New Rav4 purchase falls apart .... not sure what to do

[ExFlyBoy5]

I loved my old 4Runner, which was electronically much simpler. Alas I sold it in 2017 when I became a nomad. Everyone I know who has had a Toyota has loved it ... but I know no-one with a recent Toyota.

There is some forum chatter about lemon laws and law suits, but I don't want any part of that if possible.

Sigh.

Toyota isn't always the saint folks have been saying here.

It's rare to find a car that it totally free of some sort of major issue though all years of a model. I was hunting for a 2nd "beater" car and *almost* bought a 2002 4Runner that had low miles and appeared very clean (in pictures). I did some research and saw that for several years the 4Runner, Tundra and Tacoma could have rust issues w/ the frame. Not just "some rust", but could be bad enough that the vehicle could fall apart. There was a class action lawsuit over it and it made Toyota look very, very bad. There is lots of information about the claims, the lawsuit and how Toyota did their hardest to avoid any blame.

Anyway, I went to look at subject vehicle and it had a LOT of rust that was eating though the frame. I couldn't believe it. So, I am buying a 10 year old Accord instead...

That said, we had 2012 Highlander that was bullet proof for the 80K miles we had it and it was replaced w/ a 2020 4Runner. So, I am not trying to hate on 'Yota... just wanted to make it clear that they have had lemon issues in the past.

 

[homestead]

I was researching Rav4 for purchase this fall but after I read the customer reviews on kelly blue book I dropped that model. Next I looked at 2020 Escape which also has some problems but is a new generation car. I wonder if the pandemic has hurt the quality of new cars? It couldn't have helped.

 

[GTFan]

OP here (waves!)

Many of the modern systems are very good, to be sure. I love power windows and locks, and back-up cameras. XM radio can be nice to have. The problem is that the vehicles are becoming so electronically complex -- both in the foreground and in the background -- that it is hard to figure out what is going on, and of course, there is the constant battery drain.

I am renting a 2020 Rav4 from Avis now, which has the owner's manual in the glovebox. A long evening of perusing the 736 page manual was eye-opening. If the smartkey system is not used for five days several functions shut down. If it is not used for more than 14 days, most functions are shutdown. It is also noted that because the electronics continue to draw current when the car is off, it should be driven at least once a week to prevent battery depletion.

A friend with a top-trim level 2014 Sienna checked his owner's guide: no such admonitions. And they've left their minivan at the airport for three weeks at a time with no issues. He said they now have incentive to make their minivan last 25 years....

So, I've been warned that leaving the car at the airport for a week or longer would require a re-start strategy. Hmmm

This is, of course, separate from the rogue rapid battery discharge issue. I talked to the very helpful (and sympathetic) service foreman at the local Toyota dealership yesterday. He said that the TSB for a DCM firmware upgrade has solved about half the cases they have dealt with. The others have a recurring problem, as yet undiagnosed, but his guess is a bad sensor. He reckoned they've had about a dozen cases of mystery dead battery in the past few months.

Meanwhile, at the CO dealership where I may be buying the vehicle, the new sales guy (i was passed from the e-sales guy to a floor sales guy to finish everything) dismissed my concerns, saying he had never heard of the problem. He also wouldn't refer me to anyone in service, telling me just to call the general service number. I googled this new sales guy: he's 27, and he sounds like he thinks he knows everything.

So good help at the dealership where I am not buying the vehicle, and brush-off at the dealership where I have the deposit....

But it's been said repeatedly that a sub-$100 battery jump starter will ensure you don't have to worry about starting your car. Extremely easy to use, very powerful (can jump V8s with these, way more than your RAV4 needs) and the charge in these lithium batteries lasts a very long time. Yes it sucks that this MAY be an issue (may not) but it's a simple workaround and is a very good item to have anyway because you never know when you'll have a battery crap out on you with a dead cell or whatever. All cars have issues, this is not one I would worry about personally and if it keeps happening and they won't/can't fix it you can make them buy it back as a lemon.

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-GB40-Ul...ds=noco+battery+booster&qid=1602018402&sr=8-6

There are cheaper options but the Nocos have been around a long time and are highly recommended. I have a different model (not Noco and less power than this one) and jumped a friend's Chevy 2500HD truck with it (big V8). They have plenty of juice.

 

[BarbWire]

All cars have issues, this is not one I would worry about personally and if it keeps happening and they won't/can't fix it you can make them buy it back as a lemon.

Here's a question: are any of the posters who say "hey, don't worry, just jump it" solo females who are often in rural or mountainous areas?

