The God Delusion

[samclem]

I'm reading The End of Faith by Sam Harris right now. The book is not about creationism vs ID nor does Harris spend much time making the intellectual case against religion/belief in God--he takes these as a given and just mentions these well worn points in passing. His main theme is that, in the present age, belief in God and religion is not a harmless personal issue, but has important implications for the safety and stability of society. The easy part of his argument to accept is that radical religionists (generaly Islamic, but violent Christians and those of other religions, too) need to be recognized for the irrational actors they are and should be put away. On a more controversial note, he rejects the acceptance of moderate (i.e. nonviolent) religion by our society, claiming this just facilitates the radical Islamists and Christians. Harris makes the case that the radical, violent Islamists, Jews, and Christians are actually living and behaving in ways more true to the real text of their holy scriptures than do moderates.

I'm only about 1/3 of the way through, but I'm finding it a good, intersting read, though he's a little repetitious for me. I don't buy it all, but he makes many good points.

If you are concerned about Islamic violence, you'll find the book interesting. If you are concerned that a leader charged with guiding a nation and using awesome military power also believes God speaks to people directly, you'll find the book interesting.

Oh, and regarding FSM and Pastafarianism-- "Be touched by his noodly appendage"

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Observe my avatar in Greaney's board.

 

[virginia]

"Harris makes the case that the radical, violent Islamists, Jews, and Christians are actually living and behaving in ways more true to the real text of their holy scriptures than do moderates. "

Ok - I just wanna go on the record as saying that the above statement is ridiculous.

 

[donheff]

"Harris makes the case that the radical, violent Islamists, Jews, and Christians are actually living and behaving in ways more true to the real text of their holy scriptures than do moderates. "

Ok - I just wanna go on the record as saying that the above statement is ridiculous.

I recently finished reading "Stealing Jesus" (Bawer) which makes a very good case that true Christianity is a radically liberal religion, not the parody created by so called fundamentalists.

 

[samclem]

"Harris makes the case that the radical, violent Islamists, Jews, and Christians are actually living and behaving in ways more true to the real text of their holy scriptures than do moderates. "

Ok - I just wanna go on the record as saying that the above statement is ridiculous.

Well, I've got no personal experiance with the Torah. The exhortations to violence in both the Bible and the Koran are numerous, as are calls for nonviolence. In fact, some cite these internal inconsistencies as major impediments to using these writings as a guide to appropriate behavior. Others pick and choose the passages they want to use. Harris believes modern moderate Christian religions do this--accepting the "love thy neighbor" parts while leaving out or interpreting as metaphors the specific direction to kill your children, stone your neighbors/children, instructions on the appropriate degree to which slaves may be beaten, etc (and never specificaly proscribing slavery, etc). Harris argues that every step back from the violence called for by the texts has resulted from growing societal enlightenment, not from a more authentic interpetation of the books themselves.

Anyway I just wanted to put the info out there as Harris presents it, folks can make up their own minds.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

If Jesus Christ himself returned to the United States and began living the life that is described in the Bible, the group most likely to persecute him would be the Evangelical Christians.

Why would anyone think this? Details please.


JG

 

[brewer12345]

Why would anyone think this?   Details please.


JG

Hmmm, maybe all those admonishments about giving everything to the poor, a rich man cannot enter heaven, drop everything and follow me, etc. would rub the Mercedes-driving televangelists the wrong way. Then there is all that stuff about lovng your enemies (Samaritan = modern day "islamofascist"?)...

 

[unclemick]

We beat the 'dirty birds' at home(Superdome) on Monday night tv.

Wonder of wonders.

heh heh heh heh heh

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Don't forget about the Church of the Subgenius:

http://www.subgenius.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgenius

 

[youbet]

Hmmm, maybe all those admonishments about giving everything to the poor, a rich man cannot enter heaven, drop everything and follow me, etc. would rub the Mercedes-driving televangelists the wrong way.  Then there is all that stuff about lovng your enemies (Samaritan = modern day "islamofascist"?)...

Sadly, it's not just the Protestant Evangelicals.  Here in heavily Roman Catholic Chicago, it's becoming common for parish members to give charitable contributions directly to non-religious affiliated charitable organizations instead of via the offering plate.  They're tired of hearing admonishments to give, give, give to help the poor and unfortunate while seeing the church hold such expansive wealth and the heirarchy conduct themselves immoraly.

There are many other examples.  The Minnesota Lutherns headquartered in Lake Wobegon come to mind........ Whew, talk about scandal and hypocracy!

It's a shame.  There are so many individuals who, as church members, work hard to make the world a better place for unfortunate people.  Yet, it's the TV evangelist or ass-grabbing, alcoholic priest that gets all the media attention.

I won't get into what I think of the media........

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Sadly, it's not just the Protestant Evangelicals. Here in heavily Roman Catholic Chicago, it's becoming common for parish members to give charitable contributions directly to non-religious affiliated charitable organizations instead of via the offering plate. They're tired of hearing admonishments to give, give, give to help the poor and unfortunate while seeing the church hold such expansive wealth and the heirarchy conduct themselves immoraly.

There are many other examples. The Minnesota Lutherns headquartered in Lake Wobegon come to mind........ Whew, talk about scandal and hypocracy!

It's a shame. There are so many individuals who, as church members, work hard to make the world a better place for unfortunate people. Yet, it's the TV evangelist or ass-grabbing, alcoholic priest that gets all the media attention.

