Not every kid is an engineer. What do we do about the others?

[Mdlerth]

The true value of the degree lies in demonstrating the ability to learn

I get frustrated with the parental "we'll only pay for a paying career like engineering"

+1

I keep reading comments disdaining some majors (psychology, literature, history, etc.) as wasteful because they don't result in instant job offers the way engineering, nursing, and accounting do. It might be instructive to consider a slightly longer-term perspective.

Two of my children majored in psychology. Neither is a psychologist, but it didn't matter. Those sheepskins were prerequisites to get into the fields they wanted.

The son is a professional firefighter. There are a thousand applicants for every vacancy. Round 1 of the weed-out process is "Are you a college graduate?"

The daughter is an epidemiologist with a MPH. Her marketable skill set is statistics, but she wouldn't have been accepted into grad school without a bachelor's degree.

I, OTOH, hold a master's in mechanical engineering. I learned about tensors and divergence and curl and boundary layers. But when was the last time Megacorp called on me to solve Navier-Stokes equations in cylindrical coordinates? (Spoiler alert: Never.)

A final observation: my youngest abandoned college after a year and a half. She works as a chef and loves it. She will never lack employment because she has a strong work ethic. That industry is a prime example of Woody Allen's observation "80% of success is showing up".

 

[Oakster]

So the other college thread got me thinking. It seems the prevailing mantra here is, we'll pay as long as you pick a major that is "profitable".

Maybe it's because neither one of my kids are engineer material that I ask a very simple question and I admit I take it personal when someone says "Im not wasting money on a kid that has a psychology degree"

What happens to the millions of kids that are not computer geeks or engineers?

Do we simply say, tough tookies kiddo, should have picked a better major? and exactly how does one force their kid to be good at say computer science? If we pay one kids tuition but don't like the other kids major, again do we without financial support?


lol my youngest son graduated with a communications degree and is working for the Univ of Penn. my oldest lol is a plumber/pipefitter with the city of philly and will probably make more money then all his friends.

The kids do not have to be technical, but they should have a major selected that provides a good enough income to support his life and his future family along with job placement odds that are pretty good. If they are not going to school for something that is reasonable to support their future, then it is more of a hobby and not education for a future career. It is not the goal of parenting to pay for a kids adult hobbies, or to set them up for a difficult future that they will struggle to support themselves on. On the bright side, this is America and parents can pay for whatever they want to pay for.

**Kudos on the trade for the oldest boy. There is nothing wrong with joining the workforce through trade school or on the job education. Its an earlier start and the world needs electricians, plumbers and woodworkers etc. Welders can be some of the highest paid people on a project. My middle boy is an Apprentice Electrician right now, my oldest boy manages large group for a global machine works company. My daughter wants to be a lawyer.... 7 years....

 

[isisdave]

+1

I keep reading comments disdaining some majors (psychology, literature, history, etc.) as wasteful because they don't result in instant job offers the way engineering, nursing, and accounting do. It might be instructive to consider a slightly longer-term perspective.

I think the point was not to borrow money to go to Super Premium U to major in psychology or art history. If you're undecided or just want to get started, do that at a state college or even community college. Two years later, you might have a better compass on where you want to head.

Actually, I wouldn't go to Super Premium to start in engineering, either. (As they say, fifty years ago I couldn't spell engineer, and now I are one.)

Learning coding is next to pointless unless it's associated with some kind of internship or entry into the business. I coded for 35 years, on and off, and any time I stayed on one platform for more than two years, I became obsolete and in need of retraining. It changes that quickly.

Final thought: a very large amount of coding (and IT in general) has been offshored to India, Thailand, and probably Brunei next. Drywalling, on the other hand, is always sourced locally. And with the dropping birth rate, there are going to be fewer tradespeople to serve more aging hippies. If you want a stable, rewarding career, I don't see how you can go wrong in a physical trade.

 

[Oakster]

Spouse and myself are both engineers. Looking back, I wish I'd have gone into the trades while I was still in HS and not even bothered with college. I came for a middle class family that didn't really have money for me to go to school, but it was also sort of ingrained into my head that being a plumber for instance, was "beneath" me. College paid off for me and I have a stable good paying career, but it was a TON of work to get it and I still work for the Man, having to schedule time off to see a doc, call in if I'm feeling ill, nonsense performance reviews, corporate politics, endless useless meetings, etc...... It's not all it's cracked up to be IMO.

I imagine if I'd have gone into the trades I would've opened my own shop and been the Man early on in my career.

You could have opened your own shop in Engineering as well. Many people do that once they get trained and understand how to manage a project competently. There is always risk in starting up your own business, and I wish I had done it but instead I am a manager for a large Engineering Consulting company that is employee owned. I have a lot of freedom, learned some great skills and collaborate with some of the best in the business. Engineering has been good for me for sure. There are a log of options in the industry.

