Poll:How much did luck help you FIRE?

[Bestwifeever]

... Character (and circumstance) is destiny.....

I have also heard the saying that energy is destiny, which I interpret as having the perseverance to follow through on ideas, opportunity, etc., and also is a facet of character.

 

[Rambler]

When I was attending a party for my first boss out of college on the occasion of his 70th birthday, I noted that I owed him a lot, because he took a huge chance in hiring me 25 years prior (as an American in Japan, with a basic knowledge of The Japanese language, but no understanding of business Japanese at all). I noted that I had been very lucky in my career. He flipped that around and told me that I had made my own luck, and that even though opportunities had come my way, I had prepared myself to take advantage of them.

Looking at some of the previous posts, I note and agree that yes, I did have the luck to be born in a LBYM family, to be taught to save, to work hard, I did have the luck to be born in a wealthy democracy, to be educated, etc. However, I note that there are many people who have been dealt that very same hand, but who have not for whatever reason been able to turn that into something positive.

So my take on it is that yes, I was blessed with a certain amount of luck over the years. I think it would be fair to say that I have taken that luck and turned it into even greater opportunities to take advantage of the next sets of "luck" that came around.

I guess that's my story, and I'll stick with it.

R

 

[Westernskies]

So, do you feel that the joy of hoarding yet another unneeded penny to the stash exceeds the joy of sharing the penny with someone who truly has needs?

Read on:

(I'm not referring to those who are physically or mentally disabled, I truly believe they need and deserve our help; but these folks aren't part of the social engineering iceberg, IMO.)

 

[Khan]

Lots of luck.
Born white in USA; public school; state college; state scholarship; federal loan.

 

[ERD50]

It is self-satisfying to associate individual choice and personal responsibility with positive outcomes.

Damn straight it is satisfying! Why the heck would anyone bother with making tough choices and taking personal responsibility if there wasn't some satisfaction in it? I'm not a martyr, I do things (in some sort of balance) for the eventual reward. If other people make 'live for today and the heck with tomorrow' choices and shirk personal responsibility, then why should their future well being be my concern? It wasn't their concern, and they didn't share with me when they were playing and I was off working. Now they want me to help after I worked? Hey, they had their fun, it's my turn now. Heck, maybe they made the right choice and I'm the dummy, but I'm not asking for a 'do-over'.

There is no doubt that these things are related but it does disregard all those who work hard and choose well but still have less beneficial outcomes.

I disagree completely - it isn't either/or. Why can't I say that some of my success is due to working hard and being prepared and having the guts to take advantage of opportunities, while still acknowledging that some people might work harder than me, be smarter, and still get hit with some bad luck that sets them back? I've seen it, and I acknowledge it. What's your point?

... relieves the social and moral obligation to contribute and help the less fortunate.

What the heck are you talking about? Are you saying that successful people don't donate to charities, volunteer, etc? Look around. Open your eyes.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Not many are expressing thanks for their nature. I think that this board is filled with lots of people who by nature are smart and highly disciplined. Lucky folks all! Character (and circumstance) is destiny. I can't answer the poll because the choices don't fit with how I think how I and other people end up where they are.

It would be interesting to start a thread on this subject. You have mentioned it from time to time, and it is clear that it is the center of why we see things from a different angle. I understand what you say to a point (I think), but you seem to state it in such extreme terms that it seems to totally negate any personal responsibility for anything. It's as if we shouldn't reward anyone for doing anything exceptional, and we shouldn't punish anyone for doing anything reprehensible - it was just their destiny.

Jonas Salk and Bernie Madoff were both just following their destiny? There is no room for personal choice in any of this? We should just shrug if we were to meet each of them, and say "whatever"?

Sure, we all have some innate abilities and some innate challenges. But we can let those rule us or we can try to overcome them. You don't believe that?

-ERD50

 

[MichaelB]

Our lives, what we achieve and not, are governed by factors we control and circumstance we do not. To portray the positive outcome as the consequence only of factors we control is false because it disregards both circumstance and the effect others have on us, our choices and their outcomes.

The simple fact that our labor is highly valued and we are able to enjoy the fruits of this labor depends substantially on contributions made by others past and present. To deny this is to deny the value of our social structure, which is the great enabler in our individual lives.

Do not misrepresent my thoughts. I clearly acknowledge the importance of individual effort and choice (beginning with my own), even though I do not know how to weigh their contribution. Those that believe their individual effort and choice are all that matters should go live alone in a jungle, or on a desert island, for a couple of years and see just how much individual effort matters. It may keep you alive where others might not survive, but prosperity is the result of the collective effort and continued investment of many across multiple generations. It is incumbent on us to enable others in like fashion.

 

[Westernskies]

It is incumbent on us to enable others in like fashion.

So, where are you sending your enablement checks?

 

[ERD50]

Bold mine:

Our lives, what we achieve and not, are governed by factors we control and circumstance we do not. To portray the positive outcome as the consequence only of factors we control is false because it disregards both circumstance and the effect others have on us, our choices and their outcomes.

