New electrical panel?

[Texas Proud]

I agree with what you posted but if the OP doesn't ask the question then they'll never know the answer or what the real constraint is and what other alternative might be available. IIRC where I live the wire from the meter to the panel can't exceed a certain lenght and that woud be the constraint that would need to be addressed.

Do you know that length My panel is located on the back wall of my semi-detached garage.... so the wires in my bedroom have to go the length of the garage, the walkway between the garage and the house and then all the way across the house.... I think this is a pretty short run when it comes to an electrical run.... but, I bet the gauge of the wire makes a difference...

 

[samclem]

I'm in favor of:
-- Getting more quotes from reputable sources.
-- Doing the minimum amount of work needed to get your heater working safely. That means finding out what happened to the supply circuit that has worked well for 40+ years. An electrician who won't go into a crawlspace needs to hire an apprentice who will, or get out of the business.
-- Keeping your panel and electrical meter where they are. As pb4uski notes, fewer and fewer utilities are manually reading meters at all anymore, they just take out your meter one day, replace it with one that has a transmitter inside, then drive by the houses with an interrogator to read the meters electronically. It makes little sense to move your meter at this point.

 

[zinger1457]

Going from a 70 to 200 amp panel will also likely require a new larger feeder wire from the utility. In my neighborhood all the utilities are buried under ground so it's no small task. Not such a major effort but not necessarily cheap if coming overhead from a pole.

 

[HFWR]

If it were me, I'd crawl under there myself, and at the very least see the actual disconnect/problem. I have done electrical work, so I'm reasonably comfortable with do-it-yourself. If the wires are corroded at the connection to the heater, just snipping off the ends, restripping, and reconnecting might be all that's needed.

You mentioned a plumber? Is this hot water radiant heat, i.e. radiator? If so, is it a standalone unit, or part of a larger system? It may just be a low voltage thermostat circuit to control water flow, a relatively inexpensive and easy fix.

I'd want answers to these types of questions before proceeding, and as I said, I'd inspect it myself first.

 

[pb4uski]

Do you know that length My panel is located on the back wall of my semi-detached garage.... so the wires in my bedroom have to go the length of the garage, the walkway between the garage and the house and then all the way across the house.... I think this is a pretty short run when it comes to an electrical run.... but, I bet the gauge of the wire makes a difference...

I'm just talking about the wire from the meter to the panel, not from the panel to elsewhere in the house. I dunno what the maximum length is or even if there is one, I just seem to recall when we were building and talking about where to put the panel that the electrician like having the panel closer to the meter rather than farther.

 

[NW-Bound]

To go from the meter to the panel, for 200A you will need 00 AWG wire (two-ought). The diameter of the copper conductor is 0.36" (not counting the insulation), and you will need the 3 wires to be in a conduit. It is a heavy inflexible bundle that needs a large conduit, and would be difficult to go around a corner.

PS. The above is for copper wire. With aluminum, one has to use 0000 AWG (four-ought). The diameter of the alum conductor is 0.46", again without counting the plastic insulator around it.

 

[ohfrugalone]

Well thank you for all of the information.

I called the electric company and was not able to speak with Harry about his specific concerns and reasoning (I mean he is one man who covers the entire residential work for a city of half million, but he was so nice to ....take such an interest in my house...).

Anyway the woman I spoke with said that code now is for the meters to be in the front of the house, on new construction, or to the side in front of the gate, but lots and lots of people upgrade their panel and don't move the meter. She couldn't imagine why I would need to move the meter, unless it might be next to a gas meter (no it's not). Well I should be able to do an upgrade without moving the meter. She said there is nothing in my personal record stating that meter readers have had problems accessing my meter to read, which could be another reason to move it, but not in my case.

Currently the electric panel is in the garage with loads of space in front of it and to the sides. In fact I would think it was protected there, from the elements - the wind, the rain, etc, etc. But I can see where it would more time consuming to move it instead of using the same space,? That's a plus right? For the electrician.

So I have someone else coming tomorrow. His ad said free estimates, but it turns out that coming to my house is a troubleshooting event, not an estimate so he charges $98/hour,

The fact of the matter is, I can't be leaving work every other day for this, and I need it to be over. If the other guy would have just been satisfied with $2,500 for a new panel he would be starting the job tomorrow and be done on Friday - but you needing to move everything to the side of the house - well he needs to get the electric company's approval on what they like and how they want it done and when they want it done? What? I had said I wanted things done appropriate and according to code. Maybe that is not a good thing to say if you don't want the job to expand so large.

I rather think the electrician felt that if he put things off long enough I would get more and more desperate as the weather got worse and being frozen myself and worrying about my pipes being frozen I might agree to anything,

Anyway - he is gone - let's see what his bill is. I am just not a crawl under the house kind of gal, and I not very handy doing plumbing or electrical and in no way would trust myself to be able to make judgments even if I watched a lot to you tube videos. I just don't want to be cheated.

 

[Telly]

I'm just talking about the wire from the meter to the panel, not from the panel to elsewhere in the house. I dunno what the maximum length is or even if there is one, I just seem to recall when we were building and talking about where to put the panel that the electrician like having the panel closer to the meter rather than farther.

