Red Wine Recommendation!

[ERD50]

That measure was per Liter, so 3 grams (3/4 tsp) per 750 mL bottle.

So next time I'm enjoying a dry red, I'll pour out 100 mL, and add 0.3 grams sugar, assuming a dry red is ~ 1 g/L, so add 3 to get to 4 (or 99.7 grams wine + 0.3 grams sugar to be precise).

Can I measure 0.3 grams? My gram scale has 0.1 g resolution. I cut a piece of paper ~ 4x6 and it was 1 gram. I cut it in thirds and read 0.3, 0.7, and 1.0 as I added them back. So pretty good. Or measure out 1.2 g and divide in half twice, the way I see those drug dealers do on TV?

It would be interesting if I can taste the difference.

-ERD50

Following up on my earlier post. As it turns out, DW planned a beef roast for tonight's dinner, and we enjoy a dry red wine with that. So I had an opportunity to try my "sugar dosing experiment", and more importantly, I actually did it! I should stress, I'm not all that educated in the world of wine. I like dry reds, or a Savingnon Blanc with salmon (the acidity seems a nice contrast to the fat). Don't drink sweet wines unless offered as a dessert wine. I'm much better in distinguishing qualities in beer (which I also home-brew).

The results were very surprising to me, I'd be curious to hear comments from poster Winemaker. Here's how it went.

I opened a bottle of my home-made wine, from Chilean Cabernet juice, Spring 2018 harvest (more details below if you care). This also had a medium toast oak strip added for 3 months prior to bottling. I ferment these dry, but don't do any residual sugar testing, but I assume they are quite dry.

I pulled 100 mL of this wine to a separate glass (after aerating the whole bottle), and added sugar at the rate of 3 mg/L (more details below if you care), to get closer to the 4 mg/L stated sugar content of the wine in the OP.

Before I compared wines, I added that amount to 100 mL of RO water. I could not detect any sweetness. I doubled the concentration, and then I felt I could detect it, barely. So I thought no way am I going to detect this with the fairly bold flavors of my Chilean Cab.

I almost went straight to the double concentration, but took it in steps. I was shocked. I could immediately taste the difference of the added 3gm/L in my wine. DW could tell it, and was a little miffed at me for "wasting" 100 mL of our wine for dinner. Now, this wasn't sweet like a dessert wine, and I could see how some people might just see that as "boosting" the flavors that are there (the way salt enhances food w/o changing the basic flavor?). But to me, it really did come across as sweeter than I want with a wine to go with roast beef. This is obviously all subjective (but I'm certain I could objectively pick out the sweetened wine in a blind tasting), but that sweetness is just not what I'm looking for. I was so surprised, that I repeated the water test, just to make sure I didn't mix up the dosing somehow. DW had the same feelings on both the dosed water (couldn't detect the sugar) and the dosed wine, but more extreme on the wine.

So my question to Winemaker (or other experienced wine tasters): Does the sugar interact with other components of the wine to make it more noticeable than it was with RO water? That is what both DW and I theorized.

OK, I've gone this far, so I guess I'll add - I don't get the defensive tone of some of the posts in this thread (or were some deleted?). If the OP likes a Bourbon-barrel-aged Cab, then he likes it, whether it costs $3, $10 or $100. It's all good.

I think what turned it a bit is the comparison to other reds. It's just different, if you like it you like it, but it's a bit silly to compare. I like some Bourbon-barrel-aged beers, but I don't compare them to their non-barrel aged cousins. They are just different, I enjoy each for what they are. Is that OK?


Added background info if you care: So for reference, I won't hold up my home made wine as any great shakes, but I have got positive comments from the wine makers in my beer club, and from some wine making club members. When we've tried them side-by-side with our typical $10~$12 bottles of wines, we've sometimes felt my home made was far superior to the commercial wine, and other times felt the commercial was better, more complex. So that's kind of a toss up. The Chilean Cab we enjoyed tonight was bulk aged for a year (with the oak strip added the last 3 months), and bottled about a year ago. It was fermented from juice that our wine club has shipped up from Chile in the Spring, (they bring in California juice in the fall). I didn't add any skins/stems, so however they pressed it is what I got. I add nutrient at the start and about 2/3rd of the way through initial fermentation, to help assure it ferments out dry.

