Apple v FBI

I'm quite sure that if terrorists held your child or significant other hostage and were threatening to blow them up but could be stopped if apple would just unlock the security code of the phone controlling the bomb's detonator & give it to the FBI so that the FBI could disable the detonator that you'd be telling apple to respect the terrorists' privacy & not do it. All hail privacy!!

The number ifs is awesome. Can't even begin to elaborate on that hypothetical.

It is very good at tugging at emotional strings. As one who had his own butt on the line many times, I'll pass on deconstructing the post.

Gotta love armchair theorists.

Repeat, I am for privacy.
 
Not according to my web search. The phone can be erased via iCloud.

And everything in the iCloud is accessible to apple and easily turned over to inquiring agencies. And they have done so.
 
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For your use, as you see fit
That's original. As I suspected, you're still sore about that thread.
 
My iPhone is locked with a passcode. Or I can open it with my fingerprint. What I was referring to is the "self-destruct" mode that erases the data in the phone if ten incorrect pass codes are attempted. I do not have that function enabled. So in my case, the FBI could try every combination until they got it correct. So could a crook. But if I lose my phone, I will most likely have time to use the Find My Phone function on the iCloud to erase my data before anyone could get in.

The only thing I would be concerned about is any banking/financial information. If for some reason I was unable to brick my lost phone, an afternoon of phone calls to my financial institutions to alert them and change my passwords would be necessary. But I could most likely get that done before the bad guy broke into my phone.

I don't know if I should bother worrying about it. Since our whole family's personal data was compromised courtesy of OPM, my SSN/name/DOB might be floating around anyway.


I wouldn't use my fingerprint as your passcode in Virginia.

http://www.americancriminallawreview.com/aclr-online/phones-fingerprints-and-fifth-amendment/

Not sure how other states have ruled.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
 
Touch ID is so damn convenient though.

Used it many times for Apple Pay and virtually all my banking apps support it.
 
Not according to my web search. The phone can be erased via iCloud.

I think we are totally in agreement just using the wrong words since you were saying that you didn't want to auto erase the device after 8 failed attempts because you can disable the phone via iCloud but you cannot disable the phone via iCloud without erasing it via iCloud. ( you can make sure it is locked by creating a new 4 digit Passcode). You simply prefer to make to make the erase decision yourself and do it manually.
 
You can't always assume the phone will be accessible online.
 
Touch ID is so damn convenient though.

Used it many times for Apple Pay and virtually all my banking apps support it.


Understood. By the way, the same can be said about using facial recognition as a pass key (or even as a car key as Volvo has announced). Your mugshot can be compelled just like your fingerprints. Retina scan or iris scan on the other hand, might be a way around things.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
 
Privacy isn't listed as a need but is a right as recognized by SC rulings.
 
In situations like these, I generally prefer what's best for the country over the long term... no central power should be tapping into the private communication of its citizens, and in this case means no extraction of information from smartphones or similar devices...

This all sounds good in a philosophical sort of way.... But, what if this same sort of situation occurs a half dozen times by June? (People killed, Apple Phones, FBI, etc.). I imagine a whole bunch of people may decide this long term view maybe doesn't need to be applied.

I also wonder if the long-term view would mean much to a parent who had children that were in immediate danger and the information on the phone would save them. I bet those parents wouldn't be all that concerned about China's eventually taking advantage of the Iphone's backdoor situation with the FBI.

True, but this is the exact same reason to justify torture... If someone knows of a plot to set off a bomb, is it right to torture them?

I think the discussion is not about torture, but about the legalities and consequences of opening up or not opening up an iPhone. I guess an iPhone could be put into a stress position until it gives up its secrets (or not). Do you know what the laws are regarding making an iPhone extremely uncomfortable for long periods of time?
 
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I think the discussion is not about torture, but about the legalities and consequences of opening up or not opening up an iPhone. I guess an iPhone could be put into a stress position until it gives up its secrets (or not). Do you know what the laws are regarding making an iPhone extremely uncomfortable for long periods of time?
I don't see it that way. The crux of the discussion, IMO, is about how we decide government policy toward thwarting terrorists. Electronic privacy is one part of it, but deciding when and if to torture people is also part of the same discussion. We are basically teasing out the line between our core values and our desire for security.
 
The number ifs is awesome. Can't even begin to elaborate on that hypothetical.

It is very good at tugging at emotional strings. As one who had his own butt on the line many times, I'll pass on deconstructing the post.

