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Old 01-09-2019, 10:54 AM   #41
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Here's the common wall (garage).
That appears to be a poured concrete wall. Not cinder block.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:00 AM   #42
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:00 AM   #43
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If the smoke were coming from outside the OP would have noticed the smoke during the summer while the neighbors were smoking outside. Instead the OP noticed the smoke when the neighbors moved their smoking indoors, hence its mostly coming from indoors.
Just to clarify... You said "the OP noticed the smoke when the neighbors moved their smoking indoors". That's not exactly what I meant to say. I'm just speculating they are smoking indoors. I don't know for sure. It is still possible that they're just smoking outdoors and somehow the smoke is coming into our house.

It's possible that maybe the air pressure was different in the summertime and that's the reason we didn't get as much smoke inside our house? I don't know.

If the common wall had a leak, would I be smelling the food they're cooking? Because I haven't detected any smell coming from their side except for the cig smell...
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:02 AM   #44
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That appears to be a poured concrete wall. Not cinder block.
DH says the basement is poured concrete (the garage is on the basement level) and the main floor and upstairs are cinderblock.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:04 AM   #45
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The issue is a ventilation pressure problem. Air/liquid always flows from a high pressure area to a low pressure area in order to reach equilibrium. Do you have a closed heating system? Take a few switch plates off walls and check the common wall for egress. Obtain or make a smoke tube using a few matches/candle and a paper towel tube. Extinguish the flame and place the tube over the smoke near the switches/outlets/cracks. Check the ingress or egress of the smoke direction to confirm; with and without the furnace running. Then seal that area, switch plate insulators are available, cracks are sealable. Close or minimize cold air returns in rooms closest to common wall. Open or maximize cold air returns in rooms furthest from the common wall. If your neighbors smoke in the bathroom with a bathroom fan running, that contaminated air goes into the attic. If your bath fan is not running, it is a intake source and a venturi effect from your furnace will pull that contaminated into your living space. Check your kitchen fan as well if it vents to attic, minimize the kitchen cold air return. If your heating system is requiring air, it will pull from the easiest place. So make it work harder to suck smoky air and make it easy to use fresher air.

It will also take a little work from you because it is a ventilation system and there are many moving parts. I had similar problems on a huge scale when dealing with sealed areas/ old works in coal mines. Contaminants from a supposed sealed area was infiltrating active works of the mine, diminishing air quality. It happens all the time.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:06 AM   #46
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I think a chat with them might be in order (the neighbors). Maybe one on one (DH with the husband, or you with the wife, so it's not teaming up.

Maybe from the standpoint of "hey, for a few months there we were great, what can WE do to HELP get back to whatever that was, because it was working well for everyone."
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:28 AM   #47
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If the smoke were coming from outside the OP would have noticed the smoke during the summer while the neighbors were smoking outside. Instead the OP noticed the smoke when the neighbors moved their smoking indoors, hence its mostly coming from indoors.
Maybe not. In the summer, no furnace. Not sure if OP has central air, or needs it in ON, or even uses it.

In winter, with furnace on, the draw of the combustion could be sucking air into the house through outdoor cracks, so only now is it being noticed.

And maybe the neighbors are still smoking outside, but more discreetly. If they told the landlord no smoking inside, they may still be doing it outside.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:33 AM   #48
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The issue is a ventilation pressure problem. Air/liquid always flows from a high pressure area to a low pressure area in order to reach equilibrium. Do you have a closed heating system? Take a few switch plates off walls and check the common wall for egress. Obtain or make a smoke tube using a few matches/candle and a paper towel tube. Extinguish the flame and place the tube over the smoke near the switches/outlets/cracks. Check the ingress or egress of the smoke direction to confirm; with and without the furnace running. Then seal that area, switch plate insulators are available, cracks are sealable. Close or minimize cold air returns in rooms closest to common wall. Open or maximize cold air returns in rooms furthest from the common wall. If your neighbors smoke in the bathroom with a bathroom fan running, that contaminated air goes into the attic. If your bath fan is not running, it is a intake source and a venturi effect from your furnace will pull that contaminated into your living space. Check your kitchen fan as well if it vents to attic, minimize the kitchen cold air return. If your heating system is requiring air, it will pull from the easiest place. So make it work harder to suck smoky air and make it easy to use fresher air.

It will also take a little work from you because it is a ventilation system and there are many moving parts. I had similar problems on a huge scale when dealing with sealed areas/ old works in coal mines. Contaminants from a supposed sealed area was infiltrating active works of the mine, diminishing air quality. It happens all the time.
Yes some air could be coming in the switch plates and the sill plate (bottom of wall to outside).
I would use an incense stick to check for air leakage, as much less chance of setting the house on fire.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:35 AM   #49
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Maybe not. In the summer, no furnace. Not sure if OP has central air, or needs it in ON, or even uses it.

