New car, Tire rotation, Who do you use.

[Midpack]

I suck I don't rotate them any more. Don't drive that much and don't care that much.

You don’t suck. I only rotate tires to extend tire life. If you don’t mind replacing tires a little more often, with significant life left in two tires, you don’t need to rotate tires. Who knows, the savings from not paying to rotate tires may offset the cost increase of more frequent replacement.

 

[Midpack]

It has nothing to do with tire wear. It's all about strain on the Subaru AWD drivetrain. Not to slam Subaru but this would be true on any true AWD system. Google it, uneven tread depth on AWDF vehicles.

Interesting thanks, I didn’t know that. I own a 2018 Outback, my first and last Subaru or AWD, so I’ll continue to rotate every 12K miles (or maybe not, below). I see it’s actually tire diameter delta that adds stress on the differential system. But tread depth is much easier to measure and correlates directly to tire diameter.

And jazz4cash must be right about uniform tire pressure causing the same, if not worse, differential system issues. My Outback TPMS does display actual pressure on all 4 tires, some TPMS systems don’t.

Side note: I’m at 23K miles with oil change 4 coming at 24K, and I skipped tire rotation on oil change 1 and 3, and the dealer service department never said anything. Guess they’re happy to forgo tire rotation $ for a $$$$ differential service later - clever. Maybe I need to rethink tire rotation on my last Subaru...

 

[ERD50]

...
And jazz4cash must be right about uniform tire pressure causing the same, if not worse, differential system issues. My Outback TPMS does display actual pressure on all 4 tires, some TPMS systems don’t.. ...

Now I'm curious about my AWD Buick Encore - I have my tires a few pounds above the 'recc' to allow for some minor leak-down, and supposedly better MPG. So I wonder if as a test, I ran one tire a bit higher, and one lower, but not low enough to trigger an alarm, would the differential pressure between those two tires alert me? I assume it should be more concerned about front-to-back differential?


-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

...

Relative wet stopping distances from 70 mph:

• New tire 10/32" tread = 195.2 ft
• 4/32" tread = 290.0 ft
• 2/32" tread = 378.8 ft - almost twice as far! And this is the tread depth the tire company will insist you drive on before the warranty might apply.

Rotating tires often to preserve your warranty rights is a waste of time, money and effort IMO.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/tires/why-tread-life-warranties-are-next-to-useless

Interesting video, but what totally sucks about it (and it is commented on in the youtube comments), is that they don't include the zero point in those comparisons. So unless you really study it, it looks like the 4/32" takes just over 3x longer to stop than the 10/32" tires. But it's really just under 1.5x longer.

290 ∕ 195.2 ≈ 1.4856557

Still significant, but it's a misleading way for them to make the point.

-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

Interesting video, but what totally sucks about it (and it is commented on in the youtube comments), is that they don't include the zero point in those comparisons. So unless you really study it, it looks like the 4/32" takes just over 3x longer to stop than the 10/32" tires. But it's really just under 1.5x longer.

290 ∕ 195.2 ≈ 1.4856557

Still significant, but it's a misleading way for them to make the point.

-ERD50

Study it? Misleading? I can't imagine drawing conclusions based on a screen capture and ignoring the actual distances which I shared in outline form, but I'm sure some would. Maybe you could provide a better source to illustrate...

 

[ERD50]

Study it? Misleading? I can't imagine drawing conclusions based on the screen capture and ignoring the actual distances, but I'm sure some morons would. Maybe you could provide a better source to illustrate...

Relax. All I'm saying is that it is very bad form of them to not include zero. You were clear, my comment was directed (as I said) at the video creator. Yes, many people will walk away with the wrong conclusion. Not everybody studies and analyzes something, they look at the pretty picture. That doesn't really make them a moron.

-ERD50

 

[Redbugdave]

I do all my own maintenance and rotate tires every other oil change.

 

[pb4uski]

I have oil changes done at the dealer while under warranty and have them rotate tires with each oil change. Once I'm out of warranty I go to the local garage. I do engine and cabin air filters myself.