Yes? What would solo females (or perhaps males) do? Do you think this is a personal safety issue (not a dead car in the garage, of course, but a dead car in a remote campground?) And it appears that some vehicles with a Smart Key system still cannot start, even if the 12V main battery is jumped -- per anecdotal reports.

Seriously, if I had a partner-in-crime or was always in urban areas within spittin' distance of a Toyo dealership, I would be less concerned, but I am solo and adventurous. Heck, last year I took my Ford Transit (my #VanLife van: 90K miles in 3.5 years without a hiccup, which I built out, including house 12V systems) to the Yukon & Alaska and back without hesitation, but I have complete confidence in the Spruce Moose.

On the other hand, waking up each morning wondering if my vehicle will start -- even if I could jump it from my power pack -- is stress I don't want in FIRE. Nor do I want to stress as I approach an airport parking lot after 2-3 weeks about whether my car will be alive -- or whether I will be standing alone in the parking lot at midnight jumping my car.

YMMV.

But I will definitely buy a charger pack (the one noted above is the one the service foreman showed me yesterday). I probably should have had one when I drove to Alaska, but I was naive and my van has 2 AGMs....

I did the lemon law/buyback thing about 10 years ago. That is not an experience I want to repeat: time and energy sink ....

I don't mean to sound negative -- I am SO VERY GRATEFUL for all the comments and support here! The discussion has helped me sort out my priorities.

 

[BarbWire]

I was researching Rav4 for purchase this fall but after I read the customer reviews on kelly blue book I dropped that model. Next I looked at 2020 Escape which also has some problems but is a new generation car. I wonder if the pandemic has hurt the quality of new cars? It couldn't have helped.

Yeah, I thought about the Escape because I really love my Ford Transit van (my #VanLife van: 90K miles in 3.5 years without a hiccup). I do not want a 2020 because it is the first year of the latest generation, and Ford totally biffed the roll-out of the "all new 2020 Explorer." If I could I'd wait until the 2021 Escape is available. Or look for a lease-return, CPO 2018 or 2019.

BUT ... if you look for a 2018 or 2019, be aware that the ones that are available as "used" were probably rental cars. This weekend I looked at a 2019 at a dealership that, it turns out, Enterprise put 28K miles on in 11 months. The dealer bought it at auction.

 

[38Chevy454]

In addition to the jump pack, you could use a small 5-10 watt solar charger that you simply plug into cig lighter and place on the dash; for those extended periods. That would keep the parasitic drain from causing a dead battery. Then you still have the jump pack as backup, belts and suspenders approach.

 

[BarbWire]

I was researching Rav4 for purchase this fall but after I read the customer reviews on kelly blue book I dropped that model. Next I looked at 2020 Escape which also has some problems but is a new generation car. I wonder if the pandemic has hurt the quality of new cars? It couldn't have helped.

Or is it a squeeky wheel thing? As more and more people understand the power of the 'net and how/where to post reviews, are we seeing a very skewed distribution? That is so very difficult to determine.

Case in point: until yesterday I was unaware that individuals could file complaints at NTHSA. How many people are unaware of this and instead post on the 231-item thread at CarGurus.com on this subject?

There is power in the information sharing of the internet, but there are pitfalls, too. ARRRRGH!!

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

If anyone is looking for a jumper that is less expensive than a NOCO but still has a good reputation, this Audew is on sale today only (Amazon deal of the day) for $67.65: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GR17R3X/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[GTFan]

I don't mean to sound negative -- I am SO VERY GRATEFUL for all the comments and support here! The discussion has helped me sort out my priorities.

No car is 100% reliable and most of what you read on car forums is the neg, which is vastly outnumbered by the folks with no issues that don't get on forums and post.

For example, the 2017 and up CR-Vs had lots of reports of gas getting into the oil of the new turbo engines. Had a buddy with the same car and zero issues with his, but if all you do is read forums you'd think the engine was trash. Of course this is anecdotal, everything is until the recalls and class actions start. Problem is that you don't know which is which right away.

All we can advise is to be prepared, and a dead battery can happen to ANY car because they just die from bad cells or whatever. Had it happen to two of mine, fortunately both were in my carport. If I was a single woman out alone in the boonies I'd for damn sure have a jump pack in the car (and solar chargers), doesn't matter what car it is. The jump packs also act as chargers for phones and whatever...

 

[Time2]

Did some more online reading. This could, as noted by many, simply be a bad batch of batteries.

It could also be a single device continuing to pull power - buddy of mine had a 2000ish 7 Series BMW than would drain the battery every few days unless something mounted in dash (can't recall) was replaced (about $1200 to remove major portions of the dash).

