Outback, CR-V, Rav 4, Prius - Help me choose

[FI FELLOW]

If you like luxury take a look at the 2019 Buick Encore. Similar in size to the HRV but incredibly quiet and smooth on the road. The LE2 1.4L turbo engine has enough power, and is only $250 more than the anemic base LUJ engine (not recommended). I just bought one (Essence trim package with leather, power everything, active noise cancellation and AWD) for $26K. Great deal.

My other car is a 2019 Dodge Challenger Hellcat (717HP). The Encore is my "sensible other car"

 

[jhmccox32]

Prius Prime! It’s got a 25ish mile electric only range then switches to hybrid (50-70 mph depending on how you drive) after those are used up. No wear and tear on your engine for close trips, but the option for the thousand mile trips. Lots of safety features to choose from. Considered a level 2 autonomous car. Dynamic cruise control, warnings for lane deviation, not holding the steering wheel, BRAKE! Warning if traffic is stopped suddenly, etc. Not bad to look at either.

 

[2lhasas]

The 2019 Rav-4 hybrid recently got a great review Car and Driver. As I recall they were impressed that the hybrid version had zero disadvantages and performed better than the regular version. You should give it a test drive

I got the 2019 Rav-4 hybrid Limited a month ago (my husband gets Toyotas at cost due to his work and he's retiring at the end of the year - so time to upgrade everything). It is very comfortable, and the various safety features are impressive. I haven't really figured it all out yet, but the 360 cameras and digital rear view mirror are excellent.

It will also keep you in the center of a lane if you get sloppy, warn you when someone if someone is about to walk behind your car, shows how close you are to objects as you park, reads and displays speed limit signs on the dash. Last week, it started to sprinkle and my wipers automatically came on - much to my surprise.

I've taken it on a couple of hiking trips, down some fairly well maintained forest service gravel roads and it handled well. It's not a Ferrari, but it handles well enough for my needs. We have driven nothing by Toyota for the last 17 years and had zero issues. My son inherited my 2012 4Runner and I expect it will serve him well for a good while.

 

[jayanu]

I think from the Subaru lineup, the Forester would be more akin to the RAV-4 and the CRV in terms of size, performance, features, and price. The Outback is a step up.

I agree. Accord gives better mpg tne CR-V. But if you want SUV then Subaru and Rav-4 are better choices IMHO.

 

[Caskem]

Outback

We are on our seventh Subaru and sixth Outback. Highly recommended.

 

[travelover]

We are on our seventh Subaru and sixth Outback. Highly recommended.

You must be old. I keep cars at least 10 years.

 

[RunningBum]

You must be old. I keep cars at least 10 years.

Why do you think the length of time you keep a car has anything to do with how long caskem does?

 

[pb4uski]

Or perhaps Caskem has two of them.... I recall a house we pass by golfing that always has two late model Outbacks in the driveway.

Or perhaps Caskem isn't as [-]cheap[/-] frugal as travelover.

 

[travelover]

Why do you think the length of time you keep a car has anything to do with how long caskem does?

Usually people keep cars they really like and they tend to like them because they are trouble free for a long time. But I guess some people love 'em and leave 'em.

 

[RIGM]

In my prior life, I owned an industrial operations consulting company. Many of the engineers, including myself, did work for many of the major auto companies, working on quality improvement, training workers, improving on-floor production operations, etc. Here are some thoughts:

- I suggest googling JD Power and looking at their 2019 automotive reviews of brands and specific vehicles. US New and World Reports also does auto reviews. Consumer Reports does as well, but I discount their reviews a bit (primary focus is on value versus best vehicle - and value for the dollar is only one metric). Here are some summary points from JD Power: mid-priced cars are getting better and have closed the gap with luxury brands; Yet, Lexus and Porsche were still at the top of their rankings, but to my first point, I recall Buick doing well (not sure if I remember that correctly); some brands with good reputations didn't live up to those reputations; JD Power's ratings are in 5 different categories of reliability, performance, etc.

