Do we need a formal dining room?

[Katsmeow]

I did in fact have trouble selling a house that had only a formal area and had no breakfast room. The Formal dining room was next to the kitchen so in a way wasn't all that formal. We did have a breakfast counter that we put in the kitchen between it and the family room but it could seat only 2 to 3 people.

I got feedback after feedback after feedback that people did in fact want a breakfast room (sort of like your nook at the very least) plus a dining room. It was by far the most consistent negative comment we received.

Now -- in the house we bought after that, it had a breakfast room and a formal dining room. We used the formal dining room for several years as DH's office and then used it as a room for your treadmill/TV after that. When we got ready to sell the house we removed all that from the room and were going to stage it as a dining room (we ended up selling the house before it went on the market with the room empty).

In our current house, we actually do use our formal dining room (it is next to the kitchen). We have converted our breakfast room (which is one end of the kitchen) to a seating area where someone can sit while conversing with the person preparing food.

Anyway, I don't know that it has to be formal but many, many, many people want two eating areas. So if you are going to use it as something else it would be better to make it something that you could convert back if you put the house on the market.

 

[JoeWras]

Anyway, I don't know that it has to be formal but many, many, many people want two eating areas. So if you are going to use it as something else it would be better to make it something that you could convert back if you put the house on the market.

Thanks! I think pb4uski and mountainsoft have that covered with their idea. First, the nook is bigger so we have a breakfast area for more than 2 people, which is the size now. Second, the "living room" could be a dining room, and it will have access from the kitchen. I also see this same dining room as a potential 1st floor bedroom, if I can manage to expand the 1/2 bath to a full without stealing too much space. This would require a bit of an adjustment to mountainsoft's drawings, but they are still in the general ballpark. Maybe later today I'll update them with these ideas.

So basically, that living room can be either a living room, dining room or bedroom as someone sees fit.

 

[meleana]

Our former home had one and we did need it for occasional family gatherings on die isl occasions. Our kitchen island seating only was for 5 and we did not have any more room for a kitchen table.

Now in our downsized cottage we do not have an island and we just have that big table in the dining area here. We got rid of the hutch and all the extra dish ware and Knick Knacks in it and kept the dry sink to keep our alcohol and wine glasses in.

 

[indiajust]

home depot and lowes do a fine job on the initial planning stages for kitchens. I have used both.

The future is work from home, perhaps homeschool room. Ditch the dining room. Don't need an open kitchen, but a way of blending quieter space that is still accessible. Think about your future buyer. And fit the kitchen into that plan.

 

[Retired Expat]

I don't think a dining room is necessary. We use ours once a year.

Well it depends if you have formal dinners. Most people don’t and if you are cooking you don’t want to be hidden away in the kitchen. Big dining room tables are in but formal dining rooms are out! Then again if you never have people over you can do whatever you want....

 

[Gumby]

This is how we entertain: People come through the house to the kitchen and sit at the kitchen table, which we have laid out with canapes and drinks, or stand on the spectator side of the island. The young wife puts the finishing touches on the dinner as we all talk to each other. When dinner is finally ready, we all adjourn to the formal dining room, which I have already set for dinner. There, we and our company enjoy our food and wine. If the weather is nice, we might go out on the wrap-around porch for dessert and after-dinner drinks.

 

[bluelight]

The layout in my previous house was pretty close to what you have, except my great room was an addition behind where your kitchen sink is.

When I remodeled the kitchen in 2011, I opened the wall between the small kitchen and dining room and added a peninsula. It made a huge difference with how the kitchen worked, and we could still have holiday dinners in the dining area. I was added in the design by a few posters on what is now the Houzz kitchen forums. There was a wealth of knowledge there. When I put the house for sale, it sold in about 2 weeks. Small compartmentalized don't make sense in a small house.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/kitchens

 

[JoeWras]

. Small compartmentalized don't make sense in a small house.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/kitchens

Yes. Small compartments. Yuk.

Thanks for the houzz pointer. It looks a little different these days. Worth exploring a bit. Nice pictures and ideas.

 

[pb4uski]

Here's another idea.

Add a wall from left to right between the dining area and living room...where the right end of the wall would terminate at the door latch of the current wall between the kitchen and dining room. Then remove the wall between the kitchen and dining room, creating a large open space for the kitchen/dining area.

Then put an L-shaped kitchen with one-leg on the left outside wall and the other leg along the new wall between the dining area and living room. The rationale for positioning the kitchen in that way is to avoid having to mess with the low exterior window on the bottom exterior wall.

I think there will also be room in that area for an island... a good-sized eat-in looking towards the outside (I'm not keen on eat-in islands that look inside).

You'll then have room for a dining area in the space that is currently the nook and the right side of the current kitchen.

