Kids in graduate school

[daylatedollarshort]

Oh boy, I made a big mistake and showed your post to my DW. When we married 52 years ago, she had a HUGE student debt. Inflation adjusted = $73,430 in today's dollars, or about double her annual starting salary at the time. We just knuckled down and paid it off. I was never a bit hesitant to marry her (at 22 years old) based on the fact her parents could not afford to help her at all and she attended school on grants, loans and campus jobs. DW says she's glad I didn't think like you........ we've had a pretty nice life together. But, yeah, I agree you're probably not the only person that thinks that way.

But we were talking in this thread about $400K type debt, not $73K. Plus the person I was dating was talking about buying a practice debt on top of expensive private school dental tuition debt, before even making $1 in income.

 

[Jerry1]

Sure, some dentists make $400K, some tech workers also make $400K and millions in stock options. But if you are looking at data and ROI, then you have to use a standard way like average or median salaries to do the comparisons.

I’m going to assume that the OP’s daughter is above average. I know mine is.

 

[youbet]

Sure, some dentists make $400K, some tech workers also make $400K and millions in stock options. But if you are looking at data and ROI, then you have to use a standard way like average or median salaries to do the comparisons.

Then you should have done this daylate. Calif tech workers are hardly "average" in compensation compared to tech workers across the nation.

All I meant in my post regarding your comments on ROI was that your statement was unsupported by numbers except for the anecdotal example you conjured up for your situation in California comparing a highly compensated tech worker out there with a BS degree to a dentist with 8 years of schooling. There's really no way to calculate without clearly defining who you're talking about and acknowledging that there will be wide variation from place to place and from time to time.

 

[Bamaman]

I lived with a relative while in college that went on to be a dentist. Out of his class in dental school, only he and one other guy came out without any student loans. But then he had to borrow big $ to go into a 3 hole office and hire a staff.

I've been told dentists are maybe the medical world's second most unhappy career--behind pathologists. Uncle Mont was having work issues, and he went thru seminars to teach him how to be a successful dentist. After ER @ 55, he joined the National Guard and went to Iraq and Afghanistan--and he retired again at 70 years old.

I have another RN friend decided to go to dental school. She worked weekends as a RN to provide for her basic needs--while in school. Her parents and friends still had to help her financially and take care of 3 kids.

I see so many graduating dentists going to work for established dentists because they don't want to go out and borrow $400-500K to start a practice. They often owe $300K on student loans. My dentist told me "you have no idea how much it costs to open the doors daily." Is it worth the investment? At what point does student loan and other debt break the camel's back?

At one point, potential early retirees have to make a commitment to take care of Old #1. And that's themselves. All our kids were given the opportunity to go on to higher education, but only one took us up on it.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Thank you everyone. Please keep it coming.

Just a note. DD hasn't asked for any money... she is 24 and graduating with a degree in Bio-medsciencesomethingIcan'tspell. Good 4 year degree bought and paid for.

My heart aches for helping her now or inheriting $$$$$$$$ when I die.

Please keep answers coming.

I did promise her I'd co sign loans through graduate school. Hell, she's going to inherit a bigger pile than that when I tip over.

Part of me hopes she doesn't get accepted to Dental School.....I am a resident of Minnesota and I think it is absolutely CRAZZY that we have one Dental school and SIX Law schools.....which are you going to need when you're tooth aches..... You can sue somebody any time.

I wanted to be a Medical Doctor since I was 5. I grew up on a farm and didn't ask for anything...We were broke .....My heart aches to see my daughter grow above the fence I lived under.

 

[Jerry1]

At one point, potential early retirees have to make a commitment to take care of Old #1. And that's themselves. All our kids were given the opportunity to go on to higher education, but only one took us up on it.

Said another way, one of the best financial gifts you can give your kids is to not be a financial burden on them. I hope I leave something to my kids, but my goal is to not cost them anything. Ideally, not even their time. I hope I never have to move in with them and that they can come visit to enjoy my company, not take care of me. We’ll see how it goes. No small feat.

 

[ElizabethT]

Been there done that. We paid for both DD's 4 year degrees, grad school for both was on them. One DD got her teaching Master's, one a JD. The DD with the JD lived on beans and rice for the 8 years it took her to pay off her law school loans, vowed to never be in debt again, continued to live on rice and beans, and now has one million in savings. She is not yet 40, and I Do. Not. Believe. this would have happened had she not HAD to pay for her own JD.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Then you should have done this daylate. Calif tech workers are hardly "average" in compensation compared to tech workers across the nation.

