Female plumber - finally, in 2019?!

[JustCurious]

Meanwhile, the segregation - willing or not - of women into "caring" roles, and their avoidance by men, is most definitely cultural.

Most definitely cultural? On what do you base that conclusion? I am not denying there is a cultural component, but are you denying that women are naturally more caring than men? As a man I certainly would not deny that.

 

[JustCurious]

Which inherent differences are you referring to? The only inherent differences I am aware of, other than reproductive ones, are that most men are physically stronger than most women.

Women and men are equally intelligent, so any "avoidance" by women of intellectual occupations, such as engineering, the sciences, and so on, cannot be explained by "nature."

Yes it can. I am not suggesting that women avoid "the sciences," clearly the data shows otherwise. And I am not suggesting that women are less intelligent than men, the data shows otherwise on that issue as well. I am suggesting that women avoid engineering, and this is explained because generally speaking, men have better spatial abilities than women. This is documented by many studies.

While men and women do not differ in levels of general intelligence, gender differences do exist for more specific cognitive abilities. In particular, gender gaps in spatial ability are the largest of all gender differences in cognitive abilities.


https://www.researchgate.net/public...cing_the_Gender_Gap_for_Parents_and_Educators

Metastudies show a male advantage in mental rotation and assessing horizontality and verticality and a female advantage in spatial memory. A proposed hypothesis is that men and women evolved different mental abilities to adapt to their different roles in society. This explanation suggests that men may have evolved greater spatial abilities as a result of certain behaviors, such as navigating during a hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence#Spatial_ability

 

[JoeWras]

Meanwhile, the segregation - willing or not - of women into "caring" roles, and their avoidance by men, is most definitely cultural.
While there may not be that many male nurses yet, their presence is on the rise, and we as patients are certainly not the worse for it.

Men don't have babies suckle at their breasts. The nurturing and caring bond created is something us men cannot understand. Instead, we go out hunting.

Back to the general topic... specifically garbage collection. Since most is automated, it is really turning into a commercial truck driving job. There are quite a few women in truck driving, but still a huge minority. Many of the women are in team with their husband on long haul routes.

My niece's husband is a truck driver. He kind of suggested that lifestyle possibility to my niece. Problem is, my niece never got beyond driving a stick shift. She couldn't (or rather didn't want to) do it. So, the truck driving thing won't happen -- until truck drivers become managers of the automated driving machines.

 

[Amethyst]

We may see self-driving trucks before that long...makes the whole argument moot!

I understand that many men, and not a few women, are very devoted to the whole "women are caring dears, men are hunting brutes" thing. That is cultural, too, and serves various cultural ends.

We are so close to these things, that it is often impossible to pull away and see how artificial they really are.

Personally, even having given birth and nursed and loved a baby, I would pull all my hair out in chunks rather than do a job that involves physically caring for strangers, including children.

 

[JustCurious]

I understand that many men, and not a few women, are very devoted to the whole "women are caring dears, men are hunting brutes" thing. That is cultural, too, and serves various cultural ends.

We are so close to these things, that it is often impossible to pull away and see how artificial they really are.

And likewise many women, and not a few men, are in denial about the fact that there are gender differences between men and women that are the result of nature and how we have evolved for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Why is it so hard to believe that women are naturally better caregivers than men, and men have better spatial cognitive abilities than women? And that these differences are the natural result of how men and women have evolved? Doesn't it make sense that our culture has also evolved to reflect those differences? Some people seem to have an agenda to deny that there are any inherent differences between men and women and I just don't get that.

 

[JoeWras]

Personally, even having given birth and nursed and loved a baby, I would pull all my hair out in chunks rather than do a job that involves physically caring for strangers, including children.

Ha ha! I recently ran into my old "career test" we took in high school. I literally scored 0 on the nursing portion.

However, there are men I know who really do feel a calling to care for people up close. They run into a lot of cultural barriers, most especially from other men/boys who nag them to death for it.

And don't trivialize what some have said above. A new barrier for men working in close contact fields is now in place. They are a sentence away from losing their job and possible freedom if someone decides to call them out for a non-existent issue.

 

[Amethyst]

The sticky wicket is that little thing about male-dominated professions being - generally, with exceptions - better paid than female-dominated ones.

And little Amethyst, with wow scores in mechanical reasoning and really good math scores, being told that "secretary" is a good career path for her. While older brother, who freely admitted his little sister scored higher on practically every standardized test than he did, was encouraged to go into engineering.

And overhearing a male colleague, in the 1990's, whining that "women are stealing all the promotions now."