 

[cbo111]

If you buy tires at Costco, they rotate/balance them for free for the life of the tire. I tend to do rotations every 6K or so, but if the tires appear to have even wear after 25K, I usually don't bother with rotating.

 

[ERD50]

If you buy tires at Costco, they rotate/balance them for free for the life of the tire. I tend to do rotations every 6K or so, but if the tires appear to have even wear after 25K, I usually don't bother with rotating.

Well, sort of.

Some years back, I took my FWD van into Costco for tire rotation for tires I bought there. I get back from browsing the store while I wait, and they say they can't/won't rotate them, because the fronts have a bit less tread than the rear, and that can cause the car's rear to break out on a hard turn on snowy roads.

OK, but if you rotate them, they will soon wear more on the front, and the problem resolves itself - oh, but unless I monitor and catch them before they become less than the rear, you won't rotate them then either?

edit/add: And if the ones with less tread go on the front, they wear faster anyhow, they'll always have less tread - so how can I ever get them rotated?

I paid to have them rotated at my independent shop, they say they never heard of that before.

It's not totally unfounded, but is it really worse than having the worn tires on front, which hurts me getting going and braking in snow? I can almost always plan ahead to go slow into a turn, but I have to accelerate and I'm more likely to have to brake suddenly than make a hard, unexpected turn.

Since them I discovered TireRack.com, and my independent shop works with them. I like Costco, but no tires for me.

-ERD50

 

[CRLLS]

What zero point are you talking about? No tread at all? 2/32" is the lowest tread depth tested. It also is the minimum legal tread depth. That is what the tread depth indicator molded in the tire is. Anything less than that is against the law. I'm not sure why they would test tread depth that is already supposed to be replaced.

 

[ERD50]

What zero point are you talking about? No tread at all? 2/32" is the lowest tread depth tested. It also is the minimum legal tread depth. That is what the tread depth indicator molded in the tire is. Anything less than that is against the law. I'm not sure why they would test tread depth that is already supposed to be replaced.

Not the zero point of the tread depth, the zero point of the stopping distance. Without including a zero point in that video (edit/add: at any point in the video, not just the thumbnail or screen capture), the differences are exaggerated. Example:


60,61,62 a 3.33% difference, shown with a zero ref

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60,61,62 a 3.33% difference, shown w/o a zero ref, zoomed in to a fixed width of the screen

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-ERD50

 

[Music Lover]

It's not totally unfounded, but is it really worse than having the worn tires on front, which hurts me getting going and braking in snow?

Yes. It's always better to have more traction in back than the front to prevent fishtailing and losing control. Tire shops up here now have a policy to only install 4 winter tires at once, but before they adapted that policy most of them would install winter tires on the back if you only wanted 2 regardless if you had FWD, RWD, or AWD.

 

[Winemaker]

A few years ago, I took a fun drivers course at a local racetrack for us spirited drivers. Their advice was 2 fold; very important for front tires to have maximum traction, when going around curves. You tap the brakes lightly to "throw" the mass of the car forward onto your front tires for maximum grip, then accelerate out of turn. 2)We all assume that the rear tires follow the front tires' path, but not necessarily true. In inclement weather, if rear tires have poor tread, and less weight over the rear axle/mounts, fishtailing would occur due to the rear end hydroplaning. They also suggested putting narrower snow tires during the winter snow months as to "cut thru" the snow, and leave the sportier wider tires for the summer months. I do have 2 sets of wheels/ tires for 2 of my vehicles, for that reason.

 

[ERD50]

Yes. It's always better to have more traction in back than the front to prevent fishtailing and losing control. ....

I understand the fishtailing case, and I accept that is how it works. But I still take exception to the idea that it is "always" better to have more traction in back than the front.

In a snow storm, it's really bad if I can't get moving (Front WD), and have limited braking (Front wheels do most of the braking). I have little control over that - I have to stop and go.