All I meant in my post regarding your comments on ROI was that your statement was unsupported by numbers except for the anecdotal example you conjured up for your situation in California comparing a highly compensated tech worker out there with a BS degree to a dentist with 8 years of schooling. There's really no way to calculate without clearly defining who you're talking about and acknowledging that there will be wide variation from place to place and from time to time.

Google has plenty of lengthy articles on is dental school worth the cost with specific numbers, like these, so there is no need or reason for me to do that kind of research myself to reply to your question. It is not a degree we'd encourage or choose to fund for our kids, but YMMV. Still the same kind of numbers, adjusted for inflation, I had to think about with the dental student I knew from my college days.

https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-dental-school-debt/

https://www.yahoo.com/now/dental-school-worth-student-debt-170950375.html

 

[youbet]

Google has plenty of lengthy articles on is dental school worth the cost with specific numbers, like these, so there is no need or reason for me to do that kind of research myself to reply to your question. It is not a degree we'd encourage or choose to fund for our kids, but YMMV. Still the same kind of numbers, adjusted for inflation, I had to think about with the dental student I knew from my college days.

https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-dental-school-debt/

https://www.yahoo.com/now/dental-school-worth-student-debt-170950375.html

Well, we're long past the time to drop this.

My point was your comment regarding ROI. I find it unsupported by anything you've posted. And so be it.......

Bye......

 

[lauradrops]

My 2 sons were told early on that their Masters would be on them.

My older son's job is paying for his Masters Degree, but he is doing it part time.

My younger son paid his own way through Physicians Assistant school, but was fortunate enough to get into a great in state program for a great value. He still came out with 109k in loans.

Younger son negotiated tuition repayment as part of his first job out of school. It wasn't a lot, but the job chipped in $500 a month toward student loan repayment. He did start out earning over 6 figures so the loan hasn't been too bad.

 

[youbet]

But we were talking in this thread about $400K type debt, not $73K. Plus the person I was dating was talking about buying a practice debt on top of expensive private school dental tuition debt, before even making $1 in income.

But you emphasized that you finished without debt. Sure, you are superior to us plebeians, but, WTF, we did the best we could, working hard and paying back later what we had to borrow then.

I don't think I'm the only person hesitant to marry someone with a huge amount of debt, especially when I had none after graduating from college.

Congrats to you and a low bow as I humbly back away.......

 

[Gumby]

There is no need to get snarky with each other. We all made our respective ways through life as best we could. And I'm sure that path was different for each of us. But we're here now and enjoying life, so let's be friendly.

 

[livingalmostlarge]

I don't think that you need to help but if you want to help then go for it. Let me preface by saying I'll be contrarian on this post and say I would help my kiddo no matter what.

But I guess the question is how much were you thinking of helping? How would this affect you FIRE? I mean if you are FIRE you are retiring early and being financial independent and you wrote "she'll inherit more when i tip." If that's the case then what is holding back helping?

Is it that you don't want to work 4 more years? Is it that you can't help each kid equally? Is it that you feel if you help her now then help her brother equally now? Or would you true them up in 30 years? Is it that you aren't really FIRE and not at all there and you need these years to get there?

For me? I would just work a couple more years and help both kiddos out equally. BUT you don't have to do this and I know this is likely the unpopular opinion on a ER forum. It's entirely up to you and only you can judge the situation.

Of course if you wanted to post numbers and get feedback like "Sure you can do it. Or nah that's crazy. Or it will add 2 years to the magic number." Perhaps it's worth it.

Maybe the answer is you can only help what you want to help with. Either way congrats on finishing undergrad loan free!

My DH has always said he's working until DK are done with undergrad. I know we are FI, but RE is just not happening. So we might as well help our out no matter what. If mine who are 12 and 9 decide to go on we can reassess our position at that time. And that time is NOW for you.

Do you have enough to fire? Do you have to keep working? What happens if you do work longer?

 

[Stormy Kromer]

OP here.

Thanks for the replies. DW and I are FIRED, age 56 & 61. No plans to go back to work. Investment assets in the mid 7 figures and a modest lifestyle. Annual living expense including tax & health insurance is $60k.

If we help financially it would be co-signing loans. Once she graduates and the payments start is when we could potentially start paying. This would be at least 4 years, maybe 5. At that point in our lives we would just start gifting to each of our two adult children in equal amounts. Kind of an early inheritance. She can use hers to apply to her loans.

I should point out that she graduates in December with her BA in Biomedical Science. Most of her classmates are applying for either medical school, dental school or pharmacy school. Just because she is going to apply for dental school does not mean she'll get in, even with good grades. There are several applicants for every opening.