 

[Aerides]

I find it a bit ironic that many of us here are promoting "get a degree for a good paying job, period" vs. something you love and have a passion for, that might not pay near as well.

How many of us would have needed to ER if we loved our work? For many (including me), not loving it, was a key driver in leaving the work force early. Perhaps if I'd had a more enjoyable, meaningful career, I'd still be working, happily.

I get it, it's silly to pay top tier tuition rates for something that's going to yield a $30k starting salary. But it's probably better to find an economic approach for the undergrad degree that they want, than pushing a kid to learn something they don't really care about, because it will give them a better salary, only to hate their jobs.

 

[meleana]

So the other college thread got me thinking. It seems the prevailing mantra here is, we'll pay as long as you pick a major that is "profitable".

Maybe it's because neither one of my kids are engineer material that I ask a very simple question and I admit I take it personal when someone says "Im not wasting money on a kid that has a psychology degree"

What happens to the millions of kids that are not computer geeks or engineers?

Do we simply say, tough tookies kiddo, should have picked a better major? and exactly how does one force their kid to be good at say computer science? If we pay one kids tuition but don't like the other kids major, again do we without financial support?


lol my youngest son graduated with a communications degree and is working for the Univ of Penn. my oldest lol is a plumber/pipefitter with the city of philly and will probably make more money then all his friends.

I know exactly what you mean. Our son originally wanted to be a broadcast meteorologist. Researched and sent him to an out of state college that was known for this in a setting that suited him. He was kind of ambivalent about the whole college thing but we pushed him to go away and long story short he couldn't cut the chemistry and math so he and his girlfriend (originally an English major) switched to communications.


Heck- with that degree we could have sent him to an in state college that would have been so much less expensive.



He ended up living in the same college town after graduation ( a rural area) and eventually got a low paying sales job with an international company. A 4 year degree was actually required for that job amazingly. It's the type of job you think would pay a lot more, but it doesn't. He hates change so he is still there, though he does not like sales.


When he first graduated he floundered a while. He had some part-time jobs- even staying at a horse ranch and cleaning the stables and cooking for some foreign students who rented rooms there in exchange for room and board. He was intent on not coming home to live as he loved being on his own in college. (He is an only child and we live in a secluded rural area)


But at one point I wrote him a letter and essentially told him we were going to have to cut him off with some things- like health insurance and the car insurance and so forth and he needed to get a real job. He was not going on interviews or anything.


It worked.


He is now 31 and he works on weekends as well at a Brewery (which he loves doing) and also a restaurant making wood fired pizzas. He always liked cooking and that type of atmosphere at restaurants. He considered at one time going to culinary but we did want him to get an academic degree. We told him he would always get mentored or on the job experience for cooking. So there he is now.


He struggles to make ends meet, is not married, we have no grandchildren, he lives in an old studio apartment, kind of a loner outside work, but has friends and has had several girlfriends who broke up with him over the years. Has a cat.


He lost 113 lbs a few years ago and had taken up running.


He lives his own life. We hardly hear from him or speak to him, but we love him and we are close- just different from what other people have.


Meanwhile, our friends kids are all engineers, teachers, nurses, actuaries, married, kids houses on wall street. Many are married with kids and own homes. They ask us about him we say he is fine. Nothing to talk about.



We sit alone on some holidays or just the 3 of us. Nothing happening . Very quiet.


But- we are all healthy and we have to accept everyone for who they are- or aren't.

 

[DFDubb]

You could have opened your own shop in Engineering as well. Many people do that once they get trained and understand how to manage a project competently. There is always risk in starting up your own business, and I wish I had done it but instead I am a manager for a large Engineering Consulting company that is employee owned. I have a lot of freedom, learned some great skills and collaborate with some of the best in the business. Engineering has been good for me for sure. There are a log of options in the industry.

My Mega Corp builds 100+ million dollar aircraft (project I work on and the entirety of my engineering experience). There is a big difference between buying a couple of vans and hiring a couple guys to unclog toilets versus starting an aerospace company and lets say supplying parts to my Mega under the DoD regulations.

 

[World Traveler]

The kids do not have to be technical, but they should have a major selected that provides a good enough income to support his life and his future family along with job placement odds that are pretty good. If they are not going to school for something that is reasonable to support their future, then it is more of a hobby and not education for a future career. It is not the goal of parenting to pay for a kids adult hobbies, or to set them up for a difficult future that they will struggle to support themselves on. On the bright side, this is America and parents can pay for whatever they want to pay for.

**Kudos on the trade for the oldest boy. There is nothing wrong with joining the workforce through trade school or on the job education. Its an earlier start and the world needs electricians, plumbers and woodworkers etc. Welders can be some of the highest paid people on a project. My middle boy is an Apprentice Electrician right now, my oldest boy manages large group for a global machine works company. My daughter wants to be a lawyer.... 7 years....