Gotta love armchair theorists.

Repeat, I am for privacy.
Yes, two "ifs" is a ton. Who knew?

And as if apple & you aren't pulling at emotional stings with your clamor of privacy above all.

Don't know why you had to bring your butt into this unless it's highly emotional for you.

But got it, your privacy above all & to hell with anyone else.
 
Or, everyone's privacy, and to hell with me. Works both ways.
 
There is supposedly a case involving a woman who was murdered. The cops believe the identity of the murderer is in the victims locked iPhone. So they're in queue to have Apple enable it to be brute forced.

But this is what I meant about the cops seeking the easy way out. Before smart phones, they'd investigate people known to the victim because most murders are committed by people whom the victim knew well, such as spouses or lovers in cases where the victim is a woman.

So are the cops incapable of tracking down the people this victim knew without looking into the iPhone?

Seems like it's more about having the power to intrude on anyone's privacy than simply solving crimes. Presumably, they knew how to investigate crimes 10 years ago, when there weren't encrypted smart phones. Or smart phones at all -- that is the modern multitouch smart phones which we have today.
 
Yes, two "ifs" is a ton. Who knew?

And as if apple & you aren't pulling at emotional stings with your clamor of privacy above all.

Don't know why you had to bring your butt into this unless it's highly emotional for you.

But got it, your privacy above all & to hell with anyone else.

Having one's privacy invaded can and often does expose one to likely and often enough to physical harm.

Experience does improve the concern for privacy.

But then again in the instant case, of apple having been served a warrant for opening a phone with needing special tools to be constructed does in fact create a back door, kind of small but in the middle eastern vernacular it is the "camel's nose under the tent"

One can also play devil's advocate and quote or paraphrase one of our former esteemed public servant's earnest exclamation:
But what difference does it make now.

The parties of concern in this case and the one the esteemed former public public servant referred to are no longer with us.

As I noted before I am no fan of apple. Quiet the opposite. I do appreciate their efforts at making a secure communications and data storage device. Yet managed it with an inexplicably huge hole for security.

Namely, even if the user is religious about a complex security code and enabled the wipe feature after ten failed attempts the information and data of the the device still is exploitable. If as often admonished to backup faithfully, also enabled the automatic icloud backup the information is now insecure.

Here is why.

Apple has unfettered access to the iCloud and can without much trouble extract all stored info. Apple has in the past did acces and extract and turn over to three letter and other agencies the full contetns of iCloud backups. Abd will continue to do so.

Finally apple may have actually found a way to get out from the burden of doing the gummint's bidding. And I do hope they succeed. As I hope other device makers succeed as well.

This refusal to access a particular iphone does create a lot of public discussion and is a very effective smokescreen to push into the background their supremely obnoxious software OS upgrade, supposedly bricking iphones with Error 53. Of course we now know that for apple it was an easily fixed problem. As a cynic I'd say it was a thinly veiled attempt at boosting flagging sales of iphones.

BTW if any communications with any accomplices outside of US were done the FBI shopuld have no problem getting that info form the NSA or other acronymed monitoring database.

Cheers, I'll have a cold one for privacy.
 
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There is supposedly a case involving a woman who was murdered. The cops believe the identity of the murderer is in the victims locked iPhone. So they're in queue to have Apple enable it to be brute forced.

But this is what I meant about the cops seeking the easy way out. Before smart phones, they'd investigate people known to the victim because most murders are committed by people whom the victim knew well, such as spouses or lovers in cases where the victim is a woman.

So are the cops incapable of tracking down the people this victim knew without looking into the iPhone?

Seems like it's more about having the power to intrude on anyone's privacy than simply solving crimes. Presumably, they knew how to investigate crimes 10 years ago, when there weren't encrypted smart phones. Or smart phones at all -- that is the modern multitouch smart phones which we have today.

From the several LEOs I have known, much of a detective's skill is in social engineering. Most are supremely good at it. They have more ways to BS a BSer than the average Joe realizes.
 
...

Seems like it's more about having the power to intrude on anyone's privacy than simply solving crimes. Presumably, they knew how to investigate crimes 10 years ago, when there weren't encrypted smart phones. Or smart phones at all -- that is the modern multitouch smart phones which we have today.

But isn't that the problem? These technologies didn't exist 10 years ago, so of course the investigators took different paths back then - what the heck else would they do?