We don't live close enough to the U of MN for her to live at home. She mentioned applying at several other schools throughout the country, it costs several hundred dollars just to apply....

I'm carefully supporting her, but I wouldn't be heart broken if she doesn't go to dental school and chooses to use her degree in another field. She can pursue a Masters then Phd while she's working if she would like. Dental school is a hard full time job.

As a parent part of me wants to encourage her to pursue her goals full speed ahead! Another part of me (a bigger part) wants to protect her from crippling debt. I think of things like "what if she gets through 3 years and hates it ?" you still have the debt and no large income to pay it back with.

 

[38Chevy454]

OP here.

If we help financially it would be co-signing loans. Once she graduates and the payments start is when we could potentially start paying. This would be at least 4 years, maybe 5. At that point in our lives we would just start gifting to each of our two adult children in equal amounts. Kind of an early inheritance. She can use hers to apply to her loans.

After reading this thread and sorting out the info, I think your idea above is a good one. You are good parents to your kids, getting them to this point in life without debt. That's a big help already.

 

[finnski1]

OP here.

Thanks for the replies. DW and I are FIRED, age 56 & 61. No plans to go back to work. Investment assets in the mid 7 figures and a modest lifestyle. Annual living expense including tax & health insurance is $60k.

If we help financially it would be co-signing loans. Once she graduates and the payments start is when we could potentially start paying. This would be at least 4 years, maybe 5. At that point in our lives we would just start gifting to each of our two adult children in equal amounts. Kind of an early inheritance. She can use hers to apply to her loans.

I should point out that she graduates in December with her BA in Biomedical Science. Most of her classmates are applying for either medical school, dental school or pharmacy school. Just because she is going to apply for dental school does not mean she'll get in, even with good grades. There are several applicants for every opening.

We don't live close enough to the U of MN for her to live at home. She mentioned applying at several other schools throughout the country, it costs several hundred dollars just to apply....

I'm carefully supporting her, but I wouldn't be heart broken if she doesn't go to dental school and chooses to use her degree in another field. She can pursue a Masters then Phd while she's working if she would like. Dental school is a hard full time job.

As a parent part of me wants to encourage her to pursue her goals full speed ahead! Another part of me (a bigger part) wants to protect her from crippling debt. I think of things like "what if she gets through 3 years and hates it ?" you still have the debt and no large income to pay it back with.

Kudos to you. These are all sensible and well thought out reactions. You have already provided a great boost in life for DD. I am sure you will be there to continue to do so if and when you feel it is necessary. You have already given her the best gifts in life.

 

[ncbill]

This is what my daughter joined and she made money. She is an RN. It was a little confusing if there is a hold on dental degrees right now but she can check it out. https://www.usphs.gov/professions/dentist/

I coincidentally just talk to a guy whose daughter joined the navy and will get her medical degree while serving. She approached it that way in order to pay her own way.

DD likes the USPHS and will likely serve her 20 year and out service.

Something similar:

"The Health Professions Scholarship Program (HPSP) offers prospective military physicians (M.D. or D.O.), dentists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, optometrists, psychologists, pharmacists, and veterinarians a paid medical education in exchange for service as a commissioned medical department officer. Programs are available in the United States Army, the United States Navy, and the United States Air Force."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Professions_Scholarship_Program

 

[savory]

Something similar:

"The Health Professions Scholarship Program (HPSP) offers prospective military physicians (M.D. or D.O.), dentists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants, optometrists, psychologists, pharmacists, and veterinarians a paid medical education in exchange for service as a commissioned medical department officer. Programs are available in the United States Army, the United States Navy, and the United States Air Force."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Professions_Scholarship_Program

USPHS does not pay for school. They hire the employee while in school. The employee remains a full time student but is provided a full salary and benefits at the lowest level employee. They are building retirement time, vacation, etc for the 20 year and out program. For this offer, USPHS requires double the time of employment they paid for while in school. After serving your time, a Co-Step can stay or leave like any job.

USPHS is made up of about 5,000 people. They are considered the 7th branch of the military. They go through an officers type of basic training but no firearm training. Key groups they support are Indian Health service, Bureau of Federal Prisons, CDC, etc. They are a 24/7 on-call arm of the government, like all of our military. Ultimately, they report to the Surgeon General and have been part of USA government since about 1860. Like I expect most of you reading this, I did not know this either.