That’s my point is it worth going 100-200k in debt. I’ve seen friends take out loans from their 401k to pay for kids college. Do you think kids care when they change majors? Avg 5 yrs for a non tech degree. I almost think it is better to go and work for a couple years then go to school when they have a plan on what they want to do. Last one graduates this Saturday from college(non-engineering).Wahoo!

 

[dirtbiker]

One of the biggest scams in this country is that expensive private colleges are worth the money. They're not in most cases, with some exceptions, particularly for a bachelor's degree. Send your kids to a state university and, if possible, have them commute from home. This sends the cost of college from 100-200k to less than 40-50k in most cases.

My kids know that their college is covered for the in-state state university system schools. If they want to go to an expensive private school or out of state to one of the big universities, it's on them to get a scholarship or take out loans (God I hope they don't go this route).

 

[sengsational]

... we have to accept everyone for who they are- or aren't.

Ain't THAT the truth. And the more you accept and find the joy in what you have (as opposed to compare), the happier you'll be.

 

[Music Lover]

I know a lot of people in trades that have carved out a very, very nice living for themselves. And they have the added bonus of knowing other people in trades from their work, so whenever they need something outside of their skillset they always "know a guy".

If I had to do it over again, I'd take a trade without a second thought.

 

[Retch The Grate]

I find it a bit ironic that many of us here are promoting "get a degree for a good paying job, period" vs. something you love and have a passion for, that might not pay near as well.

How many of us would have needed to ER if we loved our work? For many (including me), not loving it, was a key driver in leaving the work force early. Perhaps if I'd had a more enjoyable, meaningful career, I'd still be working, happily.

I've made enough money to be comfortable from my career, but it was definitely selected as something I was passionate about (making video games) rather than profit maximizing (staying in the broader tech industry as a software engineer and rising up the management ranks). I've always been aiming for FI more than RE, but I'm still expecting to RE at some point. despite having an enjoyable meaningful career full of emotionally and intellectually rewarding experiences.

I'm really looking forward to being fully FI at my target spending rate and we'll see how long after that the ER part comes.

 

[stephenson]

Long thread ... perhaps someone has already spoken to this ...

I always felt the benefit of college is that it prepared me to learn - opened my eyes and my head to the rest of the world.

While this may be a bit contentious, I've found most college educated folks to be a bit more open to new ideas, to progressiveness, and to learning. Not all, certainly - and, assuming those who did not go to college to be less well read is obviously fraught.

Frankly, I wasted much of my time in college - wanting only to "get out." However, it was eventually clear to me that learning to learn is probably the most important concept accidentally taught.

I have tried since those college years to make up for my lack of listening and inattentiveness.

 

[Music Lover]

Long thread ... perhaps someone has already spoken to this ...

I always felt the benefit of college is that it prepared me to learn - opened my eyes and my head to the rest of the world.

While this may be a bit contentious, I've found most college educated folks to be a bit more open to new ideas, to progressiveness, and to learning.

Maybe colleges used to be like that, but no longer. Today many of them reject any ideas other than a very narrow minded viewpoint.

 

[stephenson]

Hmmm ... can only talk to recent experiences ... both showed the institutions to be very much like what I recalled from 40 years ago - only more so.

One was a state college for son 1 undergrad, and then another state college for his MBA. Son 2 went into music performance and even there it was very much oriented toward thoughtful interaction - both at the undergrad and grad levels.

Now, colleges and universities have, as a side effect of being more isolated and intellectually oriented (read: less do and more discuss, evaluate, consider), always been more "progressive" and left of center - it is part of their nature. Friends used to complain about their kids coming home from university with wild ideas - I always told them it was part of the deal.

 

[Amethyst]

Male nurses rock

As the proud parents of an absolutely awesome nurse practitioner son, DW & I thank you for that recognition.

 

[Amethyst]

The ones with the savvy and interpersonal skills to open their own businesses, can do very, very well indeed. A neighbor ER'd at 50, after selling his self-made construction business for millions. His five sons are all set. I'm not sure any of them went to college but they all have very nice homes

I know a lot of people in trades that have carved out a very, very nice living for themselves. And they have the added bonus of knowing other people in trades from their work, so whenever they need something outside of their skillset they always "know a guy".

If I had to do it over again, I'd take a trade without a second thought.

 

[someday soon]

My younger daughter is starting her post-grad poetry program in a couple months.
Yep...here we go!

 

[dirtbiker]

Maybe colleges used to be like that, but no longer. Today many of them reject any ideas other than a very narrow minded viewpoint.

This simply isn't true. It is in some universities, but they are in the minority. Sure, universities, by and large, are left-leaning for sure, and that's going to be the general mindset on most campuses. However, the education and the experience that you get will be based upon the individual professors that teach you largely.