In winter, with a furnace on, the draw of the combustion could be sucking air into the house through outdoor cracks, so only now is it being noticed.

And maybe the neighbors are still smoking outside, but more discreetly. If they told the landlord no smoking inside, they may still be doing it outside.
We have central air, and both A/C and heat are set up to turn on as needed. The first detection of smoke was the end of September, beginning of October timeframe, so it's hard to say what might have been on if any. Right now, obviously, no A/C will turn on.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:41 AM   #50
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Yes some air could be coming in the switch plates and the sill plate (bottom of wall to outside).
I would use an incense stick to check for air leakage, as much less chance of setting the house on fire.
Funny you mention incense sticks! I got them at Walmart yesterday, and when I got home, I couldn't find our birthday cake lighter to light them with! (I was going to open the front door to see if it'll suck air (=low pressure)). I also purchased switch plate seals from Lowe's 2 days ago which need to be added to the switch plates, but I'll definitely check the air flow with the incense stick before we apply the seal.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:49 AM   #51
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Could possibly be that the neighbor quit smoking for awhile, but started back up?
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:53 AM   #52
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I bought two of these and paid over $130CAD each at Lowe's I believe. They don't do squat even when I put two of them together. Do air filters ever work??
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Costco has a more heavy duty one for like $400CAD, but I'm hesitating a bit. I could always return it if it doesn't work, so I should probably just do it, but I want to spend big money to try to eliminate the cause.


I didn't know about HVAC filters for smoke etc. I will definitely get one of those! Thank you!
They do work. As I mentioned - hotels and cruise lines use them and we had first hand experience. Walked in to the cabin and the stench of smoke was throughout. Cabin attendant told us to go away for an hour or so and he'd take care of it. Came back and the smell was gone and didn't return the entire cruise.

At home, we have a decent Honeywell and use it to remove dust/allergens in the air and it works wonderfully.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:01 PM   #53
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I didn't know about HVAC filters for smoke etc. I will definitely get one of those! Thank you!
You may need a filter that has activated carbon in it. What you are smelling is both fine particulate matter (and this is the majority of the issue, a very fine (e.g. HEPA) filter could catch these) and volatile gasses (which can't be filtered out, even with a HEPA filter. You need carbon to catch this).

I don't know if a furnace filter will prove to be a workable solution. Even with carbon in it, the pressure drop across a filter like that might wreak havoc with your HVAC system. You'd be better off with a standalone filter unit with appropriate filters. "For pollen and dust" won't cut it.

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. . . Nothing is shared between the units, just the firewall is shared.
Are you quite sure there are no gaps in the wall in the shared attic area? Builders get sloppy up there. Also, sometimes they (against code) even dump the exhausts from bathroom fans, stove hoods, clothes dryers, etc in this space (whether or not the space is conditioned). Maybe go up there the next time you smell cigarettes and see if the odor is greater up there. If that's the problem area, you can address it in several ways.

I think the anti-vapor primer you want is "Zinsser BIN", rather than Kilz. It does block vapor fairly well, but (counter to some reports), this depends on the roughness of the surface and the number of coats applied. If you have truly "raw" exposed cinderblocks (which are properly called "concrete masonry units' today, unless they are really made of cinders) or a poured concrete wall, maybe up in the attic, you may be better off using a product like Drylock (made by USG) that does a good job of penetrating the porous concrete. Drylock is sold as a waterproofer, but it also blocks radon gas. Check, but I'm pretty sure it will block smoke fumes.

Drywall will block mass airflow (just as a cinderblock or poured concrete wall will), but it will not do a thing to block most vapor (just as a cinderblock or untreated concrete wall won't. )

In a nutshell, I think you'll need a multi-prong approach: block the smell where it is coming in as much as possible, then run an effective filter (HEPA, near-HEPA, possibly also activated carbon) on your side of the wall.

Good luck.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:06 PM   #54
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They do work. As I mentioned - hotels and cruise lines use them and we had first hand experience. Walked in to the cabin and the stench of smoke was throughout. Cabin attendant told us to go away for an hour or so and he'd take care of it. Came back and the smell was gone and didn't return the entire cruise.