The simple fact that our labor is highly valued and we are able to enjoy the fruits of this labor depends substantially on contributions made by others past and present. To deny this is to deny the value of our social structure, which is the great enabler in our individual lives.

Do not misrepresent my thoughts. I clearly acknowledge the importance of individual effort and choice (beginning with my own), even though I do not know how to weigh their contribution. Those that believe their individual effort and choice are all that matters should go live alone in a jungle, or on a desert island, for a couple of years and see just how much individual effort matters. It may keep you alive where others might not survive, but prosperity is the result of the collective effort and continued investment of many across multiple generations. It is incumbent on us to enable others in like fashion.

The phrases I bolded are what confuses me. Seems like only a very small minority are saying luck wasn't an issue (or maybe it is their phrasing) - are you addressing those few (2 or 3?)?

Even the poll itself, at one extreme, acknowledges that luck plays a part:

You make your own luck. (I got lucky, but it was only useful because I had already spent years accumulating knowledge and assets that let me take advantage of it.)

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

What I admire about the folks who minimize the role of luck or fortune in their lives is that they accept personal responsibility for outcomes even when those outcomes are negative and seem to be events that were not in their control. No whining. Just acceptance of unplanned negative events as their own personal responsibility.

 

[Westernskies]

What I admire about the folks who minimize the role of luck or fortune in their lives is that they accept personal responsibility for outcomes even when those outcomes are negative and seem to be events that were not in their control. No whining. Just acceptance of unplanned for negative events as their own personal responsibility.

+1

When life deals you a lemon, make lemonade.

 

[haha]

Not near as much as keeping my eyes open, my feet on the ground, and my mind in gear.

Ha

 

[youbet]

+1

When life deals you a lemon, make lemonade.

Yep, even on those worst of days, like when you find out the wife has breast cancer, a child is born with a serious birth defect, your teenage daughter is raped or your doc tells you that a heriditary condition will kill you by your 50th b'day, you just suck it up and know you make your own luck.

Emmmmmm..... tasty lemonade........ Delicious with a little vodka!

 

[Westernskies]

Emmmmmm..... tasty lemonade........ Delicious with a little vodka!

Whatever gets you through the rough spots, I guess...

As for the events you mentioned, they are tough breaks but have nothing to do with creating your own luck; making lemonade would be using them as catalyst opportunities for personal growth through fundraising, victims advocacy, or volunteer work on behalf of the mentioned causes.

 

[youbet]

As for the events you mentioned, they are tough breaks but have nothing to do with creating your own luck;

I think you're missing the point. It isn't a matter that you make your own "good luck" but that "bad luck" is something else such as "tough breaks." When you make your own luck, you make it all..... good and bad. There are no tough breaks.

making lemonade would be using them as catalyst opportunities for personal growth through fundraising, victims advocacy, or volunteer work on behalf of the mentioned causes.

Yes, excellent responses when some of the luck you created might require some redirection. Based on your other posts, I'm a bit surprised to hear you suggest fund raising, advocacy and volunteer work. Would you do some sort of grasshopper vs. ant test to ensure that no grasshoppers got a penny?

If you can't accept bad luck in the same way you accept the good fortune of being born bright, being born the right race and to good parents, being at the right place at the right time in your career, etc., then you would be a "I make my own luck" hypocrit. I think you're not.

I understand that OP intended the discussion to revolve around good luck: the events and circumstances that allowed folks like us to be financially independent and, on this forum, retired early. And I do admire folks who espouse to "make their own luck." I'm only partially bought in on that concept and personally believe in more of a combination of personal determination, luck/fate and random circumstances.

But when the "I make my own luck" crowd handles extreme bad luck with that same attitude without a hint of that "why me?" attitude, it is impressive.

 

[jacob]

Extreme LBYM and short period of accumulation so not dependent on returns. My choice of career (research scientist) was a blessing and a curse: On one hand the pay was pathetic compared to the hours, on the other hand, the hours and the fascination with the work and the constant moving around meant that I never developed an affinity for bling-bling nor did I get caught in the loan-traps of cars and homes. I basically kept living like a [increasingly enlightened] student.

 

[chris2008]

I recall to have read some piece of research, probably in behavioral economics, that people tend to attribute all positive results to their own abilities whareas they blame bad luck for all negative outcome.

Would the results from those of us who see no chance to ER be different from those who are certain to achieve ER or have already achieved it?

 

[MichaelB]

The phrases I bolded are what confuses me. Seems like only a very small minority are saying luck wasn't an issue (or maybe it is their phrasing) - are you addressing those few (2 or 3?)?

Well, I see one third saying luck plays no part and another third saying you make your own luck. To me that is more than half saying luck has limited or no effect.

The wording, though, and the whole concept of “luck” may lead us to disagree on meaning. I would agree with youbet when he wrote

I understand that OP intended the discussion to revolve around good luck: the events and circumstances that allowed folks like us to be financially independent and, on this forum, retired early. And I do admire folks who espouse to "make their own luck." I'm only partially bought in on that concept and personally believe in more of a combination of personal determination, luck/fate and random circumstances.