For the dosing - to try to be more accurate, I dissolved a 10x weight of sugar with an equal amount of the sample wine (6 grams each), measured the volume, and dosed adjusting for the volume ratios with a 1 mL syringe, so I'm sure I got this pretty accurate.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

A little late to the thread, but just my perspective: the aging in Bourbon Barrels doesn't give it an exact "bourbon flavor". And as with any other wine (and beer), tasting notes are just that - what your nose senses. For one person to say "it's the vanilla coke of wine" is more than an exaggeration. Sure, you might get a hint of vanilla, but realize that you can only get so much flavor imparted from an oak barrel into liquid by storing it in it (it's not like they are pouring concentrate into it!).

As far as the sweetness/alcohol goes, you might get a tiny bit of it from the barrels, but again, not that much. To say the bourbon barrel aging "completely changes it to a beverage" is not correct, as it only adds a slight nuance to the wine (just as any other barrel will slightly enhance it). ...

My view is quite a but different, based on some first hand experience brewing a beer that was held aside and barrel aged, in addition to tasting a fair number of commercial Barrel Aged beers.

On the commercial side, I've had BA beers that had a very strong vanilla component. One was a 4 pack of 10 oz bottles, recommended to me. After the first, I didn't open one unless there were at least two other people to share it with. I could only take 3~4 ounces, the vanilla was just cloying. That was extreme, but the vanilla and Bourbon can be very up-front in many (most?) of these offerings. The vanilla, and Bourbon if used, is not subtle at all, not to me.

I mentioned the Doppelbock I brewed with our club. Some was held aside, and we all agreed ( with some certified BJCP judges) it was a fantastic Doppelbock, right up there with the best commercial examples. The plan was to barrel age most of it in a 30 Gallon Bourbon Barrel, which we did in November last year. Each month, we'd pull a sample to taste - fantastic! By Feb/March, I was anxious to bottle it, I didn't want the barrel/Bourbon to overpower such a great beer. Other members felt we should go into April to let it warm up and get more Barrel character. Bottom line, we all agree now, that while it is a very impressive BBA beer, it really stood out on its own, and pulling it in Feb would have been better, more subtle to let the base beer shine. It is a bit over the top, and sort of covers up just how good that basic Doppelbock was. They are very different beers.

-ERD50

 

[Winemaker]

Thanks for your experiment, ERD50. As a side note, did you keep any of your records of you Chilean Cab when you made it? Especially the final specific gravity/brix?

Any how, a couple of things come to mind. You say you could not taste sweetness in the RO water? That is good, and I'm glad that you used RO water and not tap water. That eliminates any minerals, or extra material that might be found in water, and their interactions. Could you perceive an aroma in the sugar water? Could you perceive an aroma if you preformed the same with sweet/unsweetened tea or coffee? I digress.

I know that additions of sugar do react with the phenols, thiols, to make it taste fruitier, I guess it's a matter if you can taste it. But of course, after adding the sugar, you had to stir up your mixture, which does make a BIG difference. Remember my posts of long ago on other wine topics, about taking a bottle of wine, and separating different portions. Sample A straight from the bottle, B shaken in a cocktail shaker, C in a blender. All three will taste different to most people. Also, Chilean grapes are considered a cold growing region, so their going to be a little "greener" or acidic, Checking your records you may find your Brix was about 22, and your pH about 3.2-3.3. Reds should be 3.4-3.6. Titratable acid should be 5-6gms/liter. Adding a small amount of sugar to your wine glass, will affect a lower pH wine, just as adding sugar to lemonade.

Also, your choice of bucket juice does make a difference also. Grapes, regardless of color or variety, get their flavor from the skins, because that's where the "nummies" are. If a winemaker uses whole crushed red grapes, he may coldsoak them a few days, and ferment with the skins, maximizing flavor and color. When using juice buckets, the juice is hot pressed, as to extract the "nummies" quicker but not thoroughly. I use bucket juice for some whites, as they are a little more delicate, and I can really screw up some white grapes if conditions are not perfect. That being said though, you would get maybe a BIGGER impact on wine from grapes instead of wine from juice, because there's more "nummies". It also the reason a $10 wine may or may not taste like a $30 bottle of wine. A farmer may sell his grapes to a wholesaler, who may not have an immediate sale, so they may have to hotpress it, store it, or transport it before it spoils, to a winery that doesn't grow its own grapes. I can look online in my newsletters, and buy bulk juice right now, and I know there's no one in the USA that's harvesting grapes right now.