At home, we have a decent Honeywell and use it to remove dust/allergens in the air and it works wonderfully.
What they used was ozone generator, not an air filter. The ozone reacts with the smoke particles (in the air and already attached to dust and objects). It is hazardous to breathe, which is why you had to leave the room. It also is tough on many textiles, rubber, etc. They are fantastic for smoke odors, but you can't inhabit the space where they are running.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:38 PM   #55
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The issue is a ventilation pressure problem. Air/liquid always flows from a high pressure area to a low pressure area in order to reach equilibrium. Do you have a closed heating system? Take a few switch plates off walls and check the common wall for egress. Obtain or make a smoke tube using a few matches/candle and a paper towel tube. Extinguish the flame and place the tube over the smoke near the switches/outlets/cracks. Check the ingress or egress of the smoke direction to confirm; with and without the furnace running. Then seal that area, switch plate insulators are available, cracks are sealable. Close or minimize cold air returns in rooms closest to common wall. Open or maximize cold air returns in rooms furthest from the common wall. If your neighbors smoke in the bathroom with a bathroom fan running, that contaminated air goes into the attic. If your bath fan is not running, it is a intake source and a venturi effect from your furnace will pull that contaminated into your living space. Check your kitchen fan as well if it vents to attic, minimize the kitchen cold air return. If your heating system is requiring air, it will pull from the easiest place. So make it work harder to suck smoky air and make it easy to use fresher air.

It will also take a little work from you because it is a ventilation system and there are many moving parts. I had similar problems on a huge scale when dealing with sealed areas/ old works in coal mines. Contaminants from a supposed sealed area was infiltrating active works of the mine, diminishing air quality. It happens all the time.
Thank you for your post.

I'm not sure what a closed heating system is... We have forced air heating with intake an exhaust...

We have only one cold air returns on each floor, so we really can't do much with them. All of them are fairly far from the common wall (7-8ft?) Surprisingly, the attic had zero cig smell that we could detect. We had insulation topped just last year, so maybe it's not obvious? I don't know...

What do you mean by "If your bath fan is not running, it is an intake source and a venturi effect from your furnace will pull that contaminated into your living space."? Are you saying it would be good to run our bath fan (which goes out the chimney, which lowers pressure in the house...?)
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:40 PM   #56
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Could possibly be that the neighbor quit smoking for awhile, but started back up?
I doubt it, but I guess anything is possible. There are two of them.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:42 PM   #57
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Are you quite sure there are no gaps in the wall in the shared attic area? Builders get sloppy up there. Also, sometimes they (against code) even dump the exhausts from bathroom fans, stove hoods, clothes dryers, etc int this space (whether or not the space is conditioned). Maybe go up there the next time you smell cigarettes and see if the odor is greater up there. If that's the problem area, you can address it in several ways.
We checked the attic yesterday, and surprisingly zero cig smell. All I could smell was pine and some weird smell...
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:47 PM   #58
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You may need a filter that has activated carbon in it. What you are smelling is both fine particulate matter (and this is tha majority of the issue, a that a very fine (e.g. HEPA) filter could catch these) and volatile gasses (which can't be filtered out, even with a HEPA filter. You need carbon to catch this). .
This is what I was looking at as the next thing (although I'd rather we find a cheaper solution since we already spent close to $350 on worthless air purifiers (with such great reviews!!!)

https://www.costco.ca/GermGuardian-H...100284624.html

What d'ya think?
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Old 01-09-2019, 01:05 PM   #59
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This is what I was looking at as the next thing (although I'd rather we find a cheaper solution since we already spent close to $350 on worthless air purifiers (with such great reviews!!!)

https://www.costco.ca/GermGuardian-H...100284624.html

What d'ya think?
If anything would work, it would be filter like this. It even has an "ionizer" mode, which will increase ozone and do (in part) what a dedicated ozone generator does. It may also cause some lung irritation, I'd minimize the use of that, especially if my house was "tight".


Reservations:
1) You don't need the UV-C feature of this machine. It is for killing airborne bacteria and viruses. If you can save money by getting a similar unit without the UV-C you might save some money.
2) It may not have a high enough output to do your whole house. It probably depends on the "tightness" of your home (which might not be great,since you are having this problem in the first place)
3) Darned expensive. Stylish, pricey. You just need a quiet fan to push air through a very good filter. I'd think you could find something much less expensive to do the same thing. The key terms to look for are HEPA, activated carbon, the output of the unit (cubic feet per minute or cubic meters per minute) and how loud it is. A homely "console" unit might be cheaper, or a distributed number of smaller room-size units might do a more "even" job of catching the smoke throughout the house.

Try to be sure you'll be able to get filters in the future. A no-name brand might leave you stranded in a few years.

I think an online source might be less expensive, but Costco does offer the money-back deal.
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Old 01-09-2019, 02:02 PM   #60
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I have the $250 Honeywell True HEPA Whole Room Air Purifier with Allergen Remover, HPA300. I don't think I ever got the notification from the indicator that the carbon filter needs replacing. With it on I can still smell smoke coming from the neighbor. I figure it must help somewhat, maybe to make the smell go away faster when it stops coming in, when the filter is newer. Maybe two of them would be a better idea. Definitely better to try than moving.

Maybe you should find a pro to check for leaks. Not someone from a small AC shop who has a candle. There are probably specialists who can get the job done and tell you what to seal. If you smell pine from an unknown source then you probably still have a problem.
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