Self-Driving Cars -- Needs of the Many vs Numero Uno

[HFWR]

Many humans have already perfected the art of artificial intelligence...

 

[aja8888]

The future:

Year 2150:

News Flash on Facebook V23: Self Driving Cars (SDC's) are having trouble avoiding the Amazon drones that are clogging the streets looking for residences for deliveries of food rations these days. There have been just too many accidents and the insurance companies are raising rates (again)."

(Government Directive after reviewing statistics (three years later))


To All Owners of SDC's: "Starting in 2155, all SDC's will now be equipped with human control at all times for the purpose of maintaining crash avoidance. Any SDC found without human control will be permanently disabled and the responsible human owner fined 10 days food rations"

 

[BLS53]

We purchased an Acura MDX, about a month ago.This car has Lane Keeping Assist (LKA) and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC). Now that we have driven it for about four weeks, some observations.

I love the two systems on the highway! I wondered how it determined my hands were on the wheel. I think I figured out it looks for minute steering pressure on the wheel. I can hold on with my thumb and fore finger and as the wheel moves, a very slight resistance to the turn will signal to the computer you are steering. If you take your had off the wheel, no resistance and it will give you a warning in about 46 secs.

This is not a system you can kick back and read a newspaper. You can however, look around more. Take your hand off the wheel and get something out of your pocket or glove box. On a divided highway feels ok. On the back road two lane, not so much.

The ACC is really nice. Set it for the speed limit and if the car in front is going slower, it does not run up on it. With regular cruise control, you have to kick it off and the urge to pass a slower car sets in. Often we will hold behind a car going a couple miles under the speed limit for awhile before we notice. It is a more relaxed way to drive.

I think you do loose a little 'situational awareness' as we say in the flying game. Because you are not quite as concerned with staying in your lane, and you monitor the system to make sure it is still on, I don't seem to pay as much attention what is beside or behind. This has nothing to do with the assisted driving, but the Acura looses cars in the rear view mirror when the nose of the car reaches your back bumper. The side mirrors will pick it up, and will show it until is equal with driver side/passenger side window. It take a little getting use to if you don't have a habit of monitoring the side mirrors. The Acura comes with a system that monitors cars around you, but our model does not have it. Next one will.

ACC: This works well on the open road with cars in front. No problem with normal traffic cutting in front going faster or about the same speed. However, it is not so good if the guy in front slows suddenly. It will slow also, but it is more aggressive than it needs to be. It does get your attention. Once more, if you are paying attention, you can usually anticipate this and kick the ACC off.

No intention of hijacking the thread. Just some thoughts of simi-autonomous driving.

One big incremental improvement they could do with this technology right now, is to have mandatory cruise control on the open rural interstates, where the car maintains the speed limit. The big danger today is most people seem to drive either 10 mph over or under the speed limit. With no one driving a constant speed. Long trips would be much less tiring if there wasn't this constant need to jockey for position, because of those going too fast or too slow.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

One big incremental improvement they could do with this technology right now, is to have mandatory cruise control on the open rural interstates, where the car maintains the speed limit. The big danger today is most people seem to drive either 10 mph over or under the speed limit. With no one driving a constant speed. Long trips would be much less tiring if there wasn't this constant need to jockey for position, because of those going too fast or too slow.

In theory this sounds great, but there is enough error in most cruise controls (and speedometers) that this wouldn't really work. Think of the older Civic with a I-4 that can't really maintain 70 MPH on a slight grade, or the cruise control that seeks a speed while varying 3-4 MPH while doing it. When I lived in Texas, I spent quite a many miles on the rural stretches of highway and I didn't see this being a big issue. What *was* annoying are the trucks that are governed to 63 MPH and they decide to pass someone where the speed limit is 80 or 85 MPH.

 

[Midpack]

One big incremental improvement they could do with this technology right now, is to have mandatory cruise control on the open rural interstates, where the car maintains the speed limit. The big danger today is most people seem to drive either 10 mph over or under the speed limit. With no one driving a constant speed. Long trips would be much less tiring if there wasn't this constant need to jockey for position, because of those going too fast or too slow.

