Honda Very Disappointing

[travelover]

........ Manufacturers today rarely create their own components, they simply put them all together.

That's not all bad. At MegaMotors, we made our own transmissions, axles and driveshafts and they sucked. But because we were obligated to buy "in house", year after year we were were stuck with their junk. I recall one year when we found a terrible vibration in a truck model that was traced back to unbalanced axle flanges, where the driveshaft bolted up.. Upon investigation it was found that when the price was set, it did not include balancing that flange. The cost was fifty cents to balance it and the axle division refused to eat the cost, so we continued to build a truck, that would cost $40K+ today, that vibrated terribly, all to save literally a few cents. That was a tip of the iceberg example.

 

[Bamaman]

That electric motor has a nice torque curve.

Your 2018 will drive on just the electric motor at 45 mph? For how many miles? My older 2012 will go about a mile at speeds up to about 25mph just on the battery. Still 38 mpg overall on a car the size of my 2012 Camry beats a lot of other smaller more cramped vehicles. The mileage of the new ones is just phenomenal.

Other than wheels, my 2018 has no common part with the pre-2018 Camry, including the engine and the hybrid system. Mine has a lithium battery too. Just on the battery, it kicks off at 25 mph. But when driving faster with a light pedal the gas engine's not running at all. Only thing that gives it off as a hybrid is the insignias--and it's silent at stop lights and backing out of parking places. It's really a neat vehicle. I would think the Highlander and the RAV 4 will be great hybrid vehicles, too.

A wrecker came yesterday and hauled my totaled out Civic SI to the junk auction. Never had any problems with it other than it eating the low profile tires. But it rode rough, and had very uncomfortable seating. I've had 2 SI's, and never liked the lack of torque--having to stomp on the throttle to get the horsepower.

 

[ERD50]

Other than wheels, my 2018 has no common part with the pre-2018 Camry, including the engine and the hybrid system. Mine has a lithium battery too. Just on the battery, it kicks off at 25 mph. But when driving faster with a light pedal the gas engine's not running at all. Only thing that gives it off as a hybrid is the insignias--and it's silent at stop lights and backing out of parking places. It's really a neat vehicle. ...

Not to get too far off-topic, but I am really interested in the 2018 Camry hybrid. I think it is the way of the future to meet mpg and emission standards.

With enough electric power to run on electric, even if only for a short while (so they don't need a lot of battery cost/size/weight), they can be very creative with the ICE. They can disconnect it from the wheels to optimize warm up (where a lot of the pollution is created) and let the electric motor take over, they can rely on the electric mode for acceleration.

That leaves the engineers free to design an ICE that is optimized for a fairly narrow range of speed/power, where it can be the most efficient. Let the electric motor/battery handle the rest.

No range anxiety, no need for charger access.

-ERD50

 

[DrRoy]

Our 2018 CVR has it at least to some degree. We wonder if more frequent oil changes would help.

 

[samclem]

That leaves the engineers free to design an ICE that is optimized for a fairly narrow range of speed/power, where it can be the most efficient. Let the electric motor/battery handle the rest.

So, in practice, how do serial hybrids like this work? Let's say our electric motor is sized at 73 Kw to give our driver the ability to accelerate at about the same rate as an ICE with a 100 HP engine, to climb a long grade, etc. The actual ICE in the car is sized at, say, 30 HP and runs in a fairly narrow range of 15 HP to 30 HP. It provides the 15 HP needed for 70 MPH on level ground, the extra is used to top off the battery if needed. The onboard battery provides the "buffer" and allows the drive motor to exceed the output of the ICE--for awhile. But at some point the buffer is used up. This could be after climbing a long uphill grade, etc.

If, for any reason, a car can't immediately accelerate the way a driver has come to expect, we have a serious safety issue. So, in the case above, if the buffer battery gets below a certain state the vehicle will probably need to warn the driver and, eventually reduce or shut down power to the drive motor until the battery can be recharged to some safe state.

Not a showstoppper, but not as operationally flexible as the "pure ICE" car where every HP is available for as long as there is fuel in the tank. Maybe a tradeoff worth making for those who seldom use their vehicle up to the limits of the installed ICE.

 

[Sunset]

Our 2018 CVR has it at least to some degree. We wonder if more frequent oil changes would help.

Of course it would help.
But it does get expensive if you change the oil every month.