And, the usual "old folks" lamentations are noted:

- I'll never have those e-lectric windows

Hey, I said that about e-lectric windows!


OK, I was wrong.

But I did have to replace one window drive motor.

 

[51togo]

I helped my son in the negotiation of a new Rev 4 several months ago from one of the biggest dealership here in LA, Longo. It was a limited model and Even with my hard bargaining, we got $500 below MSRP plus rubber floor mats and trunk rubber mat.
So far no problems and he drives the Toyota 3 days In a roll while parked for several days rotate with his other vehicle. One worthy note from him was that the Rev 4 saved him from a rear ended collision. With about 3 cars lengths in the 57 fwy going 70, the car in front of him suddenly applied full braking with the tires locked. The Rev 4 got the automatic braking system and brake for him a second or so before he realized the urgency. He felt if he was driving the older Civic, he would be rear ending the car in front of him. It happened so fast he changed lane and kept going. This prompted me to go ahead with my purchase of several dash cams on my vehicles, and his as cheap insurance. I ended up getting an inexpensive model $100 with front and rear cameras, hard wired with fuse etc. tested the recording and quite pleased with it. On the Rev 4, my recommendations are stay with the plan and the knowledge from the sites are good but you got full warranty. Btw we didn’t purchase the extended warranty, never did on all my new vehicles so far so good. But there’s a lot of electronics on these new vehicles so couple thousands to give you piece of mind is good investment too especially if you look at the monthly payment it’s worth it. Best to your decision!

 

[51togo]

Barbwire, another thought if you don’t drive your car frequently. Not suggesting you do this to a new car but when my daughters were in college, they shared my old hand me down Honda Accord. A reliable car with 200k mi, but the battery is very small. The car stayed in the parking lot until weekend for them to come home. I changed it to a larger capacity battery with higher cranking amp and more reserves in the event they need to start the car in a couple week without any problem. On my other classic cars, I’ve good luck with Optima, and Oddessy. Again, the Rev 4 is Toyota’s bread and butter. It’s not like you’re getting a brand new model like a Ford Bronco. Enjoy your new car!

 

[Ablatus]

Thanks. I am still in a tizzy, even thinking about toting a battery charger. I go camping and often leave windows and the rear hatch open (one person was told he had killed the battery because he left the moonroof open overnight....seriously?)

Carry a battery jumper? Change out the factory battery right away for a Lifeline or other? Can you charge up a battery jumper (I've never owned one) and leave it sitting in your car at the airport for 3 weeks, and still have enough juice in it to jump your car?

I guess the real issue is what percentage of Rav4s are afflicted? I don't know how to find out how prevalent the problem really is.

How about the Rav4 Prime? Same issues?

 

[wbrosche]

Top Post Master Disconnect Switch

+2 on the quick disconnect switch.

I don't see where you responded to this suggestion. This $12 part will save your $500 deposit and eliminate any concerns with parking anywhere long term.

Top Post Battery Master Disconnect Switch

I have used similar device on vehicle I left sitting idle for six months at a stretch when I was working on assignments in other states. As far as on a daily basis, the biggest pain is opening the hood to disconnect.

Until there is some indication that Toyota has figured out the problem, you can always use a battery tender. I use one on a semi-weekly driver just to make sure the electronic don't drain the battery significantly.

When you use the quick connect, eventually the ECU will discharge. So you after reconnecting, you need to be aware that most modern cars will need to be driven at least 30 miles before you can have them inspected. In Texas, they use information from the ECU to gather information about your emissions. The 30 miles is necessary for the ECU to register information they need for inspection.

 

[steveark]

The odds that you will get a car with this rate effect are tiny small. They're are a zillion Rav4's out there and generally they are highly regarded. I would stay the course. The lemon law will save you if needed, but it won't be.

 

[Gevans17]

New 2020 RAV4 electrical problem

Sorry to hear that, but my new RAV purchased in June and now with almost 5,000 miles has been absolutely flawless.

 

[jet757f]

Shouldn't be a big concern if you have Auto Club.

 

[zippy2020]

When we were buying our new Ford Edge SUV, our sales rep - who used to be head of the service dept. at another dealership for a couple of decades - told us that because of all the electronics in cars, with more and more "features" added every year, the battery drain is SUBSTANTIAL on many models/mfgs these days. (the dealership also sold Subarus)

In fact, if you read the instruction manual carefully, Ford will tell you how many days you can expect a battery to last if the car is going to sit around.