I recall that NEC was working to a standard on that years ago. The issue was that service wiring from the meter box to the panel is unprotected, since it is upstream from the main breaker in the panel. The goal was to minimize unprotected wiring inside the structure. The only "protection" the service entrance wiring has is the fuse on the primary side of the transformer, and it is sized to handle full loads of all the customers on the secondary of that transformer, plus a big reserve so there is no nuisance blowing... really there to protect the transformer itself.

 

[Telly]

To go from the meter to the panel, for 200A you will need 00 AWG wire (two-ought). The diameter of the copper conductor is 0.36" (not counting the insulation), and you will need the 3 wires to be in a conduit. It is a heavy inflexible bundle that needs a large conduit, and would be difficult to go around a corner.

PS. The above is for copper wire. With aluminum, one has to use 0000 AWG (four-ought). The diameter of the alum conductor is 0.46", again without counting the plastic insulator around it.

I used 000 copper for 200 amp service in the 80's, and AL would be 0000 as you mentioned. I used copper from the mast head, down to the meter box, and into the panel. I wouldn't touch AL for in-building wiring! Even the local electric utility inspectors said they'd use only copper for their houses. They were using AL for feeders and drops, but as they said... the worst it could do there is to burn through and drop to the ground. I don't think anyone would freely share that comment today, though it's still true.

To do a turn with wire of that size, it needs a 45 degree pull-elbow, and even then it's not all that easy. Three 000's fill a conduit fast!

 

[Telly]

For a replacement of an existing breaker box today, would arc-fault breakers be required for at least certain circuits?

Arc-fault breakers, besides being $$, also require different handling of the neutral. The neutral (white) wire returning from the branch circuit, instead of going to the neutral bar along with all of the other branch neutrals, has to go to the arc-fault breaker instead. So the A-F breaker has the hot in from the panel bus, and the neutral in from the branch circuit. In addition, another wire is needed to go from the A-F breaker to the neutral bar (the A-F breaker senses the neutral besides the hot to look for the arc signature).

This has spawned a new design of panels, called Plug On Neutrals. They have an integral neutral bus under the breaker positions, so the third wire, neutral from A-F breaker back to neutral bar, is integral. So on the branch circuit side of the A-F breaker, there are just two connections: hot to branch, and neutral returning from the branch circuit.

 

[whitestick]

Not a current electrician, just one back in the day (and that was a long time ago). Another suggestion to ponder is that if the cost issues are around the future needs for upgraded heating, and the need for a 200 AMP service at that time, along with or without a possible meter move, why not bring in the new service to the meter (on the side), set a 200 AMP service capable box (separate from the meter) near by, and then run secondary wiring from that box to your existing box. Thus you will have made your current box an auxiliary box with the feeders to it being protected by the main fuse from your new 200 AMP box. This moves the additional cost to the future when you need it. All of your current wiring stays the same. You still have to fix your current problem of the so-called missing wire, which others have already commented on, but it delays and should drastically reduce your additional cost needed just to accommodate the additional service needed. Of course it should be obvious that your new future heater will need the wires for it to be run to your new box and not your existing one, since your existing one is only good for 70 AMPs.
Not sure where you live, but this should pass code with no problem.

 

[ohfrugalone]

Hello, I am off work for the new electrician. My new wonderful, honest electrician. My heater is fixed.

He didn't see any missing wire, but he pointed out the conduit or whatever that holds wires, and said - you just follow that under the house - and there are your wires. So he went under the house and came back up in about 20 mins, and said he plugged it in. The problem was that the heater wasn't plugged in.

How it became unplugged, I can't imagine. I had a plumber under there 2 years ago because he was giving me an estimate on new heater - but the heater worked fine last year. I don't think the plumber I got this year did it cause it was already not working, and he wouldn't go under the house. The heater usually comes on by itself when it gets cold and then I get the plumber out to do a cleaning after the rush dies down. This year it did not come on by itself.

So now I am thinking of making a list and getting things done with this guy every few months because it is kind of difficult for me to find someone like this.

I will ponder your idea whitestick, after I get some lights fixed and outlets checked. I am also further considering whether I will just not have a combo refrig air/heater unit. It will depend on a lot of things. First thing I want is a LED light over the garage - it will give me some front yard light and according to the bulbs at costco will last for like 36 years

Its the refrigerated air that would require the upgrade. I don't need refrigerated air.

Having this fixed is such a relief as is finding someone who does what they say they wll, when they say they will and doesn't have the idea that the stupid lady will give me every cent she has.

 

[rbmrtn]

Hello, I am off work for the new electrician. My new wonderful, honest electrician. My heater is fixed.

He didn't see any missing wire, but he pointed out the conduit or whatever that holds wires, and said - you just follow that under the house - and there are your wires. So he went under the house and came back up in about 20 mins, and said he plugged it in. The problem was that the heater wasn't plugged in.

Sounds like a "keeper". The plug in part sounds strange, most heating units have their own electrical run to the breaker panel. Portable space heaters plug in but not whole house heating unit.