How would that be enforced? We can't even enforce not texting while driving and other distractions. Adaptive cruise control is probably meant to address much the same issue, and adaptive will undoubtedly become more and more common in the years ahead. Eventually Luddites will be (in) the greatest danger

 

[Texas Proud]

This is one of my pet peeves. With correctly adjusted mirrors and nothing blocking the windows, there is no blind spot. Unfortunately, it seems that all new vehicles have this feature, and those of us who don't need or want it are still forced to pay for it.

NOT ALWAYS!!!!

I was driving home the other day.... and I was in a lane that merged from one highway into another... I was watching the car in front of me since it was a bit dodgy and I did not know what he was going to do....


So, get on the new freeway with 3 lanes and I was going to change lanes... looked in my rear view mirror.... looked at my right side mirror which IS adjusted properly.... and also looked to the right as a last check... and I did not see anything... was about to change lanes when the black pickup that was next to me moved up just a bit that I saw him just before me moving over...

He was at a spot where his headlights were not visible in my side mirror and the door and pillars hid him very well.... and he was black so blended in with the night...

Now, I will admit that this is a very rare event.... but your blanket stmt of no blind spot is just wrong... you can minimize it with adjusted mirrors, but cannot eliminate it all together....

 

[NW-Bound]

I use cruise control all the time when I am driving on the highway, so adaptive cruise control is something that I would also use. However, as I do not drive fast, it would not kick in for a slower car in front as often as it would for most drivers.

Most of my long-range driving now is on the MH, where I just set the speed then let other cars pass me. On the interstates, I keep to the right lane and just mind my own business.

 

[Music Lover]

but your blanket stmt of no blind spot is just wrong... you can minimize it with adjusted mirrors, but cannot eliminate it all together....

The blind spot is completely eliminated in my car. However, to be fair, I can't say that for all vehicles. But, I have yet to drive a car where I haven't been able to completely eliminate the blind spot.

 

[NW-Bound]

Many humans have already perfected the art of artificial intelligence...

Very true. But if a computer is going to drive me, I want a better form of AI than that of a texting teenager.

My daughter was rammed broadside at an intersection by a teenage driver. I strongly suspect he was texting. He totaled both my daughter's car and his parents' BMW. The side airbag of the Civic saved my daughter.

 

[meierlde]

Interestingly the issue of self driving cars is illustrated in Clarkes Imperial Earth. Essentially the self driving feature works on highways but on driveways and the like the car just stops until manual control is engaged. Just like were I live I doubt that self driving cars will get me the last mile or so as the street does not have white lines on the side or center. How many residential streets are wide enough to handle both parking on both sides as well as lane markings so you have 12 foot each way clear lanes? Often with 2 cars parked one on each side you get only 1 thru lane.
But actually rural interstates already have the white stripes both between the lanes and on the edges of the road needed for lane departure and road departure warning, which are the technologies that will be used in the future.

 

[JoeWras]

I one thing for sure about self-driving cars:

It's a fun topic that generates lots of opinions.
This is number 120 in this one thread in less than three days.

Cars are passion for many people. Cars are a bit of technology that completely changed our society. Cars are ubiquitous. Cars kill people. Cars both drive and have driven technology. Cars built cities. Cars built a middle class. Cars built pensions.

We are now on the edge of a huge change in the way we view and interact with cars. This will create a lot of discussion. It has only just begun.

 

[petershk]

Of course the key to all this is that they only have to become statistically BETTER than human drivers in aggregate to slowly become more and more accepted and eventually required IMO. I suspect that current self driving technology is already much better than human drivers including the strange ethical dilemmas, quirky detection etc. Humans make TONS of errors all the time and that is shown by the number of fatalities in cars. Over time technology has reduced that rate via making survival more likely and accidents more difficult.

