The God Delusion

[azanon]

"Good breeding consists in concealing how much we think of ourselves and how little we think of the other person."

Mark Twain
(Samuel Clemens)
      samclem

I fully agree, which is why I key in on that in real life.   These messageboards are not real life.   This life disappears when i click that power button on the monitor.  No repercussions other than an occasional flame.   

Azanon

(edit) tidbit: for those that do not know, Mark Twain was an atheist.

 

[youbet]

I'm sure that's true d to d.  It seems the definition of atheist is a bit of a misty cloud, at least in the discussion we're having here.  It's easy to vision people at the extremes:  an assertive atheist getting in the face of a Muslim to let them know he thinks they're nuts for believing in their god or, on the other extreme, an Orthadox Jew living a strict religion-directed life.  But I have a feeling most folks are somewhere in the middle and get shoved into buckets as convenient.

BTW, when I made that statement, I was thinking of assertive atheists who seek you out to influence the way you think.  My acquaintances who identify themselves as atheists are that type.    And always "itching for a fight."  

 

[azanon]

I've never met an assertive atheist in RL, and only a few that claim to even be one.   Most really are quiet because most tend to be educated, and know when they're outnumbered.   It does one little social favors to go waving a big banner declaring one is an atheist.   I'm sure people like Dan Barker who made it so public face constant social torment because of it.

I'm definitely a closet atheist in RL, except to a select few friends and my mom and dad.

 

[lets-retire]

People in prison usually have some sort of mental issue that got them there, and one has to be a bit irrational to accept any religion, so it makes a good deal of sense to me.  * shrug *

I would have to disagree with the "usually have some sort of mental issue that got them there" portion of this statement. Some do have a mental issue that caused the action, but many, even though they suffer from some type of mental issue, it had no effect on their criminal actions.

I would probably describe them as selfish. After all they are normally only thinking of themselves and how they can get ahead, no matter the costs.

 

[Michael Moore]

Yeah, there are lots of "apa-atheists" too - people who just don't have religion impact their lives, and so don't give it any thought.

youbet, at IIDB we've got a pretty active Church/State Separation forum (and yes, there are people in the USA who are working towards instituting a theocracy), a Secular Lifestyle forum to help people deal with being secular in a largely theistic culture, a forum dealing with secular activism, and an Evolution/Creation forum that has a lot of very knowledgeable people helping to debunk the so-called "Intelligent Design" and other pseudo-scientific beliefs that are being insinuated into schools.

Non-believers can be just as humanitarian as believers.  But you get back to the "where's the organizing principle" issue to bring people together.  The absence of a belief doesn't tend to bring people together into a group, and then once a group is there they go looking for something to do.  

My impression is that many of the non-believers just do their humanitarian/charitable activities without making a fuss about it.  Religious organizations often seem to make a big hullaballo about "look what we are doing for the greater glory of our diety".

Robert Ingersoll wrote "The hands that help are holier than the lips that pray."  There seem to be a lot of believers who have the idea of "I know what I'll do to help those unfortunate people, I'll add them to my prayer list" and figure they've done their part.  The non-believer doesn't have that easy out - they either help, or recognize that they aren't helping.

You certainly can't help everyone, and each individual has to pick and choose their cause(s).  

If you want to envision someone getting into someone else's face, you don't have to go much farther than the typical street preacher, JW/Mormon door-bell ringer, etc.  It is so heartwarming to have someone come up and tell you that you are a vile person destined for eternal punishment.

Shucks, I think there are whole television networks devoted to that.

The "angry atheist" tends, in my experience, to be someone who has had all they can stand and they can't stands no more.  Remember, a large number of atheists were at one time believers, and often very devout and dedicated believers (including members of the clergy).  When you get to a point where you look back and have no choice but to conclude that the last X decades of your life were spent on a sham, and then you find that when you want to go your own way you are shunned by your friends and/or family, it isn't surprising that there can be a teensy bit of anger that shows up.

It doesn't help either when you see your government officials, who are supposed to be acting in a neutral fashion to all citizens regardless of belief or lack thereof, busy doing everything they can to inject not just religion, but a specific religion, into government activities.

cheers,
Michael

 

[youbet]

My impression is that many of the non-believers just do their humanitarian/charitable activities without making a fuss about it.

I'm extremely glad to hear that.  It's the right thing to do in my opinion.

Religious organizations often seem to make a big hullaballo about "look what we are doing for the greater glory of our diety".

  Clearly some do, clearly some don't.  You probably have an understandable bias in that regard.

You certainly can't help everyone, and each individual has to pick and choose their cause(s).

 I sure agree with that.

If you want to envision someone getting into someone else's face, you don't have to go much farther than the typical street preacher, JW/Mormon door-bell ringer, etc.  It is so heartwarming to have someone come up and tell you that you are a vile person destined for eternal punishment.

  Yep, agreed.  Whether it's a JW/Mormon pushing his beliefs on me or aetheists heckling Christians worshipping in a public area, I've no use for it.  Live and let live without judgement.   

then you find that when you want to go your own way you are shunned by your friends and/or family, it isn't surprising that there can be a teensy bit of anger that shows up.

Being shunned is indeed an expected part of breaking away from a culture, religious or otherwise. But I think that being true to yourself is the way to go and I applaud you for it. 

 

[Michael Moore]

. . . or aetheists heckling Christians worshipping in a public area, I've no use for it.

OK, let's look at that statement.  Who is getting into faces at the start by worshipping "in a public area"?

The last time I looked around there is NO shortage of churches, Kingdom Halls, synagogues, temples etc in the United States.  Many of them seem to be open many hours a day, and some 24/7.  Why, I even have the impression that to a large degree those establishments operate pretty much tax free, which means that the public gets to foot the bill for providing a lot of infrastructure for them (which doesn't seem too equitable, does it?).

The Christians (since they are the predominent religious group in the USA) have a biblical injunction about that:  Mathew 6:5 "When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men."

That appears to be largely to be ignored by many Christians who seem to delight in forcing their religion out into the public spaces and into people's faces.  Once you decide to put on a public spectacle, you probably should not be surprised if the public decides to tell you what they think about that.

They've already got plenty of places to do their stuff - why can't they leave the rest of us in peace?  If I go to a local government meeting, I don't need to listen to a prayer.  If I go to a sporting event, I don't need to listen to a prayer.  If I go out to eat I don't need to listen to a bunch of people loudly praying and interrupting other people's conversations.  If I'm walking down the street I don't need someone coming up and inquiring if I've seen Jesus, (they sure seem to have a hard time keeping track of that guy).  I don't need to find religious pamphlets (like those from the wacky Jack Chick  http://www.chick.com/catalog/bibleseries.asp  ) scattered on the bus or under my windshield wipers or in my doorway.

If people want to go to their church and speak in tongues or writhe on the floor or handle serpents or engage in ritual symbolic cannibalism or whatever - knock yourself out.  As long as they'll stay at the "god botherer" stage and do not get into the "neighbor botherer" mode they aren't likely to find their friendly neighborhood atheist imposing on their private activities.

cheers,
Michael

 

[donheff]

It seems the definition of atheist is a bit of a misty cloud,... But I have a feeling most folks are somewhere in the middle and get shoved into buckets as convenient.

If there was a line for "secular humanist" or just "humanist" on the "what is your religion" polls I suspect a fair number of agnostics, atheists, and assorted religious would check that box.