Need Your Air Conditioner Serviced? Good Luck...

[Montecfo]

I also hear the new generations of refrigerants are not as efficient as the old.

This is certainly bad business. Add onto that the risk of governments obsoleting HVAC systems because the fuel used is not politically correct.

Just heaping costs on consumers for dubious benefit.

 

[latexman]

I also hear the new generations of refrigerants are not as efficient as the old.

I hear different. R32 is supposedly the next generation home A/C refrigerant. It takes 20% less R32 per ton of cooling than R410A. And, R32 has a Global Warming Potential (GWP) of 675, roughly 30% lower than that of R410A. So, R32 is a better alternative from thermodynamic and environmental standpoints than R410A.

I'm disappointed in the HVAC industry, since R410A is 50% R32 and 50% R125. They must have known about R32 before R410A was even created. I think they put too much weight on the fact that R32 is "mildly flammable".

But here we are. It looks like environmental concerns (i.e. our future survival) is now beating out safety concerns.

 

[JoeWras]

I'm disappointed in the HVAC industry, since R410A is 50% R32 and 50% R125. They must have known about R32 before R410A was even created. I think they put too much weight on the fact that R32 is "mildly flammable".

It's never that simple.

Building codes have to change to allow this. I understand that's pretty much happening right now as municipalities go through their update cycles. My state (NC) has already updated their code.

Training is going to be important. These guys put brazing torches on lines all the time. They are going to have to go through new procedures, or at least have it beaten into them to take precautions they should already be taking.

The industry has history. Way back in the day before WWII, refrigerants were flammable. (What's new is old!) There were accidents. We are a litigious country.

I think the fact that Europe and Asia now have a decade or more of experience will help with the transition here.

 

[latexman]

It's never that simple.

Building codes have to change to allow this. I understand that's pretty much happening right now as municipalities go through their update cycles. My state (NC) has already updated their code.

Training is going to be important. These guys put brazing torches on lines all the time. They are going to have to go through new procedures, or at least have it beaten into them to take precautions they should already be taking.

The industry has history. Way back in the day before WWII, refrigerants were flammable. (What's new is old!) There were accidents. We are a litigious country.

I think the fact that Europe and Asia now have a decade or more of experience will help with the transition here.

Thanks! If only the crystal ball were clearer, right? The A/C consumer would have more coin at the end of the day.

 

[folivier]

And R32 is a hydrocarbon product, yep, from oil.

 

[Qs Laptop]

sitting on a r22 jug in my garage - time for ER

Ha ha ha ha ha! Yes, I read that R22 is $400 a lb. It's still legal to USE R22, you just can't manufacture it or import it. You're sitting on a gold mine.

 

[Montecfo]

I hear different. R32 is supposedly the next generation home A/C refrigerant. It takes 20% less R32 per ton of cooling than R410A. And, R32 has a Global Warming Potential (GWP) of 675, roughly 30% lower than that of R410A. So, R32 is a better alternative from thermodynamic and environmental standpoints than R410A.

I'm disappointed in the HVAC industry, since R410A is 50% R32 and 50% R125. They must have known about R32 before R410A was even created. I think they put too much weight on the fact that R32 is "mildly flammable".

But here we are. It looks like environmental concerns (i.e. our future survival) is now beating out safety concerns.

Interesting. Well it makes you wonder why this change had to be forced of it is better and more effective.

 

[Qs Laptop]

After doing some searching around, I've come to doubt the tech's claim that my system was down 4 lbs. of refrigerant. I don't think there is any way to know that for certain. Only after you ADD refrigerant, weighing the refrigerant cannister before and then after the refill can you calculate how much refrigerant was used/needed.

Also, it reached 98 degrees here on Tuesday and the house was kept cool, the AC cycling on and off as it normally would do at that temperature. So now I'm wondering if perhaps I'm being played by the AC tech?

The sticker on the side of the outside compressor unit says it takes 6.6 lbs. of refrigerant. The tech claims I need 4 lbs. added. I don't believe the AC could cool down my 3,000 sq. ft. home if it was missing two-thirds of its refrigerant. After all, 2 years ago when the AC was not cooling the house at all, I only needed 2 lbs. Now, only 2 years later with the system working I need to add 4 lbs.?

 

[Qs Laptop]

Interesting. Well it makes you wonder why this change had to be forced of it is better and more effective.

From what I've read the change is being forced by legislation slipped into a spending bill that was rushed through Congress in December 2020. It's a part of an effort to lower the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of refrigerants. The higher the number, the more potential damage to the environment. For example, R410A has a GWP of 1,890, whereas R32 has a GWP of 677.

