Honda Very Disappointing

[REWahoo]

Wow. Is there a website "somewhere" that lists all these makes, models and years that were such lemons - or had such prominent flaws - that one can review in order to "steer clear" of them in the future when buying used cars?

This might be of interest: https://www.carcomplaints.com/

The site indicates the 2017/18 Honda CR-V "fuel in oil" problem is a trending defect.

 

[eytonxav]

My son has a 2018 CRV and its a nice vehicle, but we were dismayed after reading about this issue on the CRVowners forum where the problem has been reported for quite some period of time. What I find infuriating is Honda taking a regional approach given the supposed fix is only a software flash. I think there needs to be a class action lawsuit or more owners invoking their states lemon law clauses.

 

[Chuckanut]

Wow. Is there a website "somewhere" that lists all these makes, models and years that were such lemons - or had such prominent flaws - that one can review in order to "steer clear" of them in the future when buying used cars?

Check the annual April automobile issue of Consumer Reports. They have easy to read tables showing the reliability of automobile systems for various cars. And often a list of 'Cars to Avoid' is included. And a list of older cars that make good used car purchases.

 

[RAE]

This might be of interest: https://www.carcomplaints.com/

The site indicates the 2017/18 Honda CR-V "fuel in oil" problem is a trending defect.

Gee, thanks ReWahoo! You just gave me something else to worry about. I looked up my 2012 Toyota Tundra truck on carcomplaints.com just now, and found out that there have been a fair number of complaints on Tundras made from 2007-2012 regarding failure of the air induction pump. Apparently it is part of the emissions system (sends warm air to the catalytic converter when the car is started), and costs around $3000 to repair. After numerous complaints, Toyota decided to extend the warranty on fixing this part for 6 yrs/60,000 miles........and I now have about 68,000 miles on mine. No issues with it so far, but apparently it is a bigger problem in cold climates, and I live in Michigan.

Hmmmmm. Any other Tundra owners on the forum, and if so, have any of you had this problem? I was planning to keep my truck for several more years yet (it has been a good truck, no serious issues), but this problem has now got me wondering whether I should trade it in sooner. Apparently the issue (if it is going to occur) occurs most commonly around 60,000 - 100,000 miles.

 

[dvalley]

So the official Honda 'fix' is really to get the engine to warm up faster and burn the fuel in the cylinders rather than getting washed down past the piston rings?

I think there are two things contributing to this issue, one GDI which can be upwards of 2000PSI of fuel pressure being injected directly into the cylinders and two the fact that this is a forced induction motor (turbo) and high compression too. The piston rings just can't practically create a strong enough seal. This is why back in the day turbo engines were lower compression and even then the oil would get diluted requiring more frequent oil changes.

I guess I'm questioning whether the warm up cycle alone will fix the issue completely, actually it won't because in that service bulletin it says even after this repair some oil dilution is 'normal' - but it will certainly help by burning the fuel more completely.

 

[davebarnes]

I had a 2010 Honda CRV . The air conditioning system went at 34,000 miles . It was a design flaw that Honda knew about but decided to ignore .

Not just Honda.
"Our 04 Sienna has 120K miles and until this, not one unscheduled service. If this happens, be aware that this is a common problem with the Denso compressor sourced by Toyota for the current Sienna and Honda for the latest Odyssey." - https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/11268/toyota/sienna/ac-compressor-blows-up

For us, personally it was our 2007 Audi A3.
When the AC failed, our mechanic said: "You got a lot more years out of it than most people. That will be $1300 to fix."

 

[frank2009]

At this point I don't think you have many options. I'd imagine you would not do well if you sold. Take Honda up on the software update when it becomes available. Change the oil as frequently as common sense allows. Good luck with this!