So yes, the sugar does react with the components in the wine more ways than one.

Also, may I suggest a Pinot Noir with your salmon, regardless of how you prepare it? DW and I love Sauv Blanc, but enjoy PN more with salmon, you will not be disappointed!

 

[zinger1457]

Better stock up on the European wines if that is your preference, looks like tarriffs are being considered.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-t...e-in-the-face-of-proposed-tariffs-11578513621

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Rodney Strong Cab. and Merlot were on sale for $10.99 each this week at ABC Liquors in Florida, we purchased a case of each.

 

[Bir48die]

I like dry red wines mostly from WA, OR, South America, and France.

I do not like wine snobs.

I think (just me -not you) that expensive wines are for impressing others. Spending more than $30/bottle is ludicrous. That's just me. YMMV.

Ok. That's your opinion. Good for you.

Now a comment from someone who spends some money on wines. I drink most at home and no one knows what I drink so not sure who I'm supposed to impress. I live in the heart of some of the greatest Pinot Noir vineyards in the world. They are not cheap. I'm sorry but I cannot drink Erath or La Crema Pinot. I'm glad it's inexpensive. I guess I'm just a moron for spending the money for decent wine.

That being said I'm always looking for everyday drinking wine. I have access to a lot of Washington wine. So I appreciate some of these suggestions. Some of the reds can be fruit bombs so I'm looking for the right combo. Also appreciated the Costco link because I like Italian wines and looking to save money on those. Being on the West Coast we don't have the advantage that the East Coast has in shipping savings. Otherwise I'd drink more wine from Italy.

So, as I see it everyone has their thing that they don't scrimp on. Mine is wine. Maybe you scrimp on everything. That's okay. It's just not me.

 

[Midpack]

Ok. That's your opinion. Good for you.

Now a comment from someone who spends some money on wines. I drink most at home and no one knows what I drink so not sure who I'm supposed to impress. I live in the heart of some of the greatest Pinot Noir vineyards in the world. They are not cheap. I'm sorry but I cannot drink Erath or La Crema Pinot. I'm glad it's inexpensive. I guess I'm just a moron for spending the money for decent wine.

That being said I'm always looking for everyday drinking wine. I have access to a lot of Washington wine. So I appreciate some of these suggestions. Some of the reds can be fruit bombs so I'm looking for the right combo. Also appreciated the Costco link because I like Italian wines and looking to save money on those. Being on the West Coast we don't have the advantage that the East Coast has in shipping savings. Otherwise I'd drink more wine from Italy.

So, as I see it everyone has their thing that they don't scrimp on. Mine is wine. Maybe you scrimp on everything. That's okay. It's just not me.

This is a thread about a $10/bottle red wine.

It's not about what anyone should/could spend on wine. Of course we have different tastes/budgets. You'll note wine snobs quickly turned it into something else on the first page, criticizing the taste of others, and persisting thereafter...

Why not start another thread for those who enjoy more costly wines?

 

[USGrant1962]

This is a thread about a $10/bottle red wine.

It's not about what anyone should/could spend on wine. Of course we have different tastes/budgets. You'll note wine snobs quickly turned it into something else on the first page, criticizing the taste of others, and persisting thereafter...

Why not start another thread for those who enjoy more costly wines?

+1

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

Being on the West Coast we don't have the advantage that the East Coast has in shipping savings. Otherwise I'd drink more wine from Italy.

When we lived in Europe, wine costs were about a third of what I see here in the USA. For the same exact brand and vintage. It didn't matter where the wine came from, Europe, the US, Chile, etc. A bottle from California that cost 25 dollars in the US would cost about 7 or 8 Euros in Germany.

 

[audreyh1]

When we lived in Europe, wine costs were about a third of what I see here in the USA. For the same exact brand and vintage. It didn't matter where the wine came from, Europe, the US, Chile, etc. A bottle from California that cost 25 dollars in the US would cost about 7 or 8 Euros in Germany.