 

[ncbill]

I was surprised to not see aviation listed here. There are going to be 20,000 pilot jobs vacant in the immediate future outside of the military. The military is short 2,500 pilots now. The former doesn't require a degree but the latter does and usually in engineering. A person can work their way up in civilian aviation starting with a Private Pilot's license and then get the commercial and Instrument ratings. Once you do that you can work as an instructor to build time. You can also fly commercial jobs like ferrying, parachutists, aviation tours and build time and experience. It is not easy to compete with the military pilots but not impossible either. I have several friends who did it without any college or serving in the military.

My oldest kid has been assigned to flight school following their graduation/commissioning next month.

My youngest has almost finished their PPL...which was expensive enough.

Instrument, multi-engine, commercial are all very pricey going the civilian route, so we won't be paying for those, they can get that on their own.

Since they're Army ROTC they'd have no trouble flying rotary after graduation if that's what they want.

 

[jIMOh]

There is a growing trend - tech or bust. The phrase "Learn2Code" is used so disparagingly it's banned on twitter.

I was an IT director at the end of my career, having come through the business, then project management - never a programmer/engineer. But I was damn good at managing dev teams, working with them to drive a concept or vision, setting strategy and gaining funding, all that other stuff. I used to say I can't cook but I can run an excellent kitchen.

But in the last year or so of working, it because clear that wasn't enough. Not enough for people who would not reasonably never need to code, who had done well without coding for 10+ years. The job requirement changes went all the way up through IT. The number of roles that didn't require coding skills dropped precipitously.

My hunch is the pendulum will swing (again and again). The kids entering school today who get tech degrees will be a dime a dozen in a few years. Not everyone wants to code, or has the aptitude for it. While I think a teenager should learn some basics, I would not say "you need that degree or it's a waste of money". No one has a crystal ball, and the past is not always a predictor.

I am one of the most non technical people ever awarded a degree from a top 5 engineering school. I have project management experience too, and I see many around me which do not have degrees, but are technical, or have non technical degrees, but work in an IT related field.

A couple points to add
1) If someone is good at MS Excel and Macros, I would think they are highly employable in a technical job. We do as much with spreadsheets as we do with databases.

2) There is high demand for people which can identify problems and define problems. Technical people are needed to solve them, however the front end requires soft skills and abstract thinking more than an engineering degree would ever help.

3) I have worked for 25+ years and have not had to solve a calculus problem once. Why did I take 9 years of calculus (2 HS, 7 college)?

 

[stephenson]

Some thoughts:

While I assume it is possible to be a commercial airline pilot without a degree - based on hours and certifications - this is pretty unusual. The point of the degree in these cases, to me, is to ensure a broad education - usually helpful in managing large aircrews, interfacing with ground crews, operations departments, foreign governments, etc.

The Army is a bit of an outlier in aviation - my data could be dated. They had non-degreed warrant officers flying helos - mainly because there were so darn many helos needed. I don't think they were in command of squadrons or units of aircraft, though, so there was a limit to promotability.

To jIMOh's comment - the engineering field I just departed required calculus daily - almost as a thought process - then applied via various low end tools and then high end tool development that was sometimes part of the requirement to even make the device work - then the proof tools - then the Failure Review Board tools and models ... I would strongly recommend carrying on the tradition of maximizing math skills for engineers. We actually had mentorship programs where the PhDs in math worked with the regular folks to get them thinking the right way ... increasing involved and integrated efforts.

 

[aja8888]

3) Why did I take 9 years of calculus (2 HS, 7 college)?

Probably for the same reasons many of us took it (5 courses in Calc and one in Diff E....it was required.

 

[38Chevy454]

3) I have worked for 25+ years and have not had to solve a calculus problem once. Why did I take 9 years of calculus (2 HS, 7 college)?

I joke that as an engineer the hardest math I had to do was add up my expense account. But reality is that the need to understand calculus is required, even if I was not doing it myself. The calculus and higher (diff equations or more), is also one of the weeding out techniques used in colleges. Those engineering majors that can't handle the math ultimately switch majors.


One skill that at least in my experience not taught in engineering school, but seems to becoming more prevalent in the job, is program mgmt skills. Many engineers do more program mgmt than actual technical work. Especially later in your career, it was the case for me becoming less everyday technical and more program mgmt.

 

[Big_Hitter]

3) I have worked for 25+ years and have not had to solve a calculus problem once. Why did I take 9 years of calculus (2 HS, 7 college)?

how in the world did you take 9 years of calc in college? did you fail it a few times?

I did 3 semesters of calculus and have about 100 hours of college math. I've never heard of anyone taking 9 years of calculus.

oh, btw, I had to use calculus a lot on actuarial exams