New Rav4 purchase falls apart .... not sure what to do

If only I could have found a nice simple LE AWD!

Finding an XLE was hard, as most of what is left for 2020 is Limited or Adventure or TRD.

So I will be turning off all sorts of stuff that I don't want ....
 
We ordered our last two vehicles. That way, we were able to get exactly what we wanted... even color and interior... and avoid fancy trim levels, or options package that were pricey but were features that we don't value on many of the cars that are on dealer lots.

We had to wait a bit, but it worked out well as it gave me time to sell my old ride for more than what they would have given me in trade.
 
I’ve got a 2018 RAV4 Hybrid and have had no problems in the 2 1/2 years that I’ve owned it. A mechanic once told me “to stick with a Toyota or Honda when considering any vehicle purchase.”

I’ve been happy with the advice.
I
 
I am now reading as much as I can find about the 2020 Ford Escape AWD. That's how I will spend Sunday. And I do have a Ford dealer I trust, near Kansas City.

Right now I am leaning 90% toward walking out of the Rav4.

Thanks everyone for calming, soothing and advising me.[/QUOTE]



Love my 2019 Escape. Have had it 15 months, often it sits for a week at a time, never a battery problem.

OTOH, DH has a 2019 Outback(his third one-he loves it) and has a dead battery issue twice...once the dealer said you can’t listen to the radio with accessories on...The last time it happened, dealership put a better battery in, and our fingers are crossed.
 
In the OP's shoes, I would go back in model years to the year before the last major redesign and consider getting a used one of that vintage.

Cars are really complex these days and it's hard to get everything right with the first year of a new design. What I've seen Toyota and Honda do is tweak those first year designs, getting better and better quality-wise until they feel the need to do a major overhaul again.

I'm actually driving a 1993 Lexus and it's pretty bulletproof as it is towards the middle of one of those evolutionary patterns.

The same thing happened in laser printers at my former employer as well. We'd start with a major design, then tweak that design over several product iterations with moderate improvements in functionality. If I ever had to buy a laser printer, I'd do the same thing and get a model that was the third or fourth or fifth set of tweaks later.

I don't know offhand what year that would be for the RAV4, but it's probably easily google-able.
 
BarbWire said:
VPN and incognito browsing mode ... not enough to keep them from tracking me as I research this?
Click to expand...

That should help. But, if you are using Chrome and/or google to search, then Google and their huge ad network knows. As long as ALL traffic (eg, including DNS) is going across that VPN, and you have plugged other IP address leak tricks (eg WebRTC), then probably your ISP doesn't directly know what you are doing.
 
I can't comment on the reliability of the RAV, but do endorse the new Auto booster power packs. I had my truck serviced and they managed to leave the lights on overnight (I guess somehow they switched it from auto on/off to the leave on setting). The dealer service manager jumped my F150 with one of those little puppies, and it got me wanted to carry one in my vehicles.

I ended up buying this when it was on sale for $59: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BLM981K/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1. I wish now that I had gotten a couple of them (I have multiple vehicles) just to keep with each of them.
 
I knew someone once who used a solar drip charge device in his windshield to ensure that the battery always had juice. Are these a thing still? They might relieve some anxiety.

Anyway, if it were me, I would tell the dealer why you want to back out and ask if he would split the 500 deposit. It's worth a try. But I wouldn't go forward, personally speaking. A new car is a great experience. Who needs even the worry about this issue cropping up.

-BB
 
someguy said:
That should help. But, if you are using Chrome and/or google to search, then Google and their huge ad network knows. As long as ALL traffic (eg, including DNS) is going across that VPN, and you have plugged other IP address leak tricks (eg WebRTC), then probably your ISP doesn't directly know what you are doing.
Click to expand...




FireFox. DuckDuckGo. I use "google" as a verb for searching.
 
Next steps

Thanks, all.

