Are we getting soaked on shower quotes?

[2HOTinPHX]

Great replies....I will take them all in...thanks and happy holidays.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Just trying not to take a bath on a new shower...... LOL.

 

[isisdave]

We've had the same problem with three of those companies that advertise on TV, in the paper, and even billboards and bus benches. All > $10k, although one offered a "discount" from $13k to 9.9k if we'd sign "right now."

It's just a tub to shower conversion. We'd be OK with one-piece or three walls, and access isn't a problem. We'd just like a zero-threshold entrance before we actually need one in this, our "forever home."

I've priced the materials at Lowe's, Menards, etc and $2500 (at retail) would cover it. Most of the businesses advertise "one day installation" for these, so even figuring $200 per hour for 2 people for 8 hours (and I know that one person does most of the work) that's under $6k for labor and materials. Menards has info sheets from contractors who "want" to install the stuff they sell, but most don't even call me back.

It's so frustrating that I put the project on hold, but we'll have to do it eventually. BTW, this is in a low cost-of-living area; the whole house only cost $200k last year, so putting $12k into a freakin' shower just seems incredibly expensive!

 

[Qs Laptop]

I've priced the materials at Lowe's, Menards, etc and $2500 (at retail) would cover it. Most of the businesses advertise "one day installation" for these, so even figuring $200 per hour for 2 people for 8 hours (and I know that one person does most of the work)

This was one of the calculations that really struck me when we got estimates done. These contractors won't let you buy your own components, they supply all. Still, knowing the cost of their components and subtracting these costs from the total estimate, the amount of labor was about $14,000. I then ask how long it will take for the job to be completed, and the sales rep, with a straight face, answers, "with two people takes about 3 days." I'm furiously calculating in my head $14,000 by 3 day @ 8 hours a day x 2 people, well, that's about $300 per hour!

 

[Teacher Terry]

When I was married we totally remodeled both bathrooms ourselves. Both had a free standing shower and the master had a big bathtub with jets. It cost 5k total 10 years ago. This included everything new as we gutted the 1950’s bathrooms.

 

[JoeWras]

You really need to know the quality of the components being installed to do the calculation.

3 piece shower enclosures go from $600 to $5000. The $600 ones may work fine if you are light in weight (under 200), not abusive, and have really good blocking and studs to attach to. The more expensive ones have integrated seats and are very durable, able to comfortably handle 300 lb. Some of the more sturdy ones handle direct install of grab bars, no blocking required. I mean, this stuff is thick, like 1/2" or more.

Also, a true zero entry shower is very tricky and either requires proprietary enclosures, or requires a lot of floor work to be done in the entire room.

The thing that bugs me about the "all in one" people is you really don't know what you are getting quality wise.

BTW, someone upthread I think mentioned buying the stuff yourself and getting a quality handyman to do it. That may be an option, if you know of a quality handyman.

 

[Philliefan33]

This was one of the calculations that really struck me when we got estimates done. These contractors won't let you buy your own components, they supply all. Still, knowing the cost of their components and subtracting these costs from the total estimate, the amount of labor was about $14,000. I then ask how long it will take for the job to be completed, and the sales rep, with a straight face, answers, "with two people takes about 3 days." I'm furiously calculating in my head $14,000 by 3 day @ 8 hours a day x 2 people, well, that's about $300 per hour!

You are forgetting all of the other costs to the business. First of all, you spoke to a sales rep. He/she needs to get paid. Then there’s overhead: liability insurance, vehicles and insurance, capital (tools, office), maybe benefits such as health insurance for the workers. All that adds up to the “cost of doing business” and a good business person recoups that (or soon go out of business).

Whenever we are contemplating a large project, I expect it to cost us $X for materials if we do it ourselves and $3X if we hire it out. I’m usually pretty close.

 

[Ronstar]

... These contractors won't let you buy your own components, they supply all.....

There's a few reasons for this. A contractor wouldn't trust that the owner would buy the right materials, quality materials, materials that they were used to working with, and the right quantity of materials.

And of course they buy at a discount and want to pocket the discount themselves.

 

[freedomatlast]

Here's before and after on a bathroom rehab at a rental. All in materials and labor totaled $2984. The cast iron tub was in immaculate condition, so we left it. Everything else is new. As you can see in the first picture, there was no shower, so that was added in addition to all new ceramic tile, wainscoting, new vanity, new floor, new mirror, new toilet and new light fixture and paint.

