Are you looking forward to self driving cars?

Driver assisting features are nice, and do enhance safety. But they are a far cry from a truly autonomous vehicle.

For example, Google's self-driving car can recognize a schoolbus with its stop sign extending. They are working on recognizing a flagman gesture at a construction site. This is just one of the many scenarios that a true self-driving car must be able to handle.
 
Driver assisting features are nice, and do enhance safety. But they are a far cry from a truly autonomous vehicle.

For example, Google's self-driving car can recognize a schoolbus with its stop sign extending. They are working on recognizing a flagman gesture at a construction site. This is just one of the many scenarios that a true self-driving car must be able to handle.

Not to mention various gestures from other drivers... :LOL:

Do self-driving cars have a "road rage" mode?
 
I'm sure this is being looked at, but these cars will probably need to have some sort of human-assistance/takeover, just due to the need for "precision terminal guidance" at the destination. Pulling up to a specific loading bay/side of the building/store at a big mall, edging up to a keypad at a restricted entry gate, picking a drop-off point that is near "cover" when it is raining, etc is a lot more precise and a lot less amenable to pre-planning than "go to 123 Elm St".
 
Not to mention various gestures from other drivers... :LOL:

Do self-driving cars have a "road rage" mode?

Some hackers might be able to break into the software and program their cars to be more aggressive, knowing that other cars will be in self-preservation mode and yield to them.

No, that is not really needed. They can just keep driving their old cars and "own" the road.
 
This is an issue that corporate aviation and airlines are becoming aware of in aviation. Modern jets are so automated that the pilot becomes a monitor of systems and spends little time with their hands on the controls. It is leading some accident investigators to believe that there is such a thing as making the airplane too easy to fly, so that when things go wrong the pilot's skills are not up to the task.

Still, given the demonstrated lack of ability of the typical driver if I had to bet my life on a human driver or a computer I'd pick the computer.


I think that the (IIRC) Korean plane that crashed in LA was due to the pilots not knowing what to do... they normally had the plane land itself...


But I could be remembering things wrong... I only saw the news a few times on this....
 
I'm sure this is being looked at, but these cars will probably need to have some sort of human-assistance/takeover, just due to the need for "precision terminal guidance" at the destination. Pulling up to a specific loading bay/side of the building/store at a big mall, edging up to a keypad at a restricted entry gate, picking a drop-off point that is near "cover" when it is raining, etc is a lot more precise and a lot less amenable to pre-planning than "go to 123 Elm St".

Or how do you send your car to go pick up aunt Heather at the curbside of Terminal 4 at the airport? Before you can take away the steering wheel and other driver controls, you have to solve all these problems. It's a lot more than just keeping the car at a constant speed and separation from the car ahead, and inside the lane.
 
Driver assisting features are nice, and do enhance safety. But they are a far cry from a truly autonomous vehicle.

For example, Google's self-driving car can recognize a schoolbus with its stop sign extending. They are working on recognizing a flagman gesture at a construction site. This is just one of the many scenarios that a true self-driving car must be able to handle.

Just saying that the cars we can buy now already have cameras and sensors all over them--it is not much a leap to think that their software can easily be upgraded to turn the "assisting" features into self-driving features. The designers are looking way ahead in that the existing cameras would be able to recognize the school bus too.
 
A couple of the 2016 Hondas (I'm sure this is not specific to Honda but these are the cars we are looking at) have selfbraking/speed reduction when you get too close to a car (or a deer, too) ahead of you

I'm curious as to how well things like this actually work. Detecting a car in front of you in time to apply braking shouldn't be too hard. But I saw a woman hit a deer a few weeks ago. The deer approached me from the right, but I saw it in plenty of time to slow down. It then crossed 3 lanes of traffic, a median strip, and another lane of traffic before getting demolished by a woman in the center lane on the other side. The deer was moving at panic speed, and came in from about a 75 degree (9:30) angle to the driver, who was doing around 55 or so. Would the assist software be able to detect this in time to slow the driver down without causing her to get rear-ended in the process? Or is that in the next service pack?
 
Would the assist software be able to detect this in time to slow the driver down without causing her to get rear-ended in the process? Or is that in the next service pack?

I'd bet that in unexpected freak occurences the software would react better than an average human. If not today, then pretty soon.

And much faster. Also, pre-emptive activation of safety features become an option. If you know you'll rear-end before actual impact a new type of airbag / foam can be implemented.

Picking up aunt Heather at the curbside of Terminal 4 at the airport? Go to airport terminal 4. Have Aunt Heather turn on her locator app on her cellphone. Car stops at nearest parking spot. No need even to know which terminal upfront.