But in a snow storm, I approach turns very carefully, and I slow way down before changing lanes. I have control over that (in most cases). I can avoid most fishtailing scenarios in that way.

I guess an analogy would be with cars with AWD - we know that people get a false sense of security with that AWD traction, and forget to brake early, because it feels like they have good traction. But of course, all cars have 4 wheel brakes, so some AWD drivers get themselves in trouble this way. But we don't say that AWD is worse that 2 wheel drive because of that, we recognize we need to adapt.

-ERD50

 

[Music Lover]

I understand the fishtailing case, and I accept that is how it works. But I still take exception to the idea that it is "always" better to have more traction in back than the front.

"always" was the wrong choice of words..."usually" would have been a better choice. Most cars are designed with a little bit of understeer because it's "usually" safer.

 

[CRLLS]

Not the zero point of the tread depth, the zero point of the stopping distance. Without including a zero point in that video (edit/add: at any point in the video, not just the thumbnail or screen capture), the differences are exaggerated. Example:


60,61,62 a 3.33% difference, shown with a zero ref

------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------


60,61,62 a 3.33% difference, shown w/o a zero ref, zoomed in to a fixed width of the screen

--------------------
----------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------



-ERD50

Okay, I see what you are saying now. It infers that zero reference in the video by overlaying the distance in feet without a "zero" extension line. That zero is clearly off camera. Also I can get the relative distances by the scale of the cars shown. The elimination of zero is a common method in many graphs and I can easily adjust to it mentally. Maybe some cannot. For a similar type graph where the zero is not shown, just look at any YTD or daily Dow performance graph.

 

[wolf]

Thanks for all of the valuable information.

I think there is confusion, AWD, (all wheel drive). Subaru, and other's have this.
Do not confuse with, on demand four wheel drive.

Example: 25,000 miles on tires. Get a nail in sidewall. Need a new tire,

Options: (A.) Buy 4 new tires. (B.) Have new tire "shaved" down to match the other 3.

Reason: Wear and tear on drive train. New tire is larger in diameter.

I think I will take the advice, of a couple of previous posters, and just rotate myself. Until, I buy new tires at Costco...Ha...When they have their Michelin sale....

 

[ERD50]

... The elimination of zero is a common method in many graphs and I can easily adjust to it mentally. Maybe some cannot. For a similar type graph where the zero is not shown, just look at any YTD or daily Dow performance graph.

I agree that it is common. And it is often misleading. It's fine if the point is to zoom in on small deltas, but that should be made clear, not just done w/o context.

The daily graphs you mention are a good example. I've seen a graph of a stock put up on screen, and the announcer gasps at the trend. But there is no scale, or it is auto-scaled, so that big drop could by 0.0005%, or 50%, there was no clue, yet they resond to the shape, which means near nothing.

On my computer, one of the graphs for internet mbps auto-scales. Makes it near useless. I glance at it and all I know is is sometimes I was downloading more data than other times, which is pretty common when you are browsing the web. I have to look at the teensy scale on the side to see if the peak was 1 mbps, 10 mbps or 100 mbps. It should allow me to lock the scale to my expected max speed, so I can see at a glance if I am hitting peaks near my max or if I'm being choked down by something.

Did somebody say something about tires? OK, I'm going to go measure my tread depth, and get back on track...

-ERD50

 

[kingkarmann]

I’d go to the place you’ve bought tires before and talk to them. Discount Tire has fixed my flats and rotated tires on occasion for free. They know how to build goodwill and I do go there for all my tire needs.

I just got done with my “free” services on my newer cars and the last oil change I got was with a coupon to do the rotation also for a pretty good price so that’s the other option.

I usually do my own maintenance. It’s something I find therapeutic.
As for Discount Tire, they are tops when it comes to customer service.
Buy all my tires there and have returned for small issues and rotations. No is not in their vocabulary.

 

[aja8888]

I usually do my own maintenance. It’s something I find therapeutic.
As for Discount Tire, they are tops when it comes to customer service.
Buy all my tires there and have returned for small issues and rotations. No is not in their vocabulary.