 

[Bamaman]

Not just Honda.
"Our 04 Sienna has 120K miles and until this, not one unscheduled service. If this happens, be aware that this is a common problem with the Denso compressor sourced by Toyota for the current Sienna and Honda for the latest Odyssey." - https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/11268/toyota/sienna/ac-compressor-blows-up

For us, personally it was our 2007 Audi A3.
When the AC failed, our mechanic said: "You got a lot more years out of it than most people. That will be $1300 to fix."

I get so tired of reading about auto repair shops taking customers for fools. You can get a compressor, accumulator and rest of the parts to renew the A3 A/C unit for $300-350 at Rock Auto. When completely replacing the parts, it's not a $1000 labor repair.

A new compressor and parts kit for the above 04 Toyota Siena only runs $200-250 at Rock Auto.

Give me a break.

 

[davebarnes]

I get so tired of reading about auto repair shops... not a $1000 labor repair.

I am done working on cars.
I did it starting in 1960 assisting my father and then on my own starting in 1967. Hell, I had 1968 MGB and a 1975 Fiat so you know much repair time I put in. I also rebuilt the engine and transmission of my 63 Rambler.
I quit in the late 80s when it got very complicated and cramped under the hood.

 

[freedomatlast]

So the official Honda 'fix' is really to get the engine to warm up faster and burn the fuel in the cylinders rather than getting washed down past the piston rings?

I think there are two things contributing to this issue, one GDI which can be upwards of 2000PSI of fuel pressure being injected directly into the cylinders and two the fact that this is a forced induction motor (turbo) and high compression too. The piston rings just can't practically create a strong enough seal. This is why back in the day turbo engines were lower compression and even then the oil would get diluted requiring more frequent oil changes.

I guess I'm questioning whether the warm up cycle alone will fix the issue completely, actually it won't because in that service bulletin it says even after this repair some oil dilution is 'normal' - but it will certainly help by burning the fuel more completely.

The fix should be controlling the air/fuel mixture so excessive raw gas isn't dumped into the cylinders in the first place, not raising engine temperatures to evaporate it out. This has to be causing excessive wear on the piston rings and cylinder walls.

 

[IMATERP]

The 2008 Accords with the 4 cylinder engine had problems with burning oil. If you brought it to the dealer before running it out of oil and locking up the engine, the dealer would check the oil consumption over several months. If yours showed what they deemed excessive oil consumption (1 qt/600 miles), they would tear down the engine and replace the pistons and rings at a cost of about $1000, provided the car had under 100,000 miles.

The dealer told my brother in law, Honda was trying out some new low tension piston rings with a new piston design that year (in an effort for increased fuel mileage) that led to increased oil consumption later in life. This was due to the rings coking up with deposits and seizing to the piston. The fix was kind of a secret recall, one that you didn't get if you didn't ask. My brother in law had this done to his, and the car runs like new with no oil consumption between changes after the fix. And the engine is much quieter now.

Frequent oil level checks are always a good idea, no matter how new the car is. That is, unless you buy a newer BMW, since they eliminated the dip stick on those. Now on those you rely on an oil level sensor and a message that comes up on the dash if you are low on oil. May be a result of fewer people popping the hood and checking oil level the old fashioned way.

In the 8 years that I had the Honda prior to the "loss of oil" incident. I had faithfully changed my oil each and every 5000 miles. My vehicle never burned excessive oil until the engine shut down. In fact, the check engine light never came on either. I saw the "silent recall" on the websites and wished that Honda would have given me a little more goodwill.

Anyway, 3 years later, I ended up getting a fair price on a private sale as opposed to going to a dealer in order to sell the Honda.

Regarding the RAV 4 Hybrid - I looked at the Honda CRV, the Subaru Crosstrek, and the RAV 4. Wifey liked the RAV 4 the best. The Honda CRV was too big and wifey thought the Crosstrek was a cheaper build.

 

[Moemg]

This might be of interest: https://www.carcomplaints.com/

The site indicates the 2017/18 Honda CR-V "fuel in oil" problem is a trending defect.