I've also read that Japan and China are aggressively making the switchover to R32.

 

[JoeWras]

Also, it reached 98 degrees here on Tuesday and the house was kept cool, the AC cycling on and off as it normally would do at that temperature. So now I'm wondering if perhaps I'm being played by the AC tech?

That would never happen, would it?

Some of the larger companies pay their techs on a sort of commission basis, so you could be being played.

A friend of mine got frustrated by feeling taken and bought the gauge assembly and learned to use it. That's one area I've never pursued.

 

[dvalley]

After doing some searching around, I've come to doubt the tech's claim that my system was down 4 lbs. of refrigerant. I don't think there is any way to know that for certain. Only after you ADD refrigerant, weighing the refrigerant cannister before and then after the refill can you calculate how much refrigerant was used/needed.

Also, it reached 98 degrees here on Tuesday and the house was kept cool, the AC cycling on and off as it normally would do at that temperature. So now I'm wondering if perhaps I'm being played by the AC tech?

The sticker on the side of the outside compressor unit says it takes 6.6 lbs. of refrigerant. The tech claims I need 4 lbs. added. I don't believe the AC could cool down my 3,000 sq. ft. home if it was missing two-thirds of its refrigerant. After all, 2 years ago when the AC was not cooling the house at all, I only needed 2 lbs. Now, only 2 years later with the system working I need to add 4 lbs.?

Many HVAC people are dishonest because R22 is expensive and there's no way for a customer to know how much is in the system. About 5 years ago I had someone come out to replace the filter and tune it up for $65 as advertised. Without asking he 'topped it off' and wanted to charge me $300, I said that was too much. So he got upset and said fine I'll take it back out and you just pay me for the tune up call. Basically he removed way more than he ever dispensed because after that the ac stopped cooling altogether. In the midst of a heat wave I ended up getting a new unit put in because well it wasn't worth the cost of refilling a 20yr old system. That was a $4k lesson to be careful who you allow to touch your older ac system


In fact, I doubt he can know how much refrigerant your ac needs without first dispensing it so he's prob guessing based on his experience. My experience comes from the DIY automotive side but it's prob the same for the home systems. You hook up the gauges, turn the ac on and check the pressures on the low/high side. If the pressures are low (for the given refrigerant, temp, humidity) you add a little at a time until the pressures are in the normal range. Now to know how much refrigerant is dispensed is usually done by a weighing the refrigerant can/cylinder on a weighing scale (weight before dispensing - weight after dispensing = dispensed qty in oz).
Professional automotive shops use a machine (Robinair usually) which can evacuate, vacuum and then dispense the exact amount as recommended by the manufacturer.

 

[Sunset]

After doing some searching around, I've come to doubt the tech's claim that my system was down 4 lbs. of refrigerant. I don't think there is any way to know that for certain. Only after you ADD refrigerant, weighing the refrigerant cannister before and then after the refill can you calculate how much refrigerant was used/needed.

Also, it reached 98 degrees here on Tuesday and the house was kept cool, the AC cycling on and off as it normally would do at that temperature. So now I'm wondering if perhaps I'm being played by the AC tech?

The sticker on the side of the outside compressor unit says it takes 6.6 lbs. of refrigerant. The tech claims I need 4 lbs. added. I don't believe the AC could cool down my 3,000 sq. ft. home if it was missing two-thirds of its refrigerant. After all, 2 years ago when the AC was not cooling the house at all, I only needed 2 lbs. Now, only 2 years later with the system working I need to add 4 lbs.?

If it's working, what is there to fix ?

I wonder if your coil didn't freeze up, I had that happen once, the A/C wasn't cooling the house, yet it was running. I peeked inside at my coil and it was all white with ice. I left it off for hours to melt and then it has worked for years. (except when the condenser failed years later, which I replaced for ~$15).

 

[GenXguy]

(except when the condenser failed years later, which I replaced for ~$15).

A condenser unit for $15? They're usually more like $1000 to $3000. Did you get a deal on a used unit from someone?

I had the same problem with my coil freezing, and I found the condenser would be running, but the furnace blower motor was stopped and not blowing air through the house. This would happen at some point during a cooling cycle and wouldn't work properly again until I turned it off and on, but then happen again during the cooling cycle. It ended up being a problem with the old thermostat for controlling the fan on the furnace, so I put in a new digital thermostat, which solved the problem.

 

[JoeWras]

A condenser unit for $15? They're usually more like $1000 to $3000. Did you get a deal on a used unit from someone?

Guessing they mean start up capacitor?

BTW, a freezing coil is usually a sign of low refrigerant. It usually doesn't go away.