How long ago was that? because honestly these days I don’t see the wines being that much cheaper in Europe.

 

[Audie Murphy]

I have been in the wine distribution business for over 23 years. I usually buy my own company’s brands unless I find wines that have been severely discounted for close out. DW and I have shared thousands of wines over the years. I usually avoid plonk wines unless it is an white wine like a Pinot Grigio. Italian PG is our preferred white. Although, love Vinho Verde, Viognier, Sauvignon Blanc, Riesling etc. Not really a Chardonnay fan unless it is unoaked.

With reds we love most everything excluding sweet or slightly sweet profiles. We tend not to like Chilean wines (or South African). They have strange latex and/or burnt rubber qualities that often come through but there have been a few nice ones. Love Washington state red wines, Oregon Pinot Noirs, Paso Robles (just scored some Estancia Meritage last week for ~$16...awesome and balanced blend.) J. Lohr is another fantastic winery. There is a lot of good every day wine around $10 out there. Also, there is some expensive and over priced garbage. It has surprised me many times when I score a $30-$50 bottle for under $15 in an inventory reduction sale only to be disappointed (have been spoiled also). Price will fool you because often it is a statement of limited availability and not necessarily better quality. I agree with the Rodney Strong recommendation above, good stuff and that was a great price above. I would suggest that you will usually find good quality wines from wineries that are long established and estate grown/ bottled. I have been through the mass production “wineries” and have had many over the years and what they are doing is more like chemistry than wine making. They come from a factory with a generic label and taste like nowhere. Mega purple is in a lot of wines these days. If your glass from last night looks like you drank an $80 Argentine Malbec but instead you shared a $10 red blend from California, it is probably Mega Purple. I am not saying they are bad but as you develop more knowledge and appreciation for wine you will want to experience the beauty of terroir. Grapes are in many varieties and what grows where is where the magic of wine goes to a different level other than that of mass appeal. There is nothing wrong with any or all wines, because they all serve purpose and fill a need. Wine makes food taste better and food makes wine taste better. If you dislike one that you opened last night, put the cork back in and try it again in a night or two. You may be pleasantly surprised. Just because it is cheap or inexpensive doesn’t mean it is not good. All that matters is do you like it and does it suit your budget? I used to buy a red blend by the case years ago (early 2000's). It was Columbia Crest Two Vines red blend. At around $5-$6/bottle that stuff really over delivered. I am guessing they finally realized that juice was being under priced and probably got moved to the Grand Estates label instead. All the big import wine regions have great wines. There is a seemingly limitless world of wines available and the more I learn the more I become aware of how little I know. Cheers!

 

[Winemaker]

^^^ +10

 

[HawkeyeNFO]

How long ago was that? because honestly these days I don’t see the wines being that much cheaper in Europe.

We moved back to the States in 2017. I imagine each country might have their own taxes and imposed fees, so prices in Norway or Irleand might be higher. However, I can tell you for certain that German prices were about a third of US prices, for the same exact bottle.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks for your experiment, ERD50. As a side note, did you keep any of your records of you Chilean Cab when you made it? Especially the final specific gravity/brix? ...

I know that additions of sugar do react with the phenols, thiols, to make it taste fruitier, I guess it's a matter if you can taste it. ...

So yes, the sugar does react with the components in the wine more ways than one.
...

Thanks for the detailed reply, lots of very interesting info there, and I will do more experimenting.

I'll start a new thread later today, this is getting pretty far afield from the OP comments on a specific red.

-ERD50

 

[CardsFan]

I’ve never done this and probably won’t again, but we stumbled on $10/bottle Cabernet that we like better than some $100/bottle wines we’ve had. It’s easily the best $10/bottle of wine we’ve EVER had. I bought a case, and may buy another. What we bought is the 2017 vintage at $9.97/bottle, we got 10% off buying a case. Superb to our tastes. Sorry for the tangent, but too good to not share.

For you non drinkers, apologies. This thread isn’t meant for you.

https://www.robertmondaviprivateselection.com/california-wine/bourbon-aged-cabernet-sauvignon/

Picked up a bottle this morning at the local grocery store (2018 vintage). Regular price was $17.99, on sale for 13.99. Will give it a try in the next few days.