Last millimeter precision parking in cargo docking? Use guidance markers.

Long way to go, but I'm optimistic :)
 
I'm curious as to how well things like this actually work. Detecting a car in front of you in time to apply braking shouldn't be too hard. But I saw a woman hit a deer a few weeks ago.
And, can it tell a deer from a kid? I will swerve into a car, or schoolbus, in the lane beside me to miss a kid who steps off a curb in front of me. The deer wouldn't be so lucky. I don't think these cars will be able to make those kinds of distinctions/choices for a while.
That doesn't mean that these autonomous cars might not be safer overall than one with a human driver. But even one or two freak/very unusual circumstances that cause a death and which a regular human driver would have avoided will grab a lot of public attention and slow down adoption (possibly increasing death rates overall--but that won't be as apparent as the splashy cases).

These autonomous cars will eventually cooperate and share information. They could "nestle" together in a "virtual train" a few feet apart on the interstate--when the lead car sees a problem, they all brake smoothly together. This would permit traffic densities a lot higher than can safely be done with human drivers. Additional autonomous cars can "break in" smoothly, and join the end. Human-driven cars will be seen as unpredictable, uncooperative sources of trouble. Eventually, "Autonomous Vehice Only" lanes will pop up, and people will want to be in them and going 70MPH while all the other lanes are stop-and-go.

Or, maybe not . . .
 
But I saw a woman hit a deer a few weeks ago. The deer approached me from the right, but I saw it in plenty of time to slow down. It then crossed 3 lanes of traffic, a median strip, and another lane of traffic before getting demolished by a woman in the center lane on the other side. The deer was moving at panic speed, and came in from about a 75 degree (9:30) angle to the driver, who was doing around 55 or so. Would the assist software be able to detect this in time to slow the driver down without causing her to get rear-ended in the process? Or is that in the next service pack?

This would require the special self-driving pickup, with auto-repairing windshield and deer-dressing extended cab package...
 
You guys are behind the times. One of my friends was born in India, lived 45 years in Canada (under-employed for the first 25-30) and at retirement decided he couldn't afford to live in Canada. He went back to India.

I went for a visit. My friend had a car. He wouldn't drive it there (nor would I). He said "NP, I just make a phone call and a driver comes over. I give him about $2 and he drives me around all afternoon".

He also says "I'm on a retirement visa, I can afford help like this and I'm expected to use it."

Will NA get on the band wagon?

Just kidding about NA, but I wouldn't drive in India. I wouldn't drive in NA (except for pleasure) if I could get someone else to do it for that price.
 
Just saying that the cars we can buy now already have cameras and sensors all over them--it is not much a leap to think that their software can easily be upgraded to turn the "assisting" features into self-driving features. The designers are looking way ahead in that the existing cameras would be able to recognize the school bus too.
Do these cars have the spinning LIDAR mounted on the roof like the Google experimental car? This LIDAR is a crucial sensor to let the car map out its surrounding. It still has to be augmented by sonar employed as proximity sensors, and camera vision to read traffic lights, street signs, recognize the stopped school bus etc...

The ugly spinning LIDAR is missing on all other makers. I think Google is ahead of everybody else in this area, even if it is still not ready for commercialization. If other makers know how to do without the LIDAR, they must be smarter than Google, and I very much doubt that it is the case.

An autonomous car also needs a lot of CPU power. If it is not built-in, a retrofit may be expensive.

I'd bet that in unexpected freak occurences the software would react better than an average human. If not today, then pretty soon.

And much faster. Also, pre-emptive activation of safety features become an option. If you know you'll rear-end before actual impact a new type of airbag / foam can be implemented.

Picking up aunt Heather at the curbside of Terminal 4 at the airport? Go to airport terminal 4. Have Aunt Heather turn on her locator app on her cellphone. Car stops at nearest parking spot. No need even to know which terminal upfront.

Last millimeter precision parking in cargo docking? Use guidance markers.

Long way to go, but I'm optimistic :)

Computers will react faster than people in cases one needs to slam the brakes, no doubt. But for situational awareness and reacting to unusual scenarios, no.

Why do you think Google limits its test car speed to 25mph? And differentiating different obstacles? What sensors can tell them that the "thinggy" in the middle of the road is a cardboard or a rock? A human mind can infer that the "thinggy" blown off the truck in front is lightweight, and if it looks square and tan it is a box and can be run over instead of slamming the brake. How does a computer make that reasoning?

Eventually, technology may overcome these issues. But I do not believe their hype that they will be ready in a few years.
 