Here is a link from them that does a much better job than me explaining. https://dcp.psc.gov/OSG/hso/documents/USPHS_HSO_COSTEP_Flyer.pdf

 

[ncbill]

USPHS does not pay for school. They hire the employee while in school. The employee remains a full time student but is provided a full salary and benefits at the lowest level employee. They are building retirement time, vacation, etc for the 20 year and out program. For this offer, USPHS requires double the time of employment they paid for while in school. After serving your time, a Co-Step can stay or leave like any job.

USPHS is made up of about 5,000 people. They are considered the 7th branch of the military. They go through an officers type of basic training but no firearm training. Key groups they support are Indian Health service, Bureau of Federal Prisons, CDC, etc. They are a 24/7 on-call arm of the government, like all of our military. Ultimately, they report to the Surgeon General and have been part of USA government since about 1860. Like I expect most of you reading this, I did not know this either.

Here is a link from them that does a much better job than me explaining. https://dcp.psc.gov/OSG/hso/documents/USPHS_HSO_COSTEP_Flyer.pdf

Then the OP would want to steer their kid to the HPSP instead since the latter does pay for school.

 

[savory]

Then the OP would want to steer their kid to the HPSP instead since the latter does pay for school.

If it were me, I would look at the entirety of both programs. It is a total payback decision in my mind, which includes financials, lifestyle, etc.

 

[HarveyS]

I did promise her I'd co sign loans through graduate school.

Well, I wouldn't have done that (co-sign). If she cannot get the loans on her own that's indicative that someone/some entity questions her ability to complete school and be successful. From her history it seems to me like she has matured and knows what she wants and will follow thru and be very successful.

However, if you don't want to re-negotiate that promise, make sure you get sufficient life insurance and disability insurance on HER. Fully understand what you are signing up for with a co-sign and protect yourself and your nest egg.

 

[tulak]

I'm most likely going to have the same issue with DD.

We always agreed to pay for DS/DD's undergraduate degree. DS is done and DD has one more year. DD picked a human sciences major and we have no idea where she will focus afterwards, but there's a good chance that it will involve graduate school. If she decides to go to grad school, then she expects she'll have to figure out how to pay for it. I haven't made any commitment to helping out after she's done with her undergrad degree.

Personally, I'm hoping that she can get an internship or work experience before going to grad school, but it's her life and she needs to make those choices herself. Of course, I'll support her and try to provide good feedback when asked.

As for helping out if she goes to grad school, I don't know what I'll do. If DD does go to grad school, I suspect that I'll let her figure out how to pay for it, but I might help out here and there as I can. Or I can give her a big present at graduation to help pay for the loans? And I don't have to pay for all of it and I suspect any contribution will be appreciated.

I figure I'll see where I'm at and if I can help out some, then that'd be great. I suspect both DS/DD will inherit quite a bit while I'm gone, so I try to give more now instead of later, at least up to the point where I can afford it.

I think the biggest gift we can give our kids is a strong start in life. It's great that you are thinking about this for your DD.

 

[ncbill]

If it were me, I would look at the entirety of both programs. It is a total payback decision in my mind, which includes financials, lifestyle, etc.

Tuition is normally going to be a heck of a lot more than living expenses for the professional programs we're discussing.

 

[KarenF]

We have a similar situation. We also had a set amount for each kid. Youngest son got an Engineering Degree and wanted to go to grad school. He got a free ride plus a stipend, got his Masters and we gave him the rest of the money. He actually had some left in his 529 as well that we transferred to his teacher wife for her continuing ed. Oldest son took 6 years to get through undergrad (took a year off and changed majors several times) and burned through almost all his money. Then he went to grad school and got a Masters. He used the rest of the money and paid for the rest of grad school by working full time and going to school at night. He got some tuition reimbursement from his employer. Now he is in Law School. He is working full time at a law firm and going to Law School at night. It is rough - he has two small kids, but he is making it work. We have been loaning him the tuition money at a very reasonable rate, with a written loan agreement, and he will pay us back after he graduates - it is the best we can do.

FO OP - I have a friend who has a dentist son. Being a dentist can be very lucrative, but some areas, especially around dental schools, are saturated and setting up or buying into a practice is prohibitively expensive.

 

[mrmonktu]

I am NOT in your shoes but can offer some perspective, I think. I am a retired faculty member from a School of Pharmacy. The majority of our students had school loans comparable to what you are expecting - ~100K/year x 4 years in the program. This is the norm in health professions education, NOT the exception, and it should be easy for your daughter to get the loans that she needs for both school and living expenses. You have given her the generous gift of a solid undergraduate education; she should have no trouble both acquiring and paying off a student loan for dental school.