- My personal view is that Toyota (and especially Lexus) still commands the high ground in overall quality, but (per above) many other brands are getting much closer. Still, specific models within any brand may vary in overall customer satisfaction scores. Even individual cars coming off the line may vary in quality (that is the holy grail for manufacturers, to reduce to zero the variation in quality), but with the better brands (with better company cultures, design and training), your chances of getting a lemon are reduced.

- Of course, you have to know what you value. People don't always choose the most reliable vehicle (nor the cheapest, nor fastest, nor most stylish, nor most utilitarian, ...). So Toyota reliability, if it exists in the model you're considering, may or may not matter so much to you.

- Drive all the candidates (spend the time). The quantitative analysis and reviews often go out the window because of how the car feels. So take both quantitative and qualitative data into account.

 

[RIGM]

Here is a pertinent page (best small SUV's), although it is only ratings based on dependability:

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/rating...ility-most-dependable-small-suvs?make=&model=

There is a lot of other information on the cars you mentioned (and others) on their site.

I had forgotten another conclusion I had in reviewing the 2019 JD Power ratings: the Korean brands have improved greatly and did really well this year. That may only encompass quality / durability ratings, and not performance or overall customer satisfaction, can't recall, but their high scores in at least some categories really surprised me.

 

[Midpack]

- I suggest googling JD Power and looking at their 2019 automotive reviews of brands and specific vehicles. US New and World Reports also does auto reviews. Consumer Reports does as well, but I discount their reviews a bit (primary focus is on value versus best vehicle - and value for the dollar is only one metric). Here are some summary points from JD Power: mid-priced cars are getting better and have closed the gap with luxury brands; Yet, Lexus and Porsche were still at the top of their rankings, but to my first point, I recall Buick doing well (not sure if I remember that correctly); some brands with good reputations didn't live up to those reputations; JD Power's ratings are in 5 different categories of reliability, performance, etc.

That’s interesting, just the opposite of my views. I considering Consumer Reports to be a much better source of auto reviews, they evaluate 17 categories over 5 years if available - and show every reader all the details.

As for JD Powers, the most often touted JD Power award seems to be initial quality.

1. I wouldn’t base any “award” on the first 90 days of ownership, ANY car should seem like a quality car for the first 90 days! Initial quality is determined by the number of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality (no mention of accounting for severity of problems - so a major issue counts the same as a trivial issue?).
2. Same with the JD Power performance ratings, based on the first 90 days.
3. At least their dependability ratings are based on reliability after 3 years, though Consumer Reports goes back 5 years.
4. They provide a deprecation rating, but I don’t know what it’s based on.
5. And they also rate dealer experience - within any make/model I’d expect dealer experience would vary all over the place so a composite rating isn’t very meaningful. It certainly hasn’t been my experience that all dealers for a given make are the same in the same (big) city, much less across a state or the USA.

I’d mostly ignore JD Powers, especially the “J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality Study” (first 90 days). It seems like something automakers conjured up to give themselves awards for ad copy.

Conducted annually for 32 years, the J.D. Power Initial Quality StudySM (IQS), seeks to identify makes and new models that are the most trouble-free for their owners. Each year, J.D. Power surveys thousands of original buyers and lessees of new cars, trucks, SUVs, and vans after the first 90 days of ownership to identify problems with new-vehicle design and defects or malfunctions. Results are analyzed, and findings are published in the IQS.

Based on this information, J.D. Power creates Power Circle ratings, expressed on a 1-5-point scale, with 5 being the highest. These ratings help consumers to quickly determine the initial quality of a new vehicle, which J.D. Power also finds is a predictor of long-term durability. Consumers can use ratings to compare vehicles to help make a final choice.

 

[RIGM]

As they say here in the West, "yer places yer bets and yer takes yer chances." All ratings are flawed or in some way biased. I had a business partner who said, "Whatever I tell you, I'm exactly wrong." I like that.

I previously have shared my issue with CR: to me it has an overly-developed focus on economy or transportation value at the cost of de-emphasizing performance, style, or luxury. You can't use CR very well for historical data on brand new cars if you have to wait 5 years for a dependability rating. Not that JD Power is perfect, as you point out some potential issues.