Also, one reason we drifted away from Japanese cars was that Honda/Acura batteries were really weak factory quality. You might want to check Consumer Reports, they just did an update on car batteries about a month ago. There was a big difference in the output of the better batteries, for not that much more $$.

One tip I came across in the consumer reviews: never ever let your battery die completely. Not just the "gotta get a jump" stage but the REAL "oops I left my car in the airport parking lot for three solid weeks". Our top-of-the-line Edge has over 2 dozen computer chips(!) and if the battery dies completely - the entire car needs to have the software re-installed and the system rebooted. It can only be done at a dealership.

 

[RobbieB]

I'd just buy the car.

But then I'm not on face book. And I never will.

 

[Hibernian]

If you want perfect, you'll never buy a car. I would buy this Toyota without a concern, as others note, happy campers aren't the ones posting on auto forums mostly. But I would buy that $70 battery jumper, just for peace of mind if driving in out of the way places and was worried about having a charge. The effort you are putting into this purchase is considerable, another $100 of back up seems worthwhile.

 

[shafer9]

No offense, but “gutted” sure makes this a first world problem. Terminal cancer would leave you gutted.
Suck it up, move on, find another truck. There are zillions of em. Be patient.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

When we were buying our new Ford Edge SUV, our sales rep - who used to be head of the service dept. at another dealership for a couple of decades - told us that because of all the electronics in cars, with more and more "features" added every year, the battery drain is SUBSTANTIAL on many models/mfgs these days. (the dealership also sold Subarus)

In fact, if you read the instruction manual carefully, Ford will tell you how many days you can expect a battery to last if the car is going to sit around.

Also, one reason we drifted away from Japanese cars was that Honda/Acura batteries were really weak factory quality. You might want to check Consumer Reports, they just did an update on car batteries about a month ago. There was a big difference in the output of the better batteries, for not that much more $$.

One tip I came across in the consumer reviews: never ever let your battery die completely. Not just the "gotta get a jump" stage but the REAL "oops I left my car in the airport parking lot for three solid weeks". Our top-of-the-line Edge has over 2 dozen computer chips(!) and if the battery dies completely - the entire car needs to have the software re-installed and the system rebooted. It can only be done at a dealership.

Here's an interesting video about service to the PTU ("transfer case") in AWD Fords.

 

[Sunset]

When we were buying our new Ford Edge SUV, ......

In fact, if you read the instruction manual carefully, Ford will tell you how many days you can expect a battery to last if the car is going to sit around.

...... Our top-of-the-line Edge has over 2 dozen computer chips(!) and if the battery dies completely - the entire car needs to have the software re-installed and the system rebooted. It can only be done at a dealership.

I would NEVER knowingly buy a car with this defect.
I have had batteries go dead more often than a flat tire.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

Actually, I will be in cold weather. I plan to move to the mountains of NM or UT in 2021 -- skiing is key.

I discovered the FB Rav4 group (top of the post heap today because yet another person "joined the dead battery club" is how I discovered it), and then digging found it discussed in a Toyota forum, the Rav4World forum, cargurus, kbb.

My "learning" from this is that my research was inadequate, leaning heavily on the Toyota reputation and my 4Runner experience. I had read the editorial reviews at edmunds, caranddriver, and so on, but didn't read the reviews of owners. On one site, the editorial review was 4.7/5.0, but owners were 3.1/5.0, predominantly citing dead battery issues.

Lesson learned.

It's not $500 that's the issue -- that's really chump change in the big picture. I too am risk-averse, especially when I could be stranded in a rural area on my own. It's just that the car ticked all the boxes until this cropped up. And I wanted the car search-and-buying process to be over ....

I am now reading as much as I can find about the 2020 Ford Escape AWD. That's how I will spend Sunday. And I do have a Ford dealer I trust, near Kansas City.

Right now I am leaning 90% toward walking out of the Rav4.

Thanks everyone for calming, soothing and advising me.

I would walk away. If only because every day for the first year, every time I went to start it I would wonder if this was the day it was dead. And if it was, I would have a boatload of buyers remorse.

Cars are a major purchase that you interact with and rely on everyday, usually multiple times per day. Twice I've bought them against what my gut was telling me because I was so happy with the perceived value. I will not do that again.

There are loads of good car choices out there. If you're not feeling like this is a good choice, go with your gut. Move on.

My $0.02.

 

[Canoeboy]

We bought a new RAV4 premium earlier this year as Covid slowed new car sales down. So far so good with 4000 miles on it - zero issues. Wanted a vehicle with lots of safety technology - Toyota seems to have worked those bugs out. We ended up buying an extended bumper to bumper warranty given technology systems are not cheap to repair/replace.