According to this site Honda CRV has had a lot of problems but consumer reports still thinks it is great . I have lost all faith in consumer reports .

 

[REWahoo]

Note the reliability data reported by Consumer Reports comes from surveying readers about their experiences with the cars they own. Careful we don't shoot the messenger.

 

[freedomatlast]

My vehicle never burned excessive oil until the engine shut down. In fact, the check engine light never came on either.

The 2008 Accords don't have oil level sensors and the check engine light won't come on to indicate a low oil level, so that makes sense. The check engine light primarily indicates engine issues that affect emission levels such as lean or rich air/fuel ratios, misfires and various sensor or wiring problems.

 

[travelover]

Note the reliability data reported by Consumer Reports comes from surveying readers about their experiences with the cars they own. Careful we don't shoot the messenger.

Yes, it is the old statistics vs anecdotes thing again. People that have expensive issues tend to have loud anecdotes - not that I blame them.

 

[Music Lover]

According to this site Honda CRV has had a lot of problems but consumer reports still thinks it is great . I have lost all faith in consumer reports .

My friend had the engine rebuilt in his 2007 Toyota Rav due to an oil consumption issue. He also made at least a dozen trips to the dealer in the first 2 years to have things fixed that shouldn't need fixing on a new vehicle. Plus things kept going wrong over the years. He has since dumped it and now has a car from different manufacturer.

Yet, he still claims that Toyota's are bulletproof.

 

[dvalley]

The fix should be controlling the air/fuel mixture so excessive raw gas isn't dumped into the cylinders in the first place, not raising engine temperatures to evaporate it out. This has to be causing excessive wear on the piston rings and cylinder walls.

You're right and I think that's part of the fix i.e. dumping less fuel when it's in an open loop but with newer cars the open loop is pretty short since most new cars use AFR sensors along with heated O2 sensors (so if the mixture is rich the computer should adjust it pretty quickly via the fuel trims). I guess we'll see if their fix actually solves the problem but I certainly don't like the idea of fuel mixing with oil and having more of a solvent effect than the lubricating effect on the engine parts. Two completely opposite things IMHO.

 

[ERD50]

You're right and I think that's part of the fix i.e. dumping less fuel when it's in an open loop but with newer cars the open loop is pretty short since most new cars use AFR sensors along with heated O2 sensors (so if the mixture is rich the computer should adjust it pretty quickly via the fuel trims). I guess we'll see if their fix actually solves the problem but I certainly don't like the idea of fuel mixing with oil and having more of a solvent effect than the lubricating effect on the engine parts. Two completely opposite things IMHO.

I wasn't aware of the open loop mode, the system seems to 'just work', so I never thought too much about it. Did some googling.

Hmmmm, so O2 sensors need to be warmed up to do their job. Recalling the old days, you needed to pull that choke until the engine warmed up, so we know about the need for rich mixture when cold.

I wonder if there is something else they could monitor to go as lean as they can until the O2 sensors can be used? I suppose if they just looked for an RPM drop, that would be too many misfires and they probably could not pass emissions tests?

This is where a 'strong hybrid' could help. If you can run on battery power, you ca let the engine warm up on some optimized profile, w/o worrying about drive-ability.

-ERD50

 

[dvalley]

I wasn't aware of the open loop mode, the system seems to 'just work', so I never thought too much about it. Did some googling.

Hmmmm, so O2 sensors need to be warmed up to do their job. Recalling the old days, you needed to pull that choke until the engine warmed up, so we know about the need for rich mixture when cold.

I wonder if there is something else they could monitor to go as lean as they can until the O2 sensors can be used? I suppose if they just looked for an RPM drop, that would be too many misfires and they probably could not pass emissions tests?

This is were a 'strong hybrid' could help. If you can run on battery power, you ca let the engine warm up on some optimized profile, w/o worrying about drive-ability.