Next steps (having read and noted NTHSA, etc, as well as other discussion and reporting sites):

Colorado dealership where I am buying:

  • I have emailed the sales with details of the issue and expressing my concerns, stressing the safety aspect (solo female, remote areas)
  • I have asked who at the dealership/service department I can talk to about the issue (stressing "knowledgeable")
  • I have told them to delay installing the "paint protection film" until Friday or Monday (scheduled pickup is Tuesday) in case I back out
  • Stressed that I don't want to back out but can't buy a vehicle that I have worries about (maybe setting the stage for deposit refund....)
  • [Future discussion] find out what is done in "prep," how updating all software and firmware is documented, can the battery be replaced with a new fresh battery, etc.
Locally, in TX

  • I am heading over to the good service department at the nearby Toyota 'ship to have a conversation with a senior tech or the service manager. I have the TSB number so I can lead the conversation with that.
Questions include:

  • what is known to him/her and to Toyo about the issue? what is Toyo doing?
  • what does the current TSB mean?
  • will putting in a larger capacity battery (a) help, (b) void the warranty? (apparently the OEM battery capacity is tiny...cheap!)
  • how many of the gizmos and do-dads that pull current after the vehicle is turned off can be disabled?
I would like to make a fish-or-cut-bait decision by tomorrow night. This is compounded by the fact that I don't have a daily driver now (renting from Avis at $250/week). But I have to tell myself not to let that drive a stupid decision.

In parallel I will search for a 2017/18 AWD Rav4, and a 2017-2019 Escape. In this case, used and at the tail end of the previous generations might be wise.

THANK YOU, EVERYONE!
 
skipro33 said:
It would be more than just annoyance. Car computers these days 'learn' a driver's habits and can adjust the vehicle's performance to match. With the Subaru, the MPG improves as the car learns how the operator accelerates, brakes, etc and modifies the fuel curve to compensate. It can be somewhat pre programmed by the driver where the driver/owner can set the style of throttle curve they prefer for example, or shift aggressiveness for city driving, mountain driving, etc. Computer control opens a whole new world on customization of a car to it's owner and sometimes a second owner. A button or specialized key fob will activate certain features of the car for one driver that is set different for another. The Subaru, like many new manufacturer's cars, uses a main screen 'infotainment' system that is tied to a cell phone that you tether. I can use that phone remotely and track my car, set alarm limits to send me texts or e-mails if the car exceeds a high speed limit, a range limit, it will track the car for me and show me on a map where it is, I can start it remotely, honk the horn, lock the doors, etc. all remotely. Work great when my wife has left some place headed home and I want to see where she is if she's late. Also to tell if your kid has been speeding or drove someplace else when they said they were going to a friends to study. Very stealthy and very techy. Disconnecting the battery for any length of time wipes much of that out. There's short term memory storage I presume, but probably not weeks worth if you decide to leave the battery disconnected that long.
Click to expand...

WRT the bolded comment. It is true but the systems are clever enough to remember the settings they have learned and store them in hard memory so that disconnecting the battery will not disrupt the system. The systems I worked on also had one or more "restore points" as backup in addition to the factory settings.
 
Subaru's are notorious for using trash batteries. If you were to purchase a subaru, have then knock $200 off the final price because you want to purchase a battery of quality. They'll budge. SAme thing for rav4.
 
We have a 2019 Subaru Outback. Actually, it is my wife's car. With the virus, she does not drive it much and one day I went to use it and the battery was dead. I put the battery charger on it and charged the battery. I had to reprogram the windows. Since then, I leave a trickle charger hooked onto the battery since the car sits for a couple weeks or more at a time. The car has Eyesight and we have already replaced the windshield. The glass is thinner and not as strong because the Eyesight requires a cleaner glass and breaks easily.

I believe most of these new cars probably have the battery problem because of the security systems, stupid keyless systems, (which I hate), which always draws current from the battery. I do think it is a good idea to have one of those solar panel chargers to plug in if you are parking it outside for lengths of time. I have a 2017 Forester, (and it has a real key), and have not had any problems with it. But then...I ordered it the way I wanted it...without all those special options.

There is also a cheap connector that can be plugged into the OBD port and onto a small 12v battery that will keep all settings if you want to unplug your battery altogether. I have one of those.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Car-OBD-Co...=174068845261094429c939c84088829667ecf153e795
 
ponyboy said:
Subaru's are notorious for using trash batteries. If you were to purchase a subaru, have then knock $200 off the final price because you want to purchase a battery of quality. They'll budge. SAme thing for rav4.
Click to expand...


Not sure that will fly: I have already agreed to a price. It is an in-demand vehicle, so they have no reason to sweeten the pot by $200.

But I might be able to get them to put in a new Toyo battery under "warranty" and fully charge it, especially if the existing battery is more than 6 months old.

And then buy a good battery -- one designed for start-stop systems -- in the immediate future.
 
BarbWire said:
I am absolutely gutted. And torn about what to do.

Last week many of you helped me find a 2020 Toyota Rav4, and I tracked down what I wanted in Colorado (would fly up from Texas). The Costco price was excellent, and the manufacturer's incentive was good as well. Walking out at 12% under MSRP, a very happy camper.