 

[JoeWras]

You are forgetting all of the other costs to the business. First of all, you spoke to a sales rep. He/she needs to get paid. Then there’s overhead: liability insurance, vehicles and insurance, capital (tools, office), maybe benefits such as health insurance for the workers. All that adds up to the “cost of doing business” and a good business person recoups that (or soon go out of business).

Whenever we are contemplating a large project, I expect it to cost us $X for materials if we do it ourselves and $3X if we hire it out. I’m usually pretty close.

The other thing is expertise. I see enough posts on the Reddit r/construction to realize there are a lot of unexperienced people doing work. But if you hire one who knows what they are doing, it is worth money. They do it right, fix difficult problems (hey, that drain doesn't line up!), don't make a mess, and do it quick.

The challenge is finding the right contractor whose workers have that experience and use it.

 

[427Vette]

You are forgetting all of the other costs to the business. First of all, you spoke to a sales rep. He/she needs to get paid. Then there’s overhead: liability insurance, vehicles and insurance, capital (tools, office), maybe benefits such as health insurance for the workers. All that adds up to the “cost of doing business” and a good business person recoups that (or soon go out of business).

Whenever we are contemplating a large project, I expect it to cost us $X for materials if we do it ourselves and $3X if we hire it out. I’m usually pretty close.

This is something that is often overlooked by people. Everyone expects these benefits from their employer and also wants to make a fantastic wage yet refuse to pay anyone else enough to earn a good living.

 

[427Vette]

There's a few reasons for this. A contractor wouldn't trust that the owner would buy the right materials, quality materials, materials that they were used to working with, and the right quantity of materials.

And of course they buy at a discount and want to pocket the discount themselves.

Not to mention that when the products that the customer provides fail. They will no doubt put the blame on the contractor. I used to ask my customers if they would bring their own hamburger into McDonald’s and ask them to cook it.

 

[JoeWras]

Not to mention that when the products that the customer provides fail. They will no doubt put the blame on the contractor. I used to ask my customers if they would bring their own hamburger into McDonald’s and ask them to cook it.

This is huge. It may be the #1 complaint I see contractors talk about regarding customers on forums, especially the plumbing forums.

"Look at this <expletive> Amazon faucet. Cheap <expletive>. I'll get blamed for this automatic call back for sure."

Plumbers also relay a lot of stories of going to a home, shutting off a valve and charging just their trip charge of say typically $100. Customers expect that 1 minute to be completely free. Nevermind the gas, wear and tear, administrative, and knowledge costs involved.

 

[Jerry1]

This is huge. It may be the #1 complaint I see contractors talk about regarding customers on forums, especially the plumbing forums.

"Look at this <expletive> Amazon faucet. Cheap <expletive>. I'll get blamed for this automatic call back for sure."

Plumbers also relay a lot of stories of going to a home, shutting off a valve and charging just their trip charge of say typically $100. Customers expect that 1 minute to be completely free. Nevermind the gas, wear and tear, administrative, and knowledge costs involved.

Yeah, we have a plumber on Nextdoor that most seem to love but she ment to a house and the valves were so bad she said she wouldn’t do the work unless he agreed to replace the valves. He said no and she tried to charge him $50 for the visit/time spent and he wouldn’t. It wasn’t like she came out to do a quote, she was there to work and an unexpected issue came to light.

 

[Jerry1]

OP - do you have another bathroom so this one can be out of commission for a week is so? If so, I’d save money by doing whatever work I could do and be the general contractor for the rest. That allows you to buy the materials (the ones you want, if you want) and control the job. No need to pay a general contractor to do demo when you can do it yourself or hire it out to a handy person or a college kid. Same thing with the plumber - save the mark-up.

As for supplying your own materials, just coordinate with whoever you choose to do the job, but mostly, don’t skimp on materials. Especially the main plumbing valve. That thing is going to be buried in the wall forever. Make sure it’s good quality and from a company that will be around when you need a part. I believe you can get this done for under $10K.

 

[JoeWras]

. It wasn’t like she came out to do a quote, she was there to work and an unexpected issue came to light.

Plumbing and unexpected issues go hand in hand. The degree of issues goes up for each year the house ages.