JD Power does break down the problems into vehicle systems, so you know whether the quality issue is with the transmission vs the radio. That gives some measure of importance to their frequency count.

I don't think that JD Power is in the pockets of the automakers, or we'd see consistent wins by certain brands over the years - and we don't. For example, I mentioned the surprising improvement of the Korean brands.

I mentioned three sources. While none are perfect, any of those to me are less biased than the auto magazines or many other online sources of info. I implied that I would look at all of them before making a decision.

I personally prefer buying used since vehicles are a depreciating asset. In any price category, a vehicle with, say, 20,000 miles on it is a much better value and still under warranty. There also is a lot more data available on used vehicles. I think someone previously mentioned the strategy of buying used.

 

[travelover]

........I’d mostly ignore JD Powers, especially the “J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality Study” (first 90 days). It seems like something automakers conjured up to give themselves awards for ad copy.

Having worked in the industry for a whole career and spent many an hour going over these and the company's own internal surveys, I agree. In the first 90 days, most of the quibbles are over things like the feel of the interior upholstery or dealing with the interactive screen, not things like whether the transmission died, which is what I'd really care about.

 

[RIGM]

There are 2 (of 5) rating categories at JD Power that deal with Quality with a big "Q":

Quality (my bold/blue below):
"The 2018 J.D. Power Quality ratings and awards are based on feedback of verified car owners who have owned or leased their new car for 90 days. This rating focuses on problems experienced by verified owners and has been shown over the years to be an excellent predictor of long-term durability. Simply put, the fewer the problems, the higher the score."

and,

Dependability:
"The 2019 Dependability ratings and awards measure the responses from more than 80,000 verified owners of 3-year-old vehicles annually. This rating focuses on the type and number of problems owners experienced during the preceding 12 months with their 3-year-old vehicle. The fewer the number of problems reported by car owners, the higher the score."

The other three major categories JD Power uses are Performance, Depreciation and Dealer Experience.

 

[Redbugdave]

I enjoy Scotty's stuff. Here's a couple:

 

[Midpack]

There are 2 (of 5) rating categories at JD Power that deal with Quality with a big "Q":

Quality (my bold/blue below):
"The 2018 J.D. Power Quality ratings and awards are based on feedback of verified car owners who have owned or leased their new car for 90 days. This rating focuses on problems experienced by verified owners and has been shown over the years to be an excellent predictor of long-term durability. Simply put, the fewer the problems, the higher the score."

and,

Dependability:
"The 2019 Dependability ratings and awards measure the responses from more than 80,000 verified owners of 3-year-old vehicles annually. This rating focuses on the type and number of problems owners experienced during the preceding 12 months with their 3-year-old vehicle. The fewer the number of problems reported by car owners, the higher the score."

The other three major categories JD Power uses are Performance, Depreciation and Dealer Experience.

Oh, if JD Power says the first 90 days is an excellent predictor, that changes everything - not at all self serving. If it’s such a great indicator, why doesn’t anyone else use that data?

And I mentioned all 5 metrics, but “Initial Quality” is the most often mentioned “award” - based on the first 90 days repairs. NO car should need ANY repairs in the first 90 days.

If you value the JD Powers ratings, that’s fine. I’ll continue to ignore any “award” based on the first 90 days that I intend to own for 8-10 years...

https://www.motortrend.com/news/j-d...ard-but-do-they-really-measure-quality-25937/

J. D. Power Quality Ratings: They’re the Industry Standard… But do They Really Measure Quality?

While Power's research touches every automaker and many other companies around the world, it is best known for its annual surveys of automotive quality and dependability. And while these yield meaningful data…they are also subject to misinterpretation by the media, and by extension the public. Most media understand simple comparisons: vehicle A beats vehicle B; Brand C beats D. But such comparisons can be misleading if you don't understand the data.

One important factor is that Power surveys don't differentiate between major and minor problems, or between things that malfunction or break and things that dissatisfy. Engine and transmission failures count the same as wind noise, squeaks and rattles; poor fuel economy the same as poor fits. If this is a quality survey, shouldn't it tally only quality complaints?