The thread is not whether we can stoically accept misfortune or accept the good and the bad equally. It is about whether our becoming financially independent and retiring early was the result of our personal effort, external circumstance, or both.

Compared with co-workers and other people we knew (even family), DW and I saved a great deal more, worked longer hours, made intelligent choices and persevered when faced with adversity. Relative to them our prosperity later in life has very much been the result of choice and effort.

Nonetheless I cannot understate the importance of external factors. My views on this may be unduly influenced by having worked in a different country most of my adult life where so many people have far fewer opportunities, cannot enjoy the benefits of the choices they make or are affected negatively by actions of others.

In the US a social, legal and economic structure has been created that enables opportunity and allows people to benefit from the choices they make. My generation (baby boomer) has also enjoyed three unique generational golden moments: accessible and affordable higher education, well-rewarded labor, and a dramatic expansion in capital markets. Never before, and perhaps never again.

Hard work, personal sacrifice and dedication are common characteristics of achievement. So is good fortune.

 

[unclemick]

Lucky - in hindsight. Layed off at age 49. Ticked me off so much I haven't worked a full time job since.

My projected 'early retirement' had been age 63 for which I was saving/investing.

heh heh heh - have I mentioned I used to be a 'really really cheap SOB' ? Her words not mine.

 

[rescueme]

It had to be 100% luck.

I've had folks tell me for decades that I was not that smart, from the Penguin's (sorry - Nun's) in my early years to my various employers later on.

Dosen't matter. Whatever the reason, I retired before "traditional age" and doing quite well (thank you very much) ...

 

[MichaelB]

A tribute to all those participating in this thread.

YouTube - Creedence Clearwater Revival: Fortunate Son

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50
The phrases I bolded are what confuses me. Seems like only a very small minority are saying luck wasn't an issue (or maybe it is their phrasing) - are you addressing those few (2 or 3?)?

Well, I see one third saying luck plays no part and another third saying you make your own luck. To me that is more than half saying luck has limited or no effect.

OK, I was basing it on the comments in the thread (that's where I got the 2 or 3), not the poll.

Nonetheless I cannot understate the importance of external factors. My views on this may be unduly influenced by having worked in a different country most of my adult life where so many people have far fewer opportunities, cannot enjoy the benefits of the choices they make or are affected negatively by actions of others.

....

Hard work, personal sacrifice and dedication are common characteristics of achievement. So is good fortune.

Agreed. It is a combo. And bad fortune can sometimes be overcome by hard work (and sometimes not), and sometimes laziness can be overcome by winning the lottery.

But I still disagree with your post #44.

-ERD50

 

[freebird5825]

No luck involved at all.
Half the reason I could FIRE was my own life habit of savings. The other half of the reason was a survivor pension with health benefits. The combination of the two allowed me to FIRE 1 year 10 months years earlier than the early out I was planning to apply for at age 50.
I turned a case of lemons into lemonade. And came out as a much stronger person at the end of the journey.

 

[Westernskies]

No luck involved at all.
Half the reason I could FIRE was my own life habit of savings. The other half of the reason was a survivor pension with health benefits. The combination of the two allowed me to FIRE 1 year 10 months years earlier than the early out I was planning to apply for at age 50.
I turned a case of lemons into lemonade. And came out as a much stronger person at the end of the journey.

Now, freebird, c'mon... You were LUCKY to have been born with the saver gene, and LUCKY to get that survivor pension, and LUCKY that you didn't choose to mix vodka and sugar with that case of lemons and end up a penniless alcoholic with rotten teeth. So, LUCK had everything to do with you being able to retire early. Others were not so lucky, and you need to share your largesse with them; the IRS will be contacting you for a means testing interview next week.

 

[Blackwoodt]

Luck is always a factor, I'm lucky that I read my horoscope right before heading out the door one morning when I was in my early 20's. My horoscope told me to be wary of traffic lights. The first light I came to had an obstructed view of the oncoming traffic, so I waited just a few extra seconds. A cement truck came roaring through the red light, any other day I would have already been out in the intersection, and surely killed.

I'm lucky that my parents (while paying for my siblings) could not afford to send me the middle child to college, and that I had to pay for my own. I started working at the age of 15, which I believe gave me an early appreciation of money that my siblings will never have.

I'm lucky that I chose the right company to work for, and have stayed with for 25+ years in part because of the tremendous benefits. They offer a Cadillac health insurance plan at very low cost to the employees, a 401K match, ESOP, dividends, excellent wages, pension, along with early retirement at the age of 55 with basically the same health insurance.

I'm lucky that I've made enough over the years to buy my mother a house, and support her when my siblings could not.

I'm lucky that I found a wonderful DH.

I voted: Some of both. (I was working at it, but a lucky break pushed me the rest of the way.)

I've had too many lucky breaks to remember, but avoiding the cement truck, and working for a ESOP company sure helped!