On the bath conversion project I discussed above, it was the plumbing that was our surprise. It wasn't the supply. We simply terminated the copper with Pex and that was easy. It was the drain.

Because we got the beefy enclosure, the drain was set back about 1" farther from the wall than the very thin tub. Perhaps a thin enclosure would match the tub exactly, but who knows? In the last 40 years, standards have changed.

Anyway, that 1" landed the drain square on a floor joist. Argh, problems.

 

[427Vette]

Plumbing and unexpected issues go hand in hand. The degree of issues goes up for each year the house ages.

On the bath conversion project I discussed above, it was the plumbing that was our surprise. It wasn't the supply. We simply terminated the copper with Pex and that was easy. It was the drain.

Because we got the beefy enclosure, the drain was set back about 1" farther from the wall than the very thin tub. Perhaps a thin enclosure would match the tub exactly, but who knows? In the last 40 years, standards have changed.

Anyway, that 1" landed the drain square on a floor joist. Argh, problems.

This is the very reason why quotes can sometimes be so high on what seems like a simple job. Imagine if there were problems with supply lines, the walls were out of square, the floor was unlevel, there was a supply duct in the way etc. There is no magical way that a contractor knows what he is going to run into. I have read many posts on this board about how a contractor is doing a job and asking for more money. I am yet to see anyone say to just go ahead and pay him.

Your best bet is to find a smaller contractor. Ask around your neighborhood, church, barbershop, lumberyard for some recommendations. Don’t tell the guy in your first conversation that you are getting several bids, there is nothing more annoying than this. Simply say that you want to do your project and that he came highly recommended and that you have a budget of around $10K. You could offer to help and do the grunt work if you have any skills and tools. Let him take it from there. I wouldn’t mention that you have searched out the help from lots of internet experts and you know exactly what this should cost and how it should be done. Also very annoying.

 

[FiveDriver]

We just finished a full Master Bathroom remodel this past Spring. I will say that the price of quality tile, and shower glass has increased bigly in the last year. My advice is to get your glass installer involved in the design stage early -- their input can save a lot of time and money for you.

My knowledge of plumbing ends at the hot & cold handles, so I contracted the whole job out to a reputable demo/reno outfit that did some work in our neighborhood. Their tile man was a real craftsman. Very pleased with his work.

We did the whole 9 yards -- tore out the old 'phone booth' shower stall and tiny tub. Replaced both with a large walk-in shower with dual shower heads and body sprays. DW painted the existing vanity and she picked out a Quartz Dual Sink top for low maintenance. New Toilet and new Ceiling Heat/Vent unit.

That part of the job came in at around $12K, including some electrical work.

We also did the Closet Design thing to the Master Closet, and had a pro painter do the Master Bedroom walls and tray ceiling....that added about 4 grand to the total.

The way prices are going up in this area, we consider it money well spent. Plus we have the utility of the new Master Suite for years to come. Money spent in Kitchens and Bathrooms can usually bring back a high return.

 

[Badger]

We flew our son down from up north to remodel our 60 year old bathroom a number of years ago. It helps that he is a professional tile setter. We removed everything. Totally gutted it down to the studs. The hardest part was removing the built-in cast iron tub. The first few hits with a sledge hammer just bounced off of it until it cracked. Installed new drywall, green board for the shower enclosure, and cement board. Waterproofed the shower, floor, and walls to the ceiling. New toilet, sink, fixtures, cabinets and glass door for the shower. Total cost including airfare may have been about $5k. If I had to hire someone today I am sure it would cost more than $10k.

Cheers!

 

[Koolau]

This is huge. It may be the #1 complaint I see contractors talk about regarding customers on forums, especially the plumbing forums.

"Look at this <expletive> Amazon faucet. Cheap <expletive>. I'll get blamed for this automatic call back for sure."

Plumbers also relay a lot of stories of going to a home, shutting off a valve and charging just their trip charge of say typically $100. Customers expect that 1 minute to be completely free. Nevermind the gas, wear and tear, administrative, and knowledge costs involved.

Ohhhh! I WISH only $100! But I completely understand. Service calls have to pay for having a truck full of parts and tools that a homeowner is not going to have on hand. It also pays for the experience to diagnose a problem (maybe in just that one minute.)