And Bobbi the plumber, who wisely abandoned medical coding (female dominated) for plumbing (male dominated), because it pays well and she's good at it, and in 2019, a plumbing company is happy to hire her.

That's why.

Scary, I know.

And likewise many women, and not a few men, are in denial about the fact that there are gender differences between men and women that are the result of nature and how we have evolved for hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

Why is it so hard to believe that women are naturally better caregivers than men, and men have better spatial cognitive abilities than women? And that these differences are the natural result of how men and women have evolved? Doesn't it make sense that our culture has also evolved to reflect those differences? Some people seem to have an agenda to deny that there are any inherent differences between men and women and I just don't get that.

 

[athena53]

I hope you are right, and it is no longer the case. It certainly was two generations ago, when I was 12 and entering high school. We were given standardized "aptitude" tests, which in my case resulted in extremely high scores in Verbal Reasoning and Mechanical Reasoning, and well-above-average score in Mathematical Reasoning. Nobody even mentioned "engineering" to me; in fact, the careers suggested for me were Secretary and Journalist.

I had similar results in the late 1960s (graduated HS in 1971) and I'm happy to say the reaction was quite different. Dad, an engineer, looked at my Mechanical Reasoning score and said, "I don't think *I* could score that high". We were given scores indicating how our interests and skills fit with various professions, neatly divided into "Male" and "Female". My lowest score was "Catholic teaching sister". No surprise there. The highest were engineering-type things. The guidance counselor, an enlightened man, encouraged me to think in terms of professions not traditionally female. He once said he hated seeing an intelligent woman turned into "a baby machine"- radical stuff for a Roman Catholic HS.

I majored in Math in college, found that I loved computer coding and took a lot of classes in Physics and computer science. Great stuff. It got me into the actuarial field and I had a wonderful career.

I really do believe that, ON AVERAGE, males and females gravitate to different things- but you need to encourage all interest in all kids- some will be outliers and that's great, too.

 

[HFWR]

As in many areas, we tend to have a binary, on-off, left-right, yes-no view, when, in actuality, gender-based personality characteristics are a continuum, black and white, yes, but with many shades of gray in between.

 

[audreyh1]

Yes it can. I am not suggesting that women avoid "the sciences," clearly the data shows otherwise. And I am not suggesting that women are less intelligent than men, the data shows otherwise on that issue as well. I am suggesting that women avoid engineering, and this is explained because generally speaking, men have better spatial abilities than women. This is documented by many studies.

While men and women do not differ in levels of general intelligence, gender differences do exist for more specific cognitive abilities. In particular, gender gaps in spatial ability are the largest of all gender differences in cognitive abilities.


https://www.researchgate.net/public...cing_the_Gender_Gap_for_Parents_and_Educators

Metastudies show a male advantage in mental rotation and assessing horizontality and verticality and a female advantage in spatial memory. A proposed hypothesis is that men and women evolved different mental abilities to adapt to their different roles in society. This explanation suggests that men may have evolved greater spatial abilities as a result of certain behaviors, such as navigating during a hunt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence#Spatial_ability

Well, I’m glad I didn’t listen to you about not going into engineering. Did very well in my classes. Did well in my career. Designed many things. Got lucky and retired early because I joined a small company and was able to make serious contributions. Engineering fit me like a glove.

I did have an aptitude test in summer science camp in high school and it suggested that engineering was a top option for me. Made me go look at it since I came from a non-STEM family and didn’t know much.

So some people sit around and discuss whether engineering is not a good career choice for women and maybe they should be discouraged due to their average lack or weakness in certain cognitive skills. Meanwhile I had a great career.

Differences in individuals can far outweigh differences in populations as a whole, so I’m glad we don’t force all individuals of a certain gender to only take certain paths.

 

[Music Lover]

The sticky wicket is that little thing about male-dominated professions being - generally, with exceptions - better paid than female-dominated ones.

Male dominated jobs are also more dangerous. I think it's 90% of all workplace deaths are men and often the wage takes the danger into account. Imagine the outrage today if 90% of workplace deaths were female?

And little Amethyst, with wow scores in mechanical reasoning and really good math scores, being told that "secretary" is a good career path for her. While older brother, who freely admitted his little sister scored higher on practically every standardized test than he did, was encouraged to go into engineering.

That was how many decades ago? Imagine the backlash a man wanting to be a secretary, nurse, or a day care provider faced back then.

 

[MichaelB]

Male dominated jobs are also more dangerous. I think it's 90% of all workplace deaths are men and often the wage takes the danger into account. Imagine the outrage today if 90% of workplace deaths were female?

Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.