It's take a generation or so before people become comfortable, but my kids will likely not remember what it was like before self driving cars in the same way that I don't remember cars before seat belts. I do remember a brief time before airbags and automatic windows

 

[Amethyst]

Well, sounds like they'll have solved the obesity problem by then, anyway. Apparently, by rationing food!

The future:

Year 2150:

News Flash on Facebook V23: Self Driving Cars (SDC's) are having trouble avoiding the Amazon drones that are clogging the streets looking for residences for deliveries of food rations these days. There have been just too many accidents and the insurance companies are raising rates (again)."

(Government Directive after reviewing statistics (three years later))


To All Owners of SDC's: "Starting in 2155, all SDC's will now be equipped with human control at all times for the purpose of maintaining crash avoidance. Any SDC found without human control will be permanently disabled and the responsible human owner fined 10 days food rations"

 

[Texas Proud]

The blind spot is completely eliminated in my car. However, to be fair, I can't say that for all vehicles. But, I have yet to drive a car where I haven't been able to completely eliminate the blind spot.

Even at night... in all conditions?

At least you are right until you are not.....

BTW, I felt the same way as you.... but have had it proven to me twice that I was wrong... lucky for me I did not change lanes...

 

[NW-Bound]

Of course the key to all this is that they only have to become statistically BETTER than human drivers in aggregate to slowly become more and more accepted and eventually required IMO.

True.

I suspect that current self driving technology is already much better than human drivers including the strange ethical dilemmas, quirky detection etc. Humans make TONS of errors all the time and that is shown by the number of fatalities in cars...

False.

The statistics that Tesla quotes of 130 million miles for the 1st fatality is just a spin from the company. How many drop outs of the autopilots happened that required taking over by the driver who had to remain fully attentive as stated by the company? How many times the driver has to override the autopilot, when it did not even know that it could not handle the driving? Any of these could have resulted in a fatal accident (see numerous youtube videos), had the driver not been attentive to take over. The Florida driver was not paying attention to notice that the Tesla autopilot failed to see the semi-trailer. He died. How many people could have died if they were not paying attention?

Let me ask any Tesla autopilot user out there. How many miles can you have the autopilot engaged without it hiccuping (either dropping out voluntarily or requiring you to take over forcefully)? Can you go for 100 miles without a problem? If it drops out every 10 miles, then that's how soon you would get killed if you were dozing off.

The 130 million miles statistics is just a spin by the company, who is acting more and more like politicians. It's bull ****. Do not fall for it.

Tesla autopilots only work on highways, and cannot navigate city streets, or shopping mall parking lots. Google cars are much more advanced, and they cannot really do that either.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Tesla autopilots only work on highways, and cannot navigate city streets, or shopping mall parking lots. Google cars are much more advanced, and they cannot really do that either.

This is partly wrong. As you can see here, the car is able to drive on 2 lane roads just fine.

 

[meierlde]

But how many city streets (except if they have bike lanes) have a white strip on the side? Let alone how many residential streets have any striping at all. The issue of striping depends on the speed limits involved. If you get above 55 I suspect you find full striping but 25 to 35 mph no striping.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

But how many city streets (except if they have bike lanes) have a white strip on the side? Let alone how many residential streets have any striping at all. The issue of striping depends on the speed limits involved. If you get above 55 I suspect you find full striping but 25 to 35 mph no striping.

Apparantly it's not much of an issue with the release of 7.1 (software). It does have a limitation in that you can only program it to exceed the speed limit by 5 MPH.

In the video, we can see the Model S cruising at 45 mph after passing the 40 mph speed limit sign and only slowing down to pass a cyclist, which is impressive on its own.

Interestingly, the Model S is able to stay in the right lane while planning its path without lane markings.

 

[NW-Bound]

This is partly wrong. As you can see here, the car is able to drive on 2 lane roads just fine, as long as they are marked...