 

[ERD50]

So, in practice, how do serial hybrids like this work? Let's say our electric motor is sized at 73 Kw to give our driver the ability to accelerate at about the same rate as an ICE with a 100 HP engine, to climb a long grade, etc. The actual ICE in the car is sized at, say, 30 HP and runs in a fairly narrow range of 15 HP to 30 HP. It provides the 15 HP needed for 70 MPH on level ground, the extra is used to top off the battery if needed. The onboard battery provides the "buffer" and allows the drive motor to exceed the output of the ICE--for awhile. But at some point the buffer is used up. This could be after climbing a long uphill grade, etc.

If, for any reason, a car can't immediately accelerate the way a driver has come to expect, we have a serious safety issue. So, in the case above, if the buffer battery gets below a certain state the vehicle will probably need to warn the driver and, eventually reduce or shut down power to the drive motor until the battery can be recharged to some safe state.

Not a showstoppper, but not as operationally flexible as the "pure ICE" car here every HP is available for as long as there is fuel in the tank. Maybe a tradeoff worth making for those who seldom use their vehicle up to the limits of the installed ICE.

In practice, these are serial/parallel hybrids. While the pure serial hybrid is appealing for its simplicity, the problem is that it is always converting mechanical (ICE) to electrical (generator) back to mechanical (motor), and there are losses there, which works against the fuel economy goal. And any energy that is buffered in the battery undergoes a further loss going in/out the battery.

So at speeds above ~ 25 mph, they mechanically couple the engine to the wheels to bypass all those conversions. Any transmission for speed matching does not have to be so 'beefy', as the torque for acceleration is supplied by the electric motor. IIRC, in this Camry, they don't use a transmission at all, it is direct drive from 35 mph on? Seems like a CVT would work well, as the torque requirements would be low?

Yes, the engine still needs to be a decent size to power the wheels and charge the battery or run the motor for extreme (but fairly common for some people) cases like long mountain climbs, at high speed, into the wind. A 30 HP engine to cover average energy use looks good on paper, but won't cut it for extremes. Not all averages are average? It probably still needs to be able to do 60 HP or so for those hills?

But it doesn't need to go from idle to 6000 RPM through 6 gears like we expect when we need to go from a stop to highway speeds in a hurry. So I think a lot of things could be simplified - like maybe no need for variable valve timing? Maybe no need for valves, maybe an opposed-piston 2-cycle could work (these are far more advanced than the 2-strokes we are familiar with). Intake ports at one piston skirt, exhaust ports on the other, so the supercharged air flows right through. And the pistons are offset somewhat from 180 degrees, which allows for some tweaking of the timing of the intake and exhaust port openings. See Achates engine for more.

-ERD50

 

[brucethebroker]

I think if you look hard enough, you will find similar "rampant" design flaws of some sort on every single car on the road. Pick a make and model and go out onto the interwebs and you will find a problem that lots of folks are dealing with but the manufacturer isn't doing anything about. I am *not* saying this to reduced the issue the OP has brought up (and it's significant) but to illustrate that there isn't a perfect car out there.

Agreed, but Honda, Toyota and Suburu really push their reliability reputation. Most likely, few would follow this thread if about Ford, GM or Chrysler, but it is HONDA-which makes it kind of a "man bites dog" story....

 

[AginMS]

My wife and I purchased a 2018 CR-V EX-L with this 1.5L engine. We made the purchase knowing some owners were experiencing the oil dilution issues. The reason we decided to buy anyways was b/c based on everything we read, our risk would be lower than most.

- it seems to occur *mostly* to vehicles being driven in cold weather climates (we live in south MS)
- it seems to occur more with vehicles being driven short distances (we are in a rural area that takes 20 minutes to get anywhere
- should anything go wrong, we purchased a Honda zero deductible, 8 yr/120K extended warranty

So far, no issues with our oil levels.

BTW, we purchased the warranty through another dealer in another state for around $1070. Hyannis Honda and Saccucci Honda both offer warranties for reasonable amounts. I believe you can purchase an extended warranty on a new car up to 6K miles.

By the way, this is exactly what they recommend you don’t do:

When starting the car, I'd let it run a couple of minutes for it to warm up.

The problem is, the car is not warming up at idle. So to run it without loading the engine is allowing more gas into the oil. Sucks for folks trying to defrost/de-ice in the winter, but again, I don’t have that problem here.

Here is the dealer “fix” for anyone interested:

 

[rayinpenn]

Gas doesnt belong in your oil.. I would never buy the car..

 

[golfnut]

I guess I got lucky in that I bought the 6 speed manual when I bought my TL in 04...



We currently have a 15 Pilot that is 4 years old... so far no problem but they did finally fix that transmission on new vehicles... they added another oil sprayer in the tranny.... reading a previous post I now have to worry about the cylinder cut out in the Pilot...