FWIW, I checked on-line and there is a wine store about 15 miles away that has it for the same price you paid. So, if we like it, I'll make the trip for a case.

 

[Bir48die]

This is a thread about a $10/bottle red wine.

It's not about what anyone should/could spend on wine. Of course we have different tastes/budgets. You'll note wine snobs quickly turned it into something else on the first page, criticizing the taste of others, and persisting thereafter...

Why not start another thread for those who enjoy more costly wines?

Ok. I’m interested in the discussion. Not interested in people telling me I’m trying to impress or call it ludicrous. Just sayin.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks for the detailed reply, lots of very interesting info there, and I will do more experimenting.

I'll start a new thread later today, this is getting pretty far afield from the OP comments on a specific red.

-ERD50

For anyone interested, the new thread is up:

http://www.early-retirement.org/for...gar-content-follow-up-101704.html#post2354765

-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

We moved back to the States in 2017. I imagine each country might have their own taxes and imposed fees, so prices in Norway or Irleand might be higher. However, I can tell you for certain that German prices were about a third of US prices, for the same exact bottle.

My very recent experience with Bordeaux was that a particular grand cru could be ordered in the US for not much higher than what we paid at the winery in France.

 

[Winemaker]

Here is great deal from a great winery. All of their wines are excellent, but this deal is 6 bottles of wine,( 2 reds, 4 whites) but it's their choice, for $77.77. If you purchase 6 more bottles, the shipping is 1 cent anywhere in US. Can't be beat.

https://www.navarrowine.com/shop/2020-fukubukuro

 

[troutnut1]

I saved 100% for the past 21 years

When I lived in the big city many years ago we had a “wine consultant” that would come to the house and demonstrate all the wonderful ways that rotting grapes can bottled. Through a series of bad moves and misunderstandings I ended up nearly broke with cases of fabulous wines, and eating Top Ramen noodles when I could get them at 10/$1. I know a bargain when I see it!

Eventually, the truth came out. I didn’t really care what I was drinking as long as it had a good buzz in it. On 11/21/1998 I finally discovered that I shouldn’t be drinking at all. So for the last 21+ years I have saved 100% on all wine, beer, and hard liquor. Saved enough to easily enter the retirement club in style.

I never did find the perfect $10 bottle. Eventually I became more interested in the alcohol % than the year. But all of them did their job. And the best of my bottles paired perfectly with Top Ramen Noodles. And if one eats enough of them they can afford a lot more $10 bottles. Sure glad I don’t have to do that anymore.

 

[meleana]

Robert Mondavi's wines are very good. That said I hate red wine. Drinking it right now as we received a lot of bottles for XMAS gifts.

 

[NW-Bound]

When we lived in Europe, wine costs were about a third of what I see here in the USA. For the same exact brand and vintage. It didn't matter where the wine came from, Europe, the US, Chile, etc. A bottle from California that cost 25 dollars in the US would cost about 7 or 8 Euros in Germany.

In grocery stores, I saw so many bottles in the range you talk about with labels claiming all kinds of awards. They were all from small regional vintners, which were consumed locally and not mass produced for export. I just grabbed some at random, and have not been disappointed.

How long ago was that? because honestly these days I don’t see the wines being that much cheaper in Europe.

Perhaps you shopped in fancy wine stores and not at grocers as I did.

 

[audreyh1]

In grocery stores, I saw so many bottles in the range you talk about with labels claiming all kinds of awards. They were all from small regional vintners, which were consumed locally and not mass produced for export. I just grabbed some at random, and have not been disappointed.



Perhaps you shopped in fancy wine stores and not at grocers as I did.

I was at a famous chateau winery, and then I looked at the prices for ordering the same wine in the US. After the exchange rate it was almost the same price - very low markup.

We visit a lot of wineries in Europe.

 

[klscaz]

We like Rodney Strong Cabernet or Merlot, we pay on average $12.95 for a bottle and always buy it on sale or in bulk.

We love Rodney Strong wines. We visited the winery in Sonoma and it was our favorite stop. They gave us lots of interesting information about the area and extra pours during the tasting! J Lohr and Michael David are other favorites too.

 

[Murph]

Ive tried many wines, expensive and not. Never drank an expensive wine that was worth the price.