What I meant was that the autopilot is still not as good as the human brain which can tell where the car should be, based on his vision of other cues such as the road shoulder, the grass growing by the sides of the road, etc...

Can you drive where there are no clear lane markings? I can. Heck, I can even drive on narrow one-lane roads in Hawaii with no shoulders and grass growing high right next to the asphalt, and the drivers have to wait for their turn to go through a narrow section.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

What I meant was that the autopilot is still not as good as the human brain which can tell where the car should be, based on his vision of other cues such as the road shoulder, the grass growing by the sides of the road, etc...

Can you drive where there are no clear lane markings? I can. Heck, I can even drive on narrow one-lane roads in Hawaii, where the drivers have to wait for their turn to go through a narrow section.

I am not debating what is better, the car or the human driver. I agree with you that the human (for now) is indeed the better performer. BUT...you said that the car couldn't 'autopilot' on unmarked roads, and that is just not true.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am not debating what is better, the car or the human driver. I agree with you that the human (for now) is indeed the better performer. BUT...you said that the car couldn't 'autopilot' on unmarked roads, and that is just not true.

No! Not for 130 million miles without screwing up, as Tesla claims.

 

[Music Lover]

Even at night... in all conditions?

At least you are right until you are not.....

BTW, I felt the same way as you.... but have had it proven to me twice that I was wrong... lucky for me I did not change lanes...

When a vehicle approaches it is visible in the rear view mirror first, then both the rear view and side mirror, and then in both the side mirror and my peripheral vision. At no point is another vehicle ever out of my sight.

I have demonstrated this to several people by adjusting their mirrors and then walking toward their car from behind while they sit in the driver's seat. At no point do they lose sight of me. If you lost sight of a vehicle, then your mirrors must have been adjusted differently than mine.

 

[NW-Bound]

I am still trying to portray how I feel about the current "autopilot" technology.

Yes, they are doing things that are truly impressive. But that does not mean that their autopilot is yet what I can trust my life on. If you showed me a 5-yr old baby who could drive, I would be very impressed. That does not mean I would be willing to use him as my chauffeur.

Let's use another analogy. I taught my children to drive. It was a hell of a scary experience, and one I do not wish to repeat. I constantly worried if they saw the car coming, or if they saw the stop sign, or knew to yield to the car with the right-of-way. With the current autopilot, it would be the same way. If I have to remain fully alert, ready to take over at any time, then how is it going to help me? I would be much more relaxed to drive myself, taking all the safety precautions that I usually do.

How can Elon Musk say that his autopilot is safer than the ordinary driver, yet requires the user to stay alert all the time to catch the hiccup and ready to take over? Is he a politician, talking out of both sides of his mouth?

I will use an autopilot when I am convinced that it is safer than ME, and not a texting teenager who has a close call every 10 miles.

 

[ERD50]

No! Not for 130 million miles without screwing up, as Tesla claims.

But isn't it fair to say (and all Tesla is saying) that the combination of the driver and Tesla's driver assist has resulted in lower than average deaths?

They aren't saying it could drive a safe 130 million miles w/o any driver intervention.

I suspect there is still spin in that. It should be compared to fatality rates of similar profile vehicles (luxury cars) that do not have these features.

And again, humans have plenty of screw ups that don't result in a fatality or even an accident (just a very scary near-miss).

I cross-posted, so an quick edit/add:

How can Elon Musk say that his autopilot is safer than the ordinary driver, yet requires the user to stay alert all the time to catch the hiccup and ready to take over? Is he a politician, talking out of both sides of his mouth?

But, if you stay alert and the car is constantly monitoring you, it's a bit like having a co-pilot, both watching out and ready to take over if the other misses something. That could be safer. But not if each of them figures the other will deal with it, and they BOTH miss something (like the side of an 18 wheeler!).

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

The enhanced safety measures could be implemented with blindspot detection, lane-deviation warning, adaptive cruise control, etc... It did not have to be a "false" autopilot not ready for its time, that lured the driver into watching DVD, texting, or dozing off.