Still driving my 2004 TL with 6 speed. Great car (excluding the slowly cracking dashboard). Only have 103,000 miles on it.

 

[wolf]

Gas doesnt belong in your oil.. I would never buy the car..

+1. Understand most people do not understand how a car engine works.
But come on !

Simply, Oil lubricates. Gas a fuel, is also a "solvent". A solvent destroys the
lubricating properties of oil.

Without proper lubrication, your engine will eventually become toast. An extended warranty does not fix the problem. Good luck if you expect Honda
Corp, to replace your engine under the warranty. (Been there).

Never, ever, buy a car with this problem.

 

[AginMS]

https://youtu.be/nMX94zarLs4

Gas mixing with oil is more common now with Direct Injection engines. To avoid the entirely would be difficult with today’s engines. Here’s a third party video describing what it is, and whether there is any cause for concern.

And yes, I would expect Honda to replace the engine under the extended warranty if damage is caused by a known issue.

 

[AginMS]

One more piece of information for CR-V owners dealing with excessive oil dilution, the states where the fix is being applied has expanded. Here’s the latest:

 

[HadEnuff]

DW called and made an appt for oil change (after only 1000 miles on the synthetic oil). She was told they might have "the fix" ready to go.

yes it sucks to have to pay for this oil change, but whatchagonnado? Haven't decided on a longer term strategy yet. Will likely hang on for a while, maybe see of some eager beavers start a class action suit.

 

[xretro]

maybe the 1.5 is a two stroke!

 

[HadEnuff]

Latest from Honda: they have "the fix" ready for us...I gather it's some computer module that changes the richness of the fuel mix...not sure...I don't really understand these things,

also they are including a free oil change so we can start with fresh oil. Scheduled for next week.

We'll keep a sharp eye on the oil, although we won't be driving the car for about 4 months because we are heading to Florida in the Highlander.

 

[COcheesehead]

I moved away from Honda years ago when their designs started looking like something from Starwars. They used to have such desirable cars. I remember everyone wanting an Accord or something like the Acura RSX and then boom. New designs. No more RSX. Just pointy noses and stuck out backends. Just turned me off.

 

[RunningBum]

I moved away from Honda years ago when their designs started looking like something from Starwars. They used to have such desirable cars. I remember everyone wanting an Accord or something like the Acura RSX and then boom. New designs. No more RSX. Just pointy noses and stuck out backends. Just turned me off.

I think Lexus is the worst on front ends. They look like slack jawed sharks. BMWs used to be the best, but they changed for the worse too. Not terrible, but I used to love them. I don't know if they both have better aerodynamics now, or if it's just for style, poor as I think it is.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Latest from Honda: they have "the fix" ready for us...I gather it's some computer module that changes the richness of the fuel mix...not sure...I don't really understand these things,

so if you run rich the engine isn't burning off all of the fuel during combustion and it gets flushed into the oil pan

my question is how did this NOT trigger a CEL?

 

[HadEnuff]

what is a CEL?

 

[HadEnuff]

I think Lexus is the worst on front ends. They look like slack jawed sharks. BMWs used to be the best, but they changed for the worse too. Not terrible, but I used to love them. I don't know if they both have better aerodynamics now, or if it's just for style, poor as I think it is.

I agree. I've always rather liked Lexus designs, esthetically. Never spent the $ to own one. When I first saw the new Lexus front ends I too thought of sharks.

UGH-LEE...makes it easier for me to not spend the bucks. I did the sensible thing and bought the Honda CR-V with its more fundamental issues.

 

[Big_Hitter]

what is a CEL?

Check Engine Light

 

[Midpack]

It's not representative of all Honda models, for sure. But it is representative of how they accept responsibility for a dud. Everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after you realize you've made one that separates us.
Honda knows they have sold a lot of duds, and they don't want to do the proper thing about it.
I anticipate the class action suits will be flying soon. This is a lot of money spread out over a lot of cars and a lot of people.

You know what, you're right. I missed your point, my bad. Honda's are great cars, but that doesn't necessarily mean they service customers well when one of their cars doesn't perform.

 

[aja8888]

Sounds like a piston ring seating failure issue with this engine.

Also, CEL (MIL) only shows up if the car computer senses an EMISSION problem. In most cases, emission problems result from spark plug misfires, EGR valve failures, MAP and MAF sensors, etc. There are two 02 sensors (called oxygen sensors) usually upstream and downstream of the Catalytic converter are used to sense emission problems (on single exhaust systems).

The above is GENERAL info for gasoline powered cars. Diesels are similar, but have different control technology.