 

[Sunset]

A condenser unit for $15? They're usually more like $1000 to $3000. Did you get a deal on a used unit from someone?

I had the same problem with my coil freezing, and I found the condenser would be running, but the furnace blower motor was stopped and not blowing air through the house. This would happen at some point during a cooling cycle and wouldn't work properly again until I turned it off and on, but then happen again during the cooling cycle. It ended up being a problem with the old thermostat for controlling the fan on the furnace, so I put in a new digital thermostat, which solved the problem.

OOPs, sorry I meant capacitor.. Still on my 2nd coffee..

 

[GenXguy]

Guessing they mean start up capacitor?

Well that would certainly be less than a condenser.

BTW, a freezing coil is usually a sign of low refrigerant. It usually doesn't go away.

It went away in my case also, after replacing the thermostat (per my previous post). I've never had any refrigerant added in the 20 years I've lived here with this same system.

 

[Sunset]

Guessing they mean start up capacitor?

BTW, a freezing coil is usually a sign of low refrigerant. It usually doesn't go away.

Correct it was capacitor for $15.

There are other reasons for icing up, and since the A/C is still working years later without issues, it must have been something else in this case.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Guessing they mean start up capacitor?

BTW, a freezing coil is usually a sign of low refrigerant. It usually doesn't go away.

Which is exactly the symptom I had two years ago when it wasn't cooling and needed to add refrigerant. Another symptom is that frost build up on the AC coil melts and leaves water puddles on the floor..

 

[JoeWras]

There are other reasons for icing up, and since the A/C is still working years later without issues, it must have been something else in this case.

True. Air flow is one culprit.

 

[JoeWras]

Which is exactly the symptom I had two years ago when it wasn't cooling and needed to add refrigerant. Another symptom is that frost build up on the AC coil melts and leaves water puddles on the floor..

When my unit failed last year, I didn't have puddles. Instead, my unit was shaking, rattling and rolling. The evaporator coil became a huge block of ice and the air wasn't passing by it smoothly, thus causing a bunch of loud turbulence.

 

[homestead]

OOPs, sorry I meant capacitor.. Still on my 2nd coffee..

Old enough to remember this...
The capacitor was initially known as a condenser. The term “condensor” was associated with it because it was supposed to condense electric charge. The charge it could hold at a rated voltage was known as “capacity.” This term was in use till about 1960s.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Old enough to remember this...
The capacitor was initially known as a condenser. The term “condensor” was associated with it because it was supposed to condense electric charge. The charge it could hold at a rated voltage was known as “capacity.” This term was in use till about 1960s.

Me too. My dad used the term "condenser" up until the 70's and stubbornly made the switchover. I always called them capacitors.

Several years ago I had to replace the start up condenser, er, capacitor, on my furnace's fan. Cost was about $3.50.

Another fun electronics fact: Vacuum tubes are called "valves" in England.

 

[Freedom56]

Our Lennox unit is 26 years old and still the original system from our home that we bought in 1996. The controller failed two times. But I repaired the relays on the controller board that failed myself and it ran fine thereafter. Four years ago I decided to replace the controller board completely ($220) as a preventive measure and it has been running fine since. We were considering replacing the AC unit during the lockdowns in 2020 but wanted an R32 system but there were none available. Our Condo has a Trane AC/Heat system that is 8 years old. We hope that one will hold up as well as the Lennox. We raise the temperature set point up to 76 when we are not there. The condo sets the common areas to 71 degrees so the cool air in the building limits our AC use while it sits empty.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Our Lennox unit is 26 years old and still the original system from our home that we bought in 1996. The controller failed two times. But I repaired the relays on the controller board that failed myself and it ran fine thereafter. Four years ago I decided to replace the controller board completely ($220) as a preventive measure and it has been running fine since.

I love these do it yourself repair stories.

Last fall when I turned on the furnace for the first time it would fire up the burners, then shutdown before fan would engage and blow warm air into the house. I checked the error code and it led me to discover a vacuum line that was going to a safety shutoff sensor was partially plugged by what looked like the fluffy residue from seedlings from a cotton wood tree. The blockage was about the size of a wisp of cotton from a Q-tip. Took that out of the vacuum line and furnace started working normally. Still amazed something like that could shutdown a furnace, plus pretty pleased with myself for finding it.

 

[JoeWras]

Yeah, great stuff. There are a lot of things advanced DYIers can do that don't involve messing with the refrigerant set.

My plastic evap coil drip pan developed a crack and leak last year. A new pan was hard to get, and was over $200. A little marine epoxy and I'm good to go. I did have to take the coil out, but fortunately the fridge line had a lot of slack so I could just pull the coil out and set it aside, carefully manipulating the lines.