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/need-help-locating-buying-new-awd-rav4-105774.html

But today while researching trailer hitches, I discovered on FB -- and followed up on Toyota and Rav4 discussion forums -- that there is a significant electrical problem with many 2020 Rav4s which renders them un-startable after not being driven. sometimes for as little as overnight! Some of the reports are for vehicles with <1000 miles on them, and one is for a vehicle purchased just a few days earlier: parked on Friday evening, and dead on Monday morning. It displays as a "SmartKey System Malfunction."

It is not known if it is a software glitch or a parasitic drain, but apparently the batteries, registering as "very dead" can be jumped, and when the vehicle driven to the dealership test out as "no problem. You must have left something on."

Some folks are being told that the new vehicles, with all their electrical and electronic components, need to be driven every two days at a minimum. That rules out parking at an airport.

Folks are also being advised to carry a battery jumper -- for a new $35K car. Others report their new vehicles sitting at the dealership for days for "diagnosis" only to come up with "nothing wrong."

I can't figure out just how pervasive the problem is, but on four forums the complaints were as recent as yesterday. It may also be a problem with the 2020 Camry.

I assume that if I call the CO dealer and express my concern, he will say there isn't a problem, or that a software update will solve it. Not according to folks on the forums who have had the DCM updated.

It might be more prudent to call on Monday and kill the deal, and just eat the $500 deposit. I can't have a vehicle I worry about. So much for reliable Toyotas.

And start the search again for another brand/model.

That's the right thing to do, right?

Any other ideas or advice? I am in a tizzy. And none of my friends are "savvy car people" to consult.
Click to expand...

If this problem is as widespread as the reviews seem to indicate, there will be a recall in short order to correct. Toyota can't put up with that kind of advertising for long.

My 2019 Highlander had a recall for the fuel pump, and was replaced, and I never had any trouble before the replacement.
 
VanWinkle said:
If this problem is as widespread as the reviews seem to indicate, there will be a recall in short order to correct. Toyota can't put up with that kind of advertising for long.

My 2019 Highlander had a recall for the fuel pump, and was replaced, and I never had any trouble before the replacement.
Click to expand...


I had a very interesting discussion today with the shop foreman (whom I remember and trust from my 4Runner days circa 2014) at a Texas Toyo dealership

He said that a firmware/software update -- even if required for every vehicle -- will not trigger a recall. Only the requirement to put "wrench on metal" will trigger a recall.

Updating the firmware on the DCM module only merits a TSB and hopefully an automatic flag to do at the next warranty service. Replacing the DCM module itself would require a recall.
 
Car Battery Drain Preventer

A E-R forum friend just told me about an item he installed on his seldom-used vehicle which will "temporarily kill" the electrical system in a vehicle before the battery is completely drained, thus leaving enough battery power to get your vehicle started. Yes, if there are parasitic losses causing a battery to drain, you'll lose the radio settings, etc...but you won't be stranded somewhere with a dead battery.

Here's an item like he described https://www.amazon.com/LI-LEAD-Star...NYJHYRMGV07&psc=1&refRID=28NWXYBB6NYJHYRMGV07

There are some other similar items on amazon. I merely picked this one as the description offers a lot of answers to questions you might have.

So for around $100 you know you always have at least one battery start. And, as it is wired in-series with your battery, it doesn't need any ongoing attention as far as periodic recharging (like a battery pack does).

Thought posters upthread might find this item of interest, since they have mentioned battery drainage issues or concerns with having a vehicle sit for long periods (like at an airport when going away on a lengthy trip).

omni
 
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omni550 said:
A E-R forum friend just told me about an item he installed on his seldom-used vehicle which will "temporarily kill" the electrical system in a vehicle before the battery is completely drained, thus leaving enough battery power to get your vehicle started. Yes, if there are parasitic losses causing a battery to drain, you'll lose the radio settings, etc...but you won't be stranded somewhere with a dead battery.

Here's an item like he described https://www.amazon.com/LI-LEAD-Star...NYJHYRMGV07&psc=1&refRID=28NWXYBB6NYJHYRMGV07

There are some other similar items on amazon. I merely picked this one as the description offers a lot of answers to questions you might have.

So for around $100 you know you always have at least one battery start. And, as it is wired in-series with your battery, it doesn't need any ongoing attention as far as periodic recharging (like a battery pack does).