The new wall between the dining area and living room along the top-leg of the new kitchen frees up additional space in the living room for a potential Phase II future master bathroom for the ensuite. You could take down the existing wing walls between the kithen and living room and add a new wall with a doorway across the living room about even with the left edge of the toilet, add a master bathroom toilet back to back with the existing toilet and use the rest of the space for a generous sized master bathroom and closet.... and you would still have a good sized master bedroom.

Finally, if you want more openness, either replace the load-bearing wall between the nook and family room with a beam and open it up or trim that load bearing wall back as much as possible

 

[JoeWras]

Thanks pb4uski. That's a good alternative. It is amazing how much space doors and passways eat up. I think closing that in opens up huge alternatives, as you point out.

I need to find the time to sketch these. Currently I'm busy and DW is using the computer with the Visio license. I'll get there soon, I hope.

The LB wall between the nook and family room has a bundle of wires and a plumbing stack from the basement near to the outside edge, so I can only remove so much without major hassle. Like you say -- trim back.

 

[pb4uski]

....It is amazing how much space doors and passways eat up....

That is why in our new house we only have three interior swing doors... all the other interior doors are pocket doors.

 

[Maidensong]

Amethyst's thread about kitchen islands got me thinking about our kitchen. Our house is 1980 semi-formal style. Pure boxes with 8' ceilings. On the first floor we got a box for a living room, dining room, kitchen (w/nook) and family room. Most openings are 3' doors, with a a few 4 to 5' pass thrus.

The formal dining room is 11'x11'. Sort of small. It has a door opening to the kitchen, and a passthru to the living room. We rarely use it.

My dream is to use that space as a bump out for the kitchen (which is kind of small) and also convert some of it to a bathroom/laundry room to make it part of a convertible "age in place" plan should we decide to convert the living room to a first floor bedroom. But perhaps my dream is baloney. I just don't know. What I do know is I am tired of the 40 year old kitchen. There's not enough storage. You can't unload the dishwasher and put dishes away, it is too cramped. The fridge is in a tiny space. Max 20 cu. ft, and even that requires a tall fridge.

1) Question 1: do you think a formal dining room is necessary these days? Especially one that probably could not carry a china cabinet anyway?

2) Question 2: here's my floor plan. Anyone have any ideas? Like someone else said, kitchen planners are hard to find. I'm open to ideas.

If you don't give formal dinner parties on a regular basis, converting the space into a new, bigger kitchen with eat-in space makes sense for how you intend to live in the house going forward.

The only problem might be if you need to sell in the future. Check with a local realtor and ask their opinion about what your plans might do to the value. If your neighborhood homes don't feature a formal dining room, I'd say do as you will.

We remodeled our place right after the DH retired early in 2014. We kept the formal dining, but use it very infrequently. Love my new white kitchen and we did take a little more space out of the breakfast nook to enlarge it. We never plan to sell in our lifetime and one of our dear daughters has already arranged with her sister that she'd like to keep the house as part of her inheritance when the time comes to divy things up. All good on that front.

So, it's your space. Use it to please you.

 

[RunningBum]

That is why in our new house we only have three interior swing doors... all the other interior doors are pocket doors.

I have two pocket doors in my custom-built house. I wish I had done more.

 

[Rambler]

We have a formal dining room, that I’d be happy to not have. But since we invested so much money in custom furniture for it back in 2007, we still look for homes that have them. (We’re looking to downsize a bit...upsized 2.5 years ago because DW wanted this house, and she now regrets it). Other than that, decorating is a hobby DW enjoys. Give me a kitchen, bedroom a patio outside to cook, and a place to park the RV and I’m a happy camper.

 

[mountainsoft]

That is why in our new house we only have three interior swing doors... all the other interior doors are pocket doors.

I have never been a fan of pocket doors. They're fiddly to install/maintain, and they don't really lock which I particularly dislike on a bathroom. And with no real handle to get hold of they can be difficult to open/close when you have your hands full.

Pocket doors also take up space inside the wall, limiting what you can mount to either side of the wall. You could probably hang a picture or something, but you may not be able to install a heavy shelf or cabinets that need long screws or lag bolts. You also can't install electrical boxes or plumbing in the wall where the pocket door is located (except for a "shallow" electrical box if the wall framing is thick enough).

Sliding barn doors are similar. While they leave one side of the wall usable, the other side can't be used at all. You can't even hang a picture there.

All of the doors in our house are standard three foot wide swinging doors. With only one exception, every door is in the corner of the room and opens against a wall. So even when the door is open it doesn't take up any space or get in the way. It's space we have to leave open anyway for walking.

Our swinging doors lock securely, and can be opened easily even if our hands are full. They're also easy to remove if I need to refinish them or something.