Might be a critter in the crawl space. I've seen squirrels chew through electric wiring in attics.

 

[NW-Bound]

When repairing something, one must remember the simplest goal: restoring the operation to where it was before.

 

[haha]

When repairing something, one must remember the simplest goal: restoring the operation to where it was before.

Not necessarily. I once rewired an old farmhouse. Restoring what was there would have most likely resulted in a very big fire somewhere along the way.

Plenty autos have been "fixed" with a can of Bardahl in the crankcase, yet I would certainly strongly consider rings or even a re-bore before starting out for Maine.

And I sure have never heard of a furnace that somebody plugged in. I'm glad the homeowner is pleased, but I am not sure that I would have been. Judging by the size of her service, I guess this I just for the igniter that starts the gas flame, and maybe these are sometimes just plugged in.

Ha

 

[NW-Bound]

Putting additives in the oil is not really "restoring" to the original condition. Re-ringing the engine would be.

The OP's wiring worked for 40 years. Restoring it may mean fixing the disconnection, or replugging something back in. Or if the wiring deteriorated, that may mean restringing new wires in its place.

Actually, if the original repair job was properly priced, the OP would not make the jump to trying to replace the panel, then to relocate it, and having to face all the ensuing costs.

 

[haha]

Putting additives in the oil is not really "restoring" to the original condition. Re-ringing the engine would be.

Again, not quite. Rings come closer than Bardahl, but at a much greater cost. In many cases it is better to bite the bullet, pull the engine, get it re-bored, install new pistons, etc. Of just sell it and buy a new car, or trade for a factory rebuilt engine.

Once gain, I am happy that the homeowner is happy, but without knowing a lot more that is all I could say.

Over and out

 

[ohfrugalone]

It is a gas furnace, and I think it might be the blower or something that is electric? Maybe the ignitor as ha ha said.

The wiring was never hanging or missing as the original electrician said. It is covered in a think rubber ? tubing. The gas part of the furnace was working though. I do not have electric heat.

I know I have some sort of animal visitor, not mice, as this electrician also noticed evidence of a larger animal, as had the plumber who went under the house years ago to fix the ice maker line - he thought it was a cat. The electrician said he thought a racoon might jump out at any moment. I have never seen a raccoon in real life but do have lots of cats in the area. That is all I can think that happened, unless one of my neighbors really hates me or a kid from the Jr High down the block decided to explore one day?

I am going to have the electrician redo the wiring to someplace more accessible in the spring - before it gets too warm as he doesn't like spiders.

The plumber I used was not just some fly by night guy. He is licensed and fast and prompt, and wonderful. I don't think just because I didn't have to pay him $5,000 that he is a worse electrician than the other one. It's true I do think he is better. And I am very happy.

 

[MDJO]

Replaced my panel last year. It was a Federal Pacific panel. If yours is a Federal Pacific, you may want to have it replaced regardless of whether it is working now or not. My cost was around $2000 total but included new wire to the weatherhead ( the spot that defines where the electric company is responsible vs. the property owner) and new ground wiring. Other estimate was $2500 and it seemed high.

Federal Pacific Circuit Breakers: Investigation Finds Decades of Danger | NBC Bay Area

 

[NW-Bound]

Wow! I looked at the video, and the problem was with the breakers, not the panel per se. The panel is a passive component with bus bars to support the breakers, the latter being the active devices to trip when the load current gets too high.

If my premise is correct, then apparently, no better breakers have been made to go into the same panel. That would be a better deal for the home owners.

Perhaps no other companies want to get involved and to step up to make a breaker that is mechanically compatible to go into the Federal Pacific panel.

 

[ERD50]

Once gain, I am happy that the homeowner is happy, but without knowing a lot more that is all I could say.

Over and out

Agreed. There is a lot of missing info here. Hard to say much of anything.

-ERD50

 

[bld999]

@ohfrugalone:

Good outcome, you have bought yourself something very useful here: time. Plus, having a capable and thoughtful electrician in the rolodex is very nice.

 

[DAYDREAMER]

Zinsco is another dangerous panel that was installed int the 1960's. I recently replaced it with a Square d panel. I feel much safer now.

 

[MDJO]

Wow! I looked at the video, and the problem was with the breakers, not the panel per se. The panel is a passive component with bus bars to support the breakers, the latter being the active devices to trip when the load current gets too high.

If my premise is correct, then apparently, no better breakers have been made to go into the same panel. That would be a better deal for the home owners.

Perhaps no other companies want to get involved and to step up to make a breaker that is mechanically compatible to go into the Federal Pacific panel.

Excellent point, NW - the breakers are the problem. And I believe you are correct that no one makes a breaker to replace all of the FPE breakers, enabling the re-use of the panel. That said, I believe most of the cost of the equipment is in the breakers, so there might not be much in the way of cost savings. I just wanted the whole thing out of there. New panel and breakers are from Eaton.

 

[travelover]

In spite of all the twists and turns of this thread, it sounds like you simply need a new wire run from the service box to the furnace. Any competent electrician who is willing to wipe away a few spider webs can do this. Don't get railroaded into buying a lot more repairs than you need.