-ERD50

In an open loop mode the fuel enrichment happens via reading other inputs such as the idle-speed (which in turn is controlled via other inputs such as air intake temp, water temp etc), TPS, vehicle speed, engine load etc and then using a pre-programmed mapping (range based) for fuel enrichment. So with the update they'll probably make the adjustments to this mapping. However, I'm doubting that just the open loop mode is responsible for increased level of fuel in the oil. I mean if that was the case alone it would impact a lot more GDI cars. There's something specific to this particular engine that's causing this, the fact that it's a turbo engine means much higher pressures in the cylinders...is where I'm suspect is the problem.

 

[ERD50]

.... However, I'm doubting that just the open loop mode is responsible for increased level of fuel in the oil. I mean if that was the case alone it would impact a lot more GDI cars. There's something specific to this particular engine that's causing this, the fact that it's a turbo engine means much higher pressures in the cylinders...is where I'm suspect is the problem.

Yes, I read that it is related to the turbo, and that in general, since they are shooting for such high efficiency (small displacement + turbo), that means less heat wasted, so it takes longer to warm up.

It will be interesting to see what they can do. They may be very limited by other design constraints. Maybe it will take a next gen design, but maybe they can tweak things enough to at least minimize the issue, and an extended warranty will cover the rest?

I had to check, our 2011 CR-V was the last year before they switched to GDI, and my 2017 Buick only has it in the optional engine, so we won't be facing these problems at least.

-ERD50

 

[HarveyS]

I'm sorry for those suffering this issue on the Honda engine. For me, when Honda did not honor the warranty on my Odyssey tranny because I purchased it used and it was originally delivered in Canada, I made the decision to eliminate Honda from my list to consider. This after 2 Accords, both over 100k on them. 5 cars since then. None Honda.

 

[jazz4cash]

You're right and I think that's part of the fix i.e. dumping less fuel when it's in an open loop but with newer cars the open loop is pretty short since most new cars use AFR sensors along with heated O2 sensors (so if the mixture is rich the computer should adjust it pretty quickly via the fuel trims). I guess we'll see if their fix actually solves the problem but I certainly don't like the idea of fuel mixing with oil and having more of a solvent effect than the lubricating effect on the engine parts. Two completely opposite things IMHO.

This hints at why I think the root cause has not been fully identified, like maybe the injector response is not uniform and consistent under cold start conditions. Some other downside effect must be causing them to avoid an across the board reflash. It seems like unmeasured excess emissions.

 

[eytonxav]

Aside from re-flashing all cars, Honda should be giving all customers extended warranties due to needless wear on bottom end engine components caused by improper lubrication.

 

[HadEnuff]

OP here. We are heading in today to get our free oil change and our "fix"...I was, evidently, the squeakiest wheel, and so I am at the head of the line for the "fix"....(you can interpret the word "fix" in a couple of different ways)...
I will be watching the oil like a hawk, and staying tuned to developments. I won't be driving this car at all Jan-mid April, as we are taking the Highlander to Florida for our Great Snowbirding Adventure.

At the very best, I suspect I won't be keeping this car for the 10+ years I'd hoped, and will probably take some hit when I trade it, as I suspect this issue will adversely effect the resale.
As my dear old uncle used to say, "screwed again".

 

[dvalley]

OP here. We are heading in today to get our free oil change and our "fix"...I was, evidently, the squeakiest wheel, and so I am at the head of the line for the "fix"....(you can interpret the word "fix" in a couple of different ways)...
I will be watching the oil like a hawk, and staying tuned to developments. I won't be driving this car at all Jan-mid April, as we are taking the Highlander to Florida for our Great Snowbirding Adventure.

At the very best, I suspect I won't be keeping this car for the 10+ years I'd hoped, and will probably take some hit when I trade it, as I suspect this issue will adversely effect the resale.
As my dear old uncle used to say, "screwed again".

I'd also be curious to know if you see any difference in power and MPGs after the fix and if they under-fill the oil after the oil change.