 

[JoeWras]

Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.

While I look that up, "hold my beer."*












* - for our non-USA friends, "Hold my beer" is a common joke about men, yes men, who are about to do something really stupid, like pick up the jammed and lit firework.

 

[Music Lover]

Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.

The hard data on male workplace deaths is readily available and can be found in 20 seconds if you so choose.

The hard data on "poor decision making" is lacking though, and I'd rather see it before reach any conclusion...

 

[ERD50]

Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.

I don't have time now, but if you look it up at the BLS site, you'll find it.

There's lots of ways to interpret the data - I tend to think it shows that women are smarter than men, and/or have their priorities straight by not taking dangerous jobs. Money isn't that important.

Part of the point I was trying to make about garbage collectors, is that I hear some "social commentators" carry on about under-representation of females in certain areas, but they seem to have no problem with women being under-represented in jobs that aren't held in high esteem and/or are dangerous. Seems they want to have their cake and eat it too?

It all gets very silly, IMO. So women are equal to men in all ways, but then why don't we just have women compete with men in track events, weight lifting, tennis, etc? Very, very, very few of the best women could compete with the best men in those fields. So why do we say they need to be equal in some areas but not others?

Again, no one should be discriminated against in any way. And women (and men) should be encouraged to try things outside the societal norms, they may find that they are good at it. But it is silly, IMO, to try to force things too far.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Quick addition to the topic - I recently heard about a debate with one of those "social commentators", and the other person said "Women are under represented in prisons, what should we do about that?".

Crickets.

-ERD50

 

[MichaelB]

WADR, “Social commentators” is a straw man. No one here is making those arguments.

 

[JoeWras]

... about under-representation of females in certain areas, but they seem to have no problem with women being under-represented in jobs that aren't held in high esteem and/or are dangerous.

Back to the hospital. I remember it seemed that every nurse was female, and all the cleaning staff were male.

It seems like progress on both fronts. More male nurses, and more female cleaning staff.

 

[athena53]

Could be men suffer more workplace death because they make more poor decisions. I’d really like to see hard data before reaching any conclusion.

Some of the jobs with the highest death and serious injury rates: logging, commercial fishing, roofing, mining. Very male-dominated but I doubt they'd be any safer for women.

 

[Amethyst]

I'm really enjoying this discussion, but am so afraid of Porky coming along that I have been afraid to look all day...

 

[JustCurious]

Part of the point I was trying to make about garbage collectors, is that I hear some "social commentators" carry on about under-representation of females in certain areas, but they seem to have no problem with women being under-represented in jobs that aren't held in high esteem and/or are dangerous. Seems they want to have their cake and eat it too?

I agree.

 

[ERD50]

WADR, “Social commentators” is a straw man. No one here is making those arguments.

It was just on observation about some of the commentary that is heard quite a lot today. Not sure what makes that a straw man in this context. It was only meant to show that I do think this equality business can go to the absurd.

Equal opportunity - yes, always. Equal results, well, I don't think life is like that. No one should stop me from trying to become an NBA star, but I assure you you, no one would want to see me on an NBA team, unless it was for a laugh, but that would get old quick. Should old white guys demand equal representation on the NBA court? It gets absurd.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Getting back to plumbing... I just recalled that a few years ago I went to the local big-box place for a part for my well tank. I never worked on it before, so didn't know exactly what I needed, but thought I'd figure it out once I looked around at what was available.

I never expect the big-box employees to know much/anything in their department, but sometimes they know a bit, sometimes they are actually very knowledgeable, it's hit-or-miss. Anyhow, as I'm looking a middle-aged worker asks if she can help. I honestly don't recall if I considered her gender and thought about whether she would know anything or not, probably just went on my general idea to not expect them to know much. Turns out she was quite knowledgeable, prevented me from getting the wrong part, and explained why.

So they are out there.

-ERD50

 

[MichaelB]

“Social commentators” say all kinds of crazy stuff. We criticize them regularly here, but then when convenient, use them to make a point.

No one here is making any any argument about unfair gender representation in specific areas of the workforce or extreme measures to change imbalances. So why bring in what “social commentators” say, when it only changes the focus of the thread?

 

[ERD50]

“Social commentators” say all kinds of crazy stuff. We criticize them regularly here, but then when convenient, use them to make a point.

No one here is making any any argument about unfair gender representation in specific areas of the workforce or extreme measures to change imbalances. So why bring in what “social commentators” say, when it only changes the focus of the thread?

Just making conversation, seemed related to the main theme to me. I didn't realize (and didn't intend to) I was pushing anyone's buttons (was I?).

-ERD50