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I think it was 60 minutes that showed a self driving car from.... hmmm Mercedes?....


There was not spinning top on top of the car.... it drove pretty well.... there was one time it beeped at the driver asking for help, but it was already past the problem before he could do anything....


I think that the self driving car can do 95% or more of the driving... the last 5% can be done by humans... as an example, picking up the Aunt at terminal 4... heck, you can be watching TV etc. in the car and when you get there you park and go looking for Auntie....


I do remember one guy saying on some video (and this is not exact)... that an advantage is that you can get out of the car where you need to be and the car can go find a parking space... or even drive around for awhile until you need it again....
 
I think it was 60 minutes that showed a self driving car from.... hmmm Mercedes?....

There was not spinning top on top of the car.... it drove pretty well.... there was one time it beeped at the driver asking for help, but it was already past the problem before he could do anything....

If Mercedes can do an autonomous car without the spinning LIDAR, and I mean a true autonomous car that can navigate busy city streets and not one that just stays on a highway lane, then they know something Google doesn't. I will be watching to learn more about them on the Web.

I think that the self driving car can do 95% or more of the driving... the last 5% can be done by humans...
I do not disagree!

The problem is that the 5% where the computer needs help becomes really problematic, to put it mildly, if there is no steering wheel or any other human manual controls. :facepalm:
 
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If Mercedes can do an autonomous car without the spinning LIDAR, and I mean a true autonomous car that can navigate busy city streets and not one that just stays on a highway lane, then they know something Google doesn't. I will be watching to learn more about them on the Web.


I do not disagree!

The problem is that the 5% where the computer needs help becomes really problematic, to put it mildly, if there is no steering wheel or any other human manual controls. :facepalm:

Here it is... yes, steering wheel etc. there... but it was driving around city streets...

"60 Minutes" test-rides Mercedes-Benz self-driving car - Videos - CBS News
 
To borrow from Malcolm Gordon, a demo is "like a bikini bathing suit, what it reveals is interesting, but what it conceals is essential".

In the demo above, the narrator said that "he [the researcher] punched in a route and took us for a 20-minute ride". In this article, another concept car by Mercedes was said to be "not even fully autonomous; it's programmed only to go along a predetermined path on the Alameda runway", yet its performance appeared impressive.

Same as some demo video from Google, what these researchers have done is really wonderful, but they are not going to volunteer what they have not been able to do, or what problems they are still working on. Some impressive prototypes were demonstrated as early as 20 years ago. Why are they still working on it? See excerpts below from Wikipedia.

PROMETHEUS profited from the participation of Ernst Dickmanns, the 1980s pioneer of driverless cars, and his team at Bundeswehr Universität München, collaborating with Daimler-Benz. A first culmination point was achieved in 1994, when their twin robot vehicles VaMP and VITA-2 drove more than one thousand kilometers on a Paris multi-lane highway in standard heavy traffic at speeds up to 130 km/h. They demonstrated autonomous driving in free lanes, convoy driving, automatic tracking of other vehicles, and lane changes left and right with autonomous passing of other cars.[citation needed]

The next culmination point was achieved in 1995, when Dickmanns´ re-engineered autonomous S-Class Mercedes-Benz took a 1000-mile trip from Munich in Bavaria to Copenhagen in Denmark and back, using saccadic computer vision and transputers to react in real time. The robot achieved speeds exceeding 175 km/h on the German Autobahn, with a mean time between human interventions of 9 km. In traffic it executed manoeuvres to pass other cars. Despite being a research system without emphasis on long distance reliability, it drove up to 158 km without any human intervention.
 
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I don't think these cars have a human mind to have road rage. :)

About the CBS 60 Minutes segment, I no longer watch much TV so missed it. The full video requires subscription to view, but I found a free page with a transcript of it. It is at: Hands off the Wheel - CBS News.

The transcript describes exactly why I think Google has a more advanced or at least more interesting technology. It is because they put AI (artificial intelligence) into their prototype.

Bill Whitaker: There are so many variables, so many different scenarios. How is it possible to put all of that knowledge into a car?

Chris Urmson: And that's really the trick, right? And that's what makes this hard. You can't just kind of go through and enumerate, you know, the thousand different scenarios it might encounter, 'cause it's not 1,000. There's an infinite number of them, right? And so the trick is to develop these algorithms that can generalize.

By generalize, he means "think" and this is how it works. The algorithms are trained to recognize other cars, pedestrians, cyclists, and animals from their movements, size, and shape. Each car's daily driving experience is analyzed, uploaded and shared. The cars can then make predictions and choices based on the collective knowledge of the fleet. Look in the lower left corner as one of Urmson's cars encounters a pickup truck that stops to parallel park.