Thought posters upthread might find this item of interest, since they have mentioned battery drainage issues or concerns with having a vehicle sit for long periods (like at an airport when going away on a lengthy trip).

omni
Click to expand...

All our company fleet vehicles had a device called a Battery Buddy. If the battery voltage dropped to a risky level, it would trip. To reset, there was a button to push. It left enough juice in the battery to give the car a chance to start.
 
Some of these batteries are small to save weight and make EPA mileage numbers. It isn't always cost savings.
 
skipro33 said:
All our company fleet vehicles had a device called a Battery Buddy. If the battery voltage dropped to a risky level, it would trip. To reset, there was a button to push. It left enough juice in the battery to give the car a chance to start.
Click to expand...

I believe that is the same as the device I described.

omni
 
Hmm ............... I have not read all of this , but enough to get the jist of it.


Virtually all newish cars (lets say made in the last 2 or 3 years) , "eat" AH (Amp Hours) when parked up. Typical length of survival before you have a starting problem , is in the 2 to 3 week timescale. So - if you are going to be leaving the car sitting for a month , it will NOT be ok when you come back to it in the majority of cases. I would treat this as a simple fact. In that case you need to have a plan : Plan could be as simple as disconnect the battery at a terminal , have a disconnect switch added , which you can turn off (usually a big red "key") , or have a jump start plan with friend / other battery / whatever ?


If the car is new , and is dying or dies after a few days of sitting , then are you not simply covered by warranty (lift the phone and ask for help ... come get it sorted) ? Clearly this assumes you have not caused the problem by leaving lights on or something like that !


Toyota in Ireland are considered a good reliable vehicle - and their designs are not designed to fail .. they should work, and work reliably


Assuming new vehicle and sensible warranty period , I would be tempted to proceed and get them to sort any problems .... and make them aware of your concerns and expectations before you proceed. (Give THEM the chance to cancel the sale and refund your deposit if they are not happy to proceed and stand over their new car)


I'll stop now
 
Did some more online reading. This could, as noted by many, simply be a bad batch of batteries.

It could also be a single device continuing to pull power - buddy of mine had a 2000ish 7 Series BMW than would drain the battery every few days unless something mounted in dash (can't recall) was replaced (about $1200 to remove major portions of the dash).

And, the usual "old folks" lamentations are noted: :)

- I'll never have those e-lectric windows
- seatbelts are dangerous
- those chip things? won't never run
- air bags? they'll kill us
- a gadget to open my garage? silly!
- air conditioned seats? stupid
- power steering? getouttahere
- radial tires? manufacturers just wanna sell us something newfangled
- radios that get sound from somewhere? huh
- starter motor when Nanny can turn the crank?
- etc
- etc
- etc
 
OP here (waves!)

Many of the modern systems are very good, to be sure. I love power windows and locks, and back-up cameras. XM radio can be nice to have. The problem is that the vehicles are becoming so electronically complex -- both in the foreground and in the background -- that it is hard to figure out what is going on, and of course, there is the constant battery drain.

I am renting a 2020 Rav4 from Avis now, which has the owner's manual in the glovebox. A long evening of perusing the 736 page manual was eye-opening. If the smartkey system is not used for five days several functions shut down. If it is not used for more than 14 days, most functions are shutdown. It is also noted that because the electronics continue to draw current when the car is off, it should be driven at least once a week to prevent battery depletion.

A friend with a top-trim level 2014 Sienna checked his owner's guide: no such admonitions. And they've left their minivan at the airport for three weeks at a time with no issues. He said they now have incentive to make their minivan last 25 years....

So, I've been warned that leaving the car at the airport for a week or longer would require a re-start strategy. Hmmm

This is, of course, separate from the rogue rapid battery discharge issue. I talked to the very helpful (and sympathetic) service foreman at the local Toyota dealership yesterday. He said that the TSB for a DCM firmware upgrade has solved about half the cases they have dealt with. The others have a recurring problem, as yet undiagnosed, but his guess is a bad sensor. He reckoned they've had about a dozen cases of mystery dead battery in the past few months.

Meanwhile, at the CO dealership where I may be buying the vehicle, the new sales guy (i was passed from the e-sales guy to a floor sales guy to finish everything) dismissed my concerns, saying he had never heard of the problem. He also wouldn't refer me to anyone in service, telling me just to call the general service number. I googled this new sales guy: he's 27, and he sounds like he thinks he knows everything.

So good help at the dealership where I am not buying the vehicle, and brush-off at the dealership where I have the deposit....
 
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