When we hired an electrician, he charged us travel time - from his last job. $120/hour. YMMV

 

[rodi]

My sister had her 2 bathrooms redone this last year. In both she had the tub removed and replaced with shower. Acrylic walls like you describe. For the primary ensuite she spent about $8k (just texted her to ask). That included everything except the floor outside the shower. (Older tub was a 'soaker' that was diagonal extending into the room- new shower was a standard 5' rectangle and there was some untiled area when it was done. She had a handyman match and fix the floor. Because the tub shower was angled, she had the plumbing and drain in the wrong place - so the $8k included that.

The other bathroom was a standard 5' tub replaced with a 5' shower enclosure. It was $6k.

This is in pricey San Diego. But the company was from the eastern part of the county - so their showroom/warehouse rent is lower than a more coastal shop.

 

[pb4uski]

Yeah, we have a plumber on Nextdoor that most seem to love but she ment to a house and the valves were so bad she said she wouldn’t do the work unless he agreed to replace the valves. He said no and she tried to charge him $50 for the visit/time spent and he wouldn’t. It wasn’t like she came out to do a quote, she was there to work and an unexpected issue came to light.

I can see that both ways. Owner has a plumber scheduled to come to fix something, the plumber arrives and refuses to work unless the owner replaces the valves. Owner doesn't want to so says no. The plumber has done nothing other than arrive and refused to work unless the scope of work is expanded and made the owner's life more complicated because now the owner has to find another plumber. I don't blame the owner for refusing to pay the $50 trip charge... the plumber didn't do anything.

 

[Jerry1]

I can see that both ways. Owner has a plumber scheduled to come to fix something, the plumber arrives and refuses to work unless the owner replaces the valves. Owner doesn't want to so says no. The plumber has done nothing other than arrive and refused to work unless the scope of work is expanded and made the owner's life more complicated because now the owner has to find another plumber. I don't blame the owner for refusing to pay the $50 trip charge... the plumber didn't do anything.

I get your point, but the plumber came to do work. They didn’t come to do a quote. They found an issue that would have to be dealt with and the customer refused. I’m not sure of the entire circumstances, but I think it’s reasonable for the plumber to get paid for the service call. It would be better if they were clear that they expect payment for the visit regardless of any other work being performed. In a way, they did do something. They diagnosed a problem with the valves. If they were correct, it’s unlikely any other plumber will do the work without dealing with the valves. And, if they try it and the valves break, there may be a bigger problem (bill) to deal with.

 

[pb4uski]

This is huge. It may be the #1 complaint I see contractors talk about regarding customers on forums, especially the plumbing forums.

"Look at this <expletive> Amazon faucet. Cheap <expletive>. I'll get blamed for this automatic call back for sure."

Plumbers also relay a lot of stories of going to a home, shutting off a valve and charging just their trip charge of say typically $100. Customers expect that 1 minute to be completely free. Nevermind the gas, wear and tear, administrative, and knowledge costs involved.

When we built our house our plumber preferred that we buy our faucets and fixtures... we got what we wanted and they didn't have to spend time handholding us. Same for the tile guy, he preferred that we buy the tile, grout etc.

Did the plumber include in the story of the $100 trip charge also relay that the previous stop (customer or their shop or supplier or where they stopped for lunch) was 10 minutes away?

 

[pb4uski]

I get your point, but the plumber came to do work. They didn’t come to do a quote. They found an issue that would have to be dealt with and the customer refused. I’m not sure of the entire circumstances, but I think it’s reasonable for the plumber to get paid for the service call. It would be better if they were clear that they expect payment for the visit regardless of any other work being performed. In a way, they did do something. They diagnosed a problem with the valves. If they were correct, it’s unlikely any other plumber will do the work without dealing with the valves. And, if they try it and the valves break, there may be a bigger problem (bill) to deal with.

But the owner didn't ask for a quote, the owner asked the plumber to come to do work The owner asked for a repair to be made. The plumber refused to do the repair. The plumbers decision to refuse to do the work was the cause of their not getting paid so the plumber has nothing to complain about. It's unreasonable to expect to be paid for just showing up, doing nothing but proposing/insisting on additional work. I don't think the plumber deserves a trip charge in those circumstances. In the circumstances that Joe described of a stupid simple fix, then yes, because they did something of value.