Regular Furnace Servicing?

[brucethebroker]

I think the biggest secret is finding a good furnace/AC service person BEFORE you need him/her.

We have moved numerous times, and always ask neighbors/new friends for a recommendation. I want the pro that can fix a furnace with baling wire and duct-tape if needed. (I have run into 3-4 techs that only want to sell a new furnace, not fix the problem).

We have annual service to clean and check-about $75. We have used the same tech for 7-8 years. He is very honest and will fix it if he possibly can without pushing a new unit. We are comfortable with and trust the tech, which is hard to do when there is no prior relationship, the furnace/AC goes out and you shop around for service under time pressure.

Just one man's opinion.

 

[GravitySucks]

Had nephews buddy who owns the village plumbing and heating company come out. He confirmed it was the controller as I thought and that I could have done it myself. The $100 labor was worth the insurance as the local supply house said the part is not returnable. So paid $350 vs $250 to make sure it was the real problem.

This is not a high efficiency unit. DVD and DSis had those. The repair costs out weighed any gas savings even in this colder climate.

As for yearly maintenance the tech said he vacuums out the area the controller are in, replaced the filter, and watches the unit run through a cycle. Takes me 10 minutes to do the same.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

This is a neat tip. Would a digital ohmmeter catch the spike?

I would assume so, but I don't really know since I've never tried it. All we had at the time were analog ones.

I just did this a while back.
After shorting the HERM (compressor) and Fan to the C (common) terminal, take a reading across C and either HERM or Fan. The reading should slowly rise to near max on the chosen scale (200k in my case) and drop back to one (starting point on my meter). No need to switch leads.

Also there are meters that read in microfarads - same procedure, check the result against the rating on the capacitor.

 

[gauss]

Had nephews buddy who owns the village plumbing and heating company come out. He confirmed it was the controller as I thought and that I could have done it myself. The $100 labor was worth the insurance as the local supply house said the part is not returnable. So paid $350 vs $250 to make sure it was the real problem.

This is not a high efficiency unit. DVD and DSis had those. The repair costs out weighed any gas savings even in this colder climate.

As for yearly maintenance the tech said he vacuums out the area the controller are in, replaced the filter, and watches the unit run through a cycle. Takes me 10 minutes to do the same.

You might want to checkout www.repairclinic.com for next time. All their stuff is returnable for 1 year.

-gauss

 

[TromboneAl]

After hours of attempted repairs, the furnace guy told me it's unfixable and said the magic words "We think you're getting CO mixed with the air."

I'll be getting a second opinion and some more estimates.

 

[ERD50]

After hours of attempted repairs, the furnace guy told me it's unfixable and said the magic words "We think you're getting CO mixed with the air."

I'll be getting a second opinion and some more estimates.

What symptoms were you trying to repair?

"We think you're getting CO mixed with the air." sounds odd to me. What makes him think that? Did he measure it (he would know then)? AFAIK, a cracked heat exchanger will typically force air into the combustion chamber. You air handler is pushing air in to the area, it's under pressure - the only way for CO to get into the air is if maybe there was some venturi effect with the air flowing around the crack. Unlikely I think.

Typically the way a cracked heat exchanger shows up is when the air handler fan comes on, the flames will change as air is pushed in. In extreme cases the flame can be pushed out to dangerous levels, and there is an over-temperature switch that should shut down the gas if that happens. But you don't want to depend on that. In lesser cases, you might get some CO leaking into the area around the furnace - again, not good, But it should be diagnosed, not "I think". And it usually doesn't keep the furnace from running (unless that O-T switch was tripped).

-ERD50

 

[TromboneAl]

What symptoms were you trying to repair?

"We think you're getting CO mixed with the air." sounds odd to me. What makes him think that? Did he measure it (he would know then)? AFAIK, a cracked heat exchanger will typically force air into the combustion chamber. You air handler is pushing air in to the area, it's under pressure - the only way for CO to get into the air is if maybe there was some venturi effect with the air flowing around the crack. Unlikely I think.

-ERD50

I agree. The guy was a little "goofy" and had to call in for advice. The claim of CO was related to some difference in pressures (??).

The initial problem was that there the burners sometimes didn't light unless I pushed something, as seen in this video:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/r9D6j9SPkHEMnrRQ9

He replaced a part, but there was still a lot of yellow flame, which apparently shouldn't be there. He cleaned things out (a servicing) and felt that that made things worse.

$541 for the service and part replacement, which I won't have to pay if that company puts in a new furnace. Second opinions coming.