 

[Caskem]

Or we might have more than one driver in the family. Might give that a quick think...

 

[Chuckanut]

I previously have shared my issue with CR: to me it has an overly-developed focus on economy or transportation value at the cost of de-emphasizing performance, style, or luxury. You can't use CR very well for historical data on brand new cars if you have to wait 5 years for a dependability rating. Not that JD Power is perfect, as you point out some potential issues.

I have to somewhat disagree.

I think the old CR was very focused on economy and value, perhaps overly so. But, the new version of CR is more modern and takes into account changes in their subscriber base. While value and economy are important, other things such as the 'fun' factor come into play when they review a car. Driving comfort is more important. And, of course, safety is a big concern.

I have found them to be very accurate. Once in my life I ignored their recommendations and 'Frequency of Repair' information on the advice of a car buyer professional. That was when I purchased my 1985 Pontiac 6000. This is the car that made me swear off GM products for the rest of my life. After 40K miles it was just a matter of two or three months until the next repair was needed. Since then I take CR's recommendations and repair information very seriously.

 

[cbslc]

I also have a CX-5, but I got a 2016 with a manual tranny. Averaging 35.4 MPG so far - not too shabby.
But, I just drove with my friends Prius and he is averaging 51 mpg. And we could still get all our backpacks in the back.
So if you don't need ground clearance, I would say do the prius.

 

[pb4uski]

...I’d mostly ignore JD Powers, especially the “J.D. Power U.S. Initial Quality Study” (first 90 days). It seems like something automakers conjured up to give themselves awards for ad copy.

Having worked in the industry for a whole career and spent many an hour going over these and the company's own internal surveys, I agree. In the first 90 days, most of the quibbles are over things like the feel of the interior upholstery or dealing with the interactive screen, not things like whether the transmission died, which is what I'd really care about.

+2

 

[scrinch]

Chuckanut, I'm late to the party, but have another suggestion if you are still in the car market. I just went through the same search you did, and I'm 6'3", 34 inseam, size 14 feet, with two shiny new metal-and-plastic knees. I eventually settled on the Kia Niro Plug-in Hybrid. It is surprisingly roomy in both the front and rear seats, both in terms of leg- and headroom (and it's easy to get into and out of...tall doors). It has a little less cargo space than the CRV and RAV4, but still enough for me, and the rear seats fold down for lots of space if there are only 1 or 2 in the car. The Niro gets mid-40's mpg, plus whatever miles you drive in EV-mode are gas-free. I bought the mid-level EX trim model, and it comes with all the new safety bells and whistles. The MSRP was $33.5k...I paid $32k, received a $1k rebate, and will get $6k in federal and state tax credits this year. That's a total of $25k plus t&l for a new, safe, crossover-looking plug-in hybrid that can drive around town (26 miles) on no gas at all. The car has fairly upright seating and better ground clearance than most sedans. No AWD is available, however.

 

[Chuckanut]

After a good deal of research it came down to the Subaru Outback and the RAV4 Hybrid. Both are very equivalent in my estimation. I live in a state with some of the most expensive gasoline in the country, and that tipped it to the RAV4 Hybrid.

I ended up with a 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid LE. So far I really like the car. But, ask me again in about 24,0000 miles.

FWIW, I bought it through the Costco program.

 

[W2R]

After a good deal of research it came down to the Subaru Outback and the RAV4 Hybrid. Both are very equivalent in my estimation. I live in a state with some of the most expensive gasoline in the country, and that tipped it to the RAV4 Hybrid.

I ended up with a 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid LE. So far I really like the car. But, ask me again in about 24,0000 miles.

FWIW, I bought it through the Costco program.

Terrific! I hope you love it and that it meets your needs. From what I understand it is an excellent choice.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

I ended up with a 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid LE. So far I really like the car.

I really wanted to like the RAV4 Hybrid, but the back seats only folding to about 45 degrees or so unfortunately put it out of the running.