes as part of the heat pump package. A lot of people buy a portable AC unit to use during the few weeks the heat gets in the high 80s and above.

November through February are cold, dark and damp all the time,