But now that they exist, there could be useful data there, and it might be helpful to investigators. To ignore it would be to ignore that the times they are a changin'.

By your logic, wire taps for criminals with a proper warrant should not be allowed either - because what did investigators do before the telephone was invented? Or I guess we can't search the trunk of a car if during a traffic stop, an LEO hears banging from inside, muffled calls for 'help', and blood dripping from the car, because cars and trunks didn't exists when the Constitution was written?

I don't think your point holds water.

-ERD50
 
Presumably, they knew how to investigate crimes 10 years ago, when there weren't encrypted smart phones. Or smart phones at all -- that is the modern multitouch smart phones which we have today.
The crooks and bad guys are using smart phone technology, SMS, etc. 10-15 years ago they were using landlines. Law enforcement had access to the landlines (after getting warrants), now they want to have the same access to where the bad guys are communicating today. I don't think it makes sense to cede a whole area of "operations" to the bad guys for free and unfettered use just because it is new.
Again, at least up to this point, our focus should be on the adequacy of the legal process and the authorities it grants. Get that right (i.e. with proper protections for those not suspected of a crime) and we'll have a solution that adequately regulates everything: in-person surveillance, unannounced physical searches, intercept of data in transit and exploitation of data at rest. There's absolutely no reason to give criminals freedom to operate in a "domain" and victimize others just because that domain is new.

Edited to add: Opps--cross-posted with ERD50
 
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But isn't that the problem? These technologies didn't exist 10 years ago, so of course the investigators took different paths back then - what the heck else would they do?

But now that they exist, there could be useful data there, and it might be helpful to investigators. To ignore it would be to ignore that the times they are a changin'.

By your logic, wire taps for criminals with a proper warrant should not be allowed either - because what did investigators do before the telephone was invented? Or I guess we can't search the trunk of a car if during a traffic stop, an LEO hears banging from inside, muffled calls for 'help', and blood dripping from the car, because cars and trunks didn't exists when the Constitution was written?

I don't think your point holds water.

-ERD50


Well, if you are going to go that far back, they would tap the phone or look in the car anyhow without a warrant since that is what they did back then (at least that is what the movie and books say)....


I think this is one of those discussions where you are on one side or the other and nothing is going to sway you choice...
 
...

I think this is one of those discussions where you are on one side or the other and nothing is going to sway you choice...

I think it's more nuanced than that, though as in just about any debate, yes, there are some people locked into one side or the other.

But to those who seem to be saying "privacy trumps all", are there any exceptions? Are you saying search warrants should not be used, ever? No wiretaps, nothing to invade privacy at all, regardless of the level of authorization?

I think the Constitution has it right - privacy is not invaded w/o proper authorization.
[somewhat off-topic from this thread]:Metadata is maybe a gray area - I can think of my phone call to be similar to dropping a letter in a post office mail box. The government has the right (they need to to deliver it) to read the address I'm sending to - maybe that makes it non-private, maybe phone metadata is similar?

-ERD50
 
... But to those who seem to be saying "privacy trumps all", are there any exceptions? Are you saying search warrants should not be used, ever? No wiretaps, nothing to invade privacy at all, regardless of the level of authorization?

I think the Constitution has it right - privacy is not invaded w/o proper authorization...
+1

As I wrote earlier, it is not about privacy. Criminals always lose the right to privacy. When we lock somebody up, he has no privacy. Even with suspects, currently the police with the proper warrant can search private properties for evidence. The phone is no different.

So, Apple argues that the software could leak into bad hands, or that the government can use it to break into the phones that it is not supposed to. If this is the real concern, can this be addressed with the proper precautions?

Just because bad guys could in theory break into computer systems, Apple's included, that did not prevent commercial establishments from asking for and storing customers' info such as credit cards, SS ID, phone number, etc... Do they ever guarantee that the info they store cannot be hacked? Why are they suddenly caring so much about privacy and leak of software?

And about the government abusing it, the FBI did not ask for the software, and said that it did not mind Apple keeping the software at the latter's facility.

I think what bothers me more is that Apple is commandeered to write some new software against its will. I am no lawyer, but know that in war time the government can commandeer, such as ordering the draft or taking over private properties, and we are not currently at war. But recently, people are ordered to have health insurance, just because it is "good for them", or "good for society". It would not surprise me that the SC will rule that Apple must do this for the common good.

By the way, Apple now claims that forcing it to write software is violating its rights to free speech. That's a new twist.
 
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