 

[travelover]

Seems like the pilot is not burning properly (yellow flame) and so not triggering sensor that allows burners to light. A yellow flame produces CO, which may be what tech was talking about. Question is why pilot is yellow - normally a dirty jet / air intake. It seems like tech was not competent to fix dirty jet / intake problem.


https://www.jerrykelly.com/blog/why-is-my-pilot-light-flame-yellow-instead-of-blue

 

[ERD50]

That flame looks bigger than just a pilot. Looks like the gas has come on, pilot/igniter has lit some of the gas, but it just has not spread to the burners.

"flame spreader" --

But none of those parts are major, and it probably just needs an adjustment, or somethings blocked, or interfering with the spreading of the flame. No reason for a new furnace, unless there are other issues.

I'd complain to the company - $541 and they didn't fix it, and gave you vague "need a new furnace" mumbo-jumbo. They should be able to tell you exactly what is wrong, and why.

-ERD50

 

[travelover]

That flame looks bigger than just a pilot. Looks like the gas has come on, pilot/igniter has lit some of the gas, but it just has not spread to the burners.

"flame spreader" --



But none of those parts are major, and it probably just needs an adjustment, or somethings blocked, or interfering with the spreading of the flame. No reason for a new furnace, unless there are other issues.

I'd complain to the company - $541 and they didn't fix it, and gave you vague "need a new furnace" mumbo-jumbo. They should be able to tell you exactly what is wrong, and why.

-ERD50

Yea, this makes sense - upshot, I think Al needs a more qualified tech, not a new furnace.

 

[samclem]

Al,
I second Alan's previous recommendation to get a CO detector. Every home with combustion appliances should have one or more, and they are cheap insurance.
As your tech bumbles along, this is more important.

 

[travelover]

Al,
I second Alan's previous recommendation to get a CO detector. Every home with combustion appliances should have one or more, and they are cheap insurance.
As your tech bumbles along, this is more important.

I agree. Costco usually has a good deal on them - I have one with a ten year battery at which point they should be replaced anyway.

 

[Bamaman]

Have my HVAC (all electric) serviced and checked annually for about $75, cheap insurance in my way of thinking.

I still have a hard time paying a HVAC company for what often amounts to be their sales call.

I have a close friend that has been in the HVAC business his entire life, and he has been very successful. In the past 10 years, he has actually been an employee of the HVAC manufacturer that bought his business. In major cities, there are very few large heating and cooling companies that are independently owned. And that's why these guys push only one brand of equipment.

 

[travelover]

Thinking about this more this AM, I'd get in there with a vacuum cleaner and maybe some compressed air. As ER50 noted, it appears that the center burner air inlet is partially blocked causing the yellow flame and there is rust / dust in the flame spreaders preventing the other burners from lighting.


There are a number of decent YouTube videos on furnace burner cleaning - here is one that seems relevant.

 

[stephenson]

Service contracts ... I never have had because they do so very little. I used a vacuum and compressed air to keep the gas burners clean when I had a furnace. Component failures don’t occur just prior to the service call.

On one high efficiency furnace we had for 20 years, the gas burners and the flame crossover became so clogged with rust that while the light off sequence occurred, it would shut down because the flame sensor is on n the opposite side from the gas inlet - if it didn’t detect the flame, it shutoff the gas valve. Took an hour to pull the assembly, and another 30 minutes to clean out the orifices and clean everything ... out back in and worked great. The only really complicated thing is the control board.

 

[travelover]

Al, did you ever figure out the problem?

 

[TromboneAl]

Al, did you ever figure out the problem?

Here's the story:

1. After much work, company 1 says, "Can't fix it. You need a new furnace for $7,000, but you'll get credit for the $541 for our attempts to fix it.

2. I get an estimate from Company 2. Guy comes it, looks inside with colonoscopy thingie, says, "You could fix it for $1,000, but it wouldn't be a good idea. New furnace: $3,400 (Ruud)."

3. I call Company 1. Tell them that they were charging me $541 for their incompetence (there's more to it: $92 to check, then $250 and it will be fixed, then, surprise, $541). I may have implied that I would leave reviews. They cancelled all charges, but I paid them the $92 minimum that it would have cost to get an estimate.

4. Company 2 put the new, 98% efficient condensing furnace in, and after a few hiccups that the company fixed promptly, it's been working fine. That company was the good, old-fashioned, Mom & Pop, conscientious type.

It's hard to measure propane usage, but I'm expecting that I will be saving money in the long run.

 

[travelover]

Awesome. Sounds like Company 1 is crooked - first on the repair, then on the new furnace quote.

 

[samclem]

Al,
Great news, glad he story ended well.
There are a lot of stories on this board about wildly divergent HVAC quotes, about less than competent HVAC techs, and about some practices that appear at least abusive and possibly fraudulent. The industry seems ripe for a clean-up, and I'm sure nobody will welcome that more than the HVAC businesses who are out there operating with integrity every day.