Bill Whitaker: Now, how does the computer know that it's someone intending to back into a parking space, and not someone who's just stopped in the street?

Chris Urmson: Our cars have seen thousands and thousands of vehicles. And they get a feeling, you know, they get a feeling really for what the behavior of those vehicles are going to be.

Bill Whitaker: Really?

Chris Urmson: So its seen lots of cars backing up and so it understands if there's a space here, and a car stopped just in front of it, that means it's gonna probably back into that spot.

AI inference software takes huge amount of computing power. I believe that's the reason Google car is limited to 25 mph to give the computer time to "think", and also for the test driver to take over.

What are other limitations that these researchers are working on now? This comes from that 60 Minutes transcript.

Right now, the technology can't handle snow. Google's cars can't operate in heavy rain. The Mercedes S500 can't decipher hand gestures from traffic cops or pedestrians. Four million miles of roads in the U.S. must be mapped in ultra high-definition detail. The automakers call these solvable problems. In the meantime, the car industry plans to automate the driving experience feature-by-feature, what some are calling revolution-by-evolution.

Sometimes a sensor can have a basic limitation that's insurmountable because of the laws of physics. I recall an experiment many years ago with LIDAR. A research was conducted to apply it for wire strike avoidance by low-flying aircraft. It was found that the laser would scatter off old dull wires and let them be "seen". New and shiny wires would reflect the laser in a direction that may not hit the receptor back at the aircraft, hence would not be "seen". I do not know if they could ever overcome that.

The public is usually enthusiastic about new technological advances because it is not told of difficulties, caveats, or limitations. Experts know about the problems they face, but will always say that they can solve it. Maybe they will. Maybe they cannot. It's just not a sure thing.
 
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I think that the self driving car can do 95% or more of the driving... the last 5% can be done by humans... as an example, picking up the Aunt at terminal 4... heck, you can be watching TV etc. in the car and when you get there you park and go looking for Auntie....
If the self-driving car can do just 95% of the driving, it has only about 10% of the utility of a truly 100% autonomous vehicle. The "big deal" about a truly driverless car is the ability for it to autonomously relocate itself for storage and to prepare to move someone. That's what allows the car to be used in ways that are non-feasible for a car that needs a driver. If it can't autonomously pick up Aunt Nellie, go home to serve as the "second car" after dropping off a commuter, drive to the "outlot" to store itself out of the city, if it can't allow mobility for a person who can't physically drive, etc then it loses a lot of utility. If a car still needs to have an operator aboard at all times for the few unusual situations, then really the person might as well be driving the car.
Still, maybe the 10% remaining utility will be enough to produce some demand and advance the technology and the legislative/public acceptance until true 100% autonomy is practical.
 
Here's a video of a Tesla Model S auto braking (not autopilot) to avoid an accident with a car turning in front of it:

Tesla Model S Auto Braking Prevents Accident - Video

That was some pretty quick decision making.

I have thought of plenty of situations that would be very difficult for autopilot to handle. Crossing a flooded intersection comes to mind this time of year.

Google said they were parading kids in Halloween costumes in front of their cars so they could get better recognition data. They are thinking about it. They also want California to approve beta testing with non-professional drivers in cars without backup manual controls, including steering. So they're going for the whole enchilada.
 
I have thought of plenty of situations that would be very difficult for autopilot to handle. Crossing a flooded intersection comes to mind this time of year.

For what a Tesla costs I'd expect marine navigation capabilities.
 
I have thought of plenty of situations that would be very difficult for autopilot to handle. Crossing a flooded intersection comes to mind this time of year.

I don't believe any of these self driving cars claim to have the ability to operate under severe conditions like snow storms or heavy rain. It's currently mostly a fair weather technology.
 
How eerie - AI = automated intuition.

After decades of driving in all sorts of situations, I, too, have a "feel" for what a driver might do, depending on things I'm not even sure I saw (did I see the car's wheels turn slightly to the right for a nanosecond? Is that how I just KNEW the driver was going to cut in front of us, and was able to avoid hitting him?)

Given the collective "wisdom" of a whole fleet, and no human fatigue or distractions, imaging the "intuitive" power these machines can leverage.

I
Chris Urmson: Our cars have seen thousands and thousands of vehicles. And they get a feeling, you know, they get a feeling really for what the behavior of those vehicles are going to be.

Bill Whitaker: Really?

Chris Urmson: So its seen lots of cars backing up and so it understands if there's a space here, and a car stopped just in front of it, that means it's gonna probably back into that spot.
.
 
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