Me too, all of the above.

 

[Bamaman]

The other car folks here will yell at me, but I don't regularly rotate tires. One of my vehicles has staggered tires (wider in back) so one shouldn't rotate in any case. On the others I just monitor tread wear. If I see 1/8" variation I'll swap front and rear, but I haven't had to do this in several years (30K+ miles).

I avoid car dealership service departments like the Coronaviris. Since I have a compressor, impact wrenches and a floor jack, my tire rotations look like NASCAR on Sundays--just slower. And I change my own oil.

As far as staggered car tires, I've sworn off ultra high performance 40-45-55 series tires. I've never got any mileage out of low profile tires and they're too expensive. They'll look good one day, and be down to the cording the next day.

I now order tires online most of the time, and have a large used tire store that mounts and balances tires for $15 a tire.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

Living in Europe things are different which may interest some. Here you cannot buy all season tires and you must have two sets. One for winter and one for summer. These are required by law and inspected randomly. I am sort of cheap about it so didn't buy two complete rim sets so we actually remount all 4 tires. In our town there is a guy with a complete tire repair shop set up in a large van and he comes to the house and does this right here. The cost is roughly $40 for that. Because he is remounting them he also does a balance and we get a tire inspection at the same time. We have the expensive run flat tires and while remounting them they get an internal inspection as well. Twice now I have had to replace a tire which was damaged and would not have been found without doing this remount process. With European standard speed limit of 130 km/h (81 mph) and everyone exceeds that by at least 10% so figure 90 mph is "normal" you must have high speed tires as well.

Back in the late 80's (I was 15 years into my military career) I shipped over a brand new Mitsubishi Starion (a cheaper Japanese Porsche copy) I had bought specifically for driving at high speeds in Germany. I shipped it to Bremerhaven from Bayonne, NJ and drove it from Bremerhaven to my base in Kaiserslautern Germany. I had it inspected there for the required safety inspection the same day and it failed as the tires were completely bald. The car had a bit over 500 miles on it being brand new.I was, of course, flabbergasted as the car was brand new and failed! I had driven the car at 160 mph most of the way as it was a very fast car and being brand new and at that time Germany had no speed limits on the Autobahns. I would have gone faster but the front end gets light above 160 mph so it needed an additional horizontal stabilizer to balance the weight which I never got around to installing. Below that it drove like a dream and unless you looked at the speedometer you wouldn't believe you were going that fast. What had happened is American standard rated tires had melted and gone bald at that speed. I had to replace them with high speed Pirelli's which lasted a long time. I suppose I was lucky to have survived that trip.

 

[Car-Guy]

I do it myself, when needed... Unless I see uneven wear, I don't rotate. However, I do check and maintain proper air pressure regularly and if I do see uneven wear, I try to address the root of the problem. (alignment, shocks, etc.) rather than just rotate the tires. Since I replace my tries before really needed, rotation is rarely a problem for me.

As I've said before, "IMO" the two things on a car that are foolish to scrimp on are tires and brakes. If in doubt, change them out.

 

[pb4uski]

.... I think I will take the advice, of a couple of previous posters, and just rotate myself. Until, I buy new tires at Costco...Ha...When they have their Michelin sale....

I'm no longer a believer in Michelin despite having had many sets of Michelin tires in years past.

When our 2016 Subaru Outback's OEM tires wore out I bought a set of Michelin Premier LTX tires from Costco that had a 60k warranty. I rotate them with every oil change.. so roughtly every 6k miles. By the time I got to 22k miles on that new set they were almost worn out. I then made a warranty claim and Costco sold me another set for 22/60 (37%) of the cost of a new set.

Based on the current wear after 17k miles I doubt that I'll get 25k miles out of this replacement set.

Costco would have allowed me to go with a different brand when I replaced the Michelins and I questioned getting the same tire given my previous experience, but the service manager talked me into replacing them with Michelins.