I won't get into what I think of the media........

I kinda like the phrase "I am my favorite charity" from the Millionaire Next Door. This can be taken many ways, but I interpret it as meaning that I am the best person to decide how my money is spent.

 

[Nords]

I kinda like the phrase "I am my favorite charity" from the Millionaire Next Door.  This can be taken many ways, but I interpret it as meaning that I am the best person to decide how my money is spent.

In Warren Buffett's case it means "I can make these assets grow faster than you can."

 

[flipstress]

Well, I've got no personal experiance with the Torah.  The exhortations to violence in both the Bible and the Koran are numerous, as are calls for nonviolence.  In fact, some cite these internal inconsistencies as major impediments to using these writings as a guide to appropriate behavior.  Others pick and choose the passages they want to use.  Harris believes modern moderate Christian religions do this--accepting the "love thy neighbor" parts while leaving out or interpreting as metaphors the specific direction to kill your children, stone your neighbors/children, instructions on the appropriate degree to which slaves may be beaten, etc (and never specificaly proscribing slavery, etc).   Harris argues that every step back from the violence called for by the texts has resulted from growing societal enlightenment, not from a more authentic interpetation of the books themselves.

Never have read the Bible in totality, but what I gathered (rightly I hope) from Catholic school was that the New Testament kinda "supersedes" the Old Testament with its violent practices and bizarre ritualistic demands.  Also from Catholic school, we were shown that Jesus' teachings in the Bible focused on love and forgiveness, rather than satisfying traditional worship practices.  He chose not to stress all the tomes of Jewish rules but summarized what we are to do:  Love God above all else and love others as you love yourself.

Or something like that... Anyway, Jesus certainly was not traditional--he didn't condone stoning, he associated with tax collectors and people of "lower" class, he did stuff on the Sabbath, etc.

Yes, I am picking the portions that appeal to me   The Old Testament sure was weird with its proscriptions and demands for child sacrifice, etc. Maybe that's why it's called "Old"; that stuff was what people did in the old days.

 

[Lazarus]

I would not stop there. - I think all organized religions are an abomination and would probably be disdained by any god, no matter who you believe in.

Take Christ for instance. In his teachings in the Bible, he did not hold organized religion in high regard. In fact, he called it a hypocrisy. There are true Christians and then there are those that attend organized services.

Christ hung out with prostitutes, thieves and the poor. Had long hair and turned water into wine - Pretty much a worthless individual by any organized religious standards today as well as 2000 years ago. Today, he might even hang out with illegal immigrants!

Yep, Jesus was kind of a hippy type in his day. I agree with you.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

"I have no problem with God. It's some of his fan clubs that trouble me." - Anon.

 

[perinova]

There is actually no Religious majority in the USA. Non-Religious are a very sizable silent minority of 30-millions (3rd largest denomination)
see this summary http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc Topics/atheists_in_america.htm

 

[youbet]

Today, he might even hang out with illegal immigrants!

Hmmmm....... Guess that means he wouldn't be seen in Minnesota...... "Lily White Land."

 

[ash]

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." - Jonathan Swift

 

[Cut-Throat]

Hmmmm....... Guess that means he wouldn't be seen in Minnesota...... "Lily White Land."

Haven't been here in awhile huh?

 

[azanon]

FM, when you're a member of a small minority (atheists), your best tack is working for equal rights for minorities, not proving the other 95% wrong. Just saying.

There are approximately 2 billion christains in the world.    Conversely, there are approximately 800 million atheists in the world.  

Said another way, your math needs some work.

Also, dont forget the burden of proof lies on those who make fanciful claims (ie: powerful god(s) rule the earth), not on those subscribing to the default belief one is born with (aka atheism).

Azanon

 

[azanon]

Never have read the Bible in totality, but what I gathered (rightly I hope) from Catholic school was that the New Testament kinda "supersedes" the Old Testament with its violent practices and bizarre ritualistic demands.  Also from Catholic school, we were shown that Jesus' teachings in the Bible focused on love and forgiveness, rather than satisfying traditional worship practices.  He chose not to stress all the tomes of Jewish rules but summarized what we are to do:  Love God above all else and love others as you love yourself.

Or something like that... Anyway, Jesus certainly was not traditional--he didn't condone stoning, he associated with tax collectors and people of "lower" class, he did stuff on the Sabbath, etc.

Yes, I am picking the portions that appeal to me   The Old Testament sure was weird with its proscriptions and demands for child sacrifice, etc.  Maybe that's why it's called "Old";  that stuff was what people did in the old days.

Christains realize just how horrible the OT really is, so they write it off by saying the NT "supercedes" it; which one is to read just pick out the nice bits and pieces from it, but if you find something offensive there, just say it was "superceded".  God was just having many "bad hair days" during that OT time, but its ok now that his son who isnt so volatile, jealous, and temper-tantrum prone came along.   Well, then again, he did ransack the temple.

I find considerable humor with the christain religion.

Azanon

 

[jeff2006]

I think that there is a difference between "Christians" and "Christian Fundamentalists." One may be a subset of the other, or not, I don't know.

But . . . fundamentalists believe the Bible in its entirety. Other Christians may, however, look at the Bible as a composite work. There is the OT and the NT. Within the NT are the teachings of Jesus, and the teachings of others, such as the Apostle Paul. Some people, who in my opinion have as legitimate a claim to Chirstianity as anyone else, believe in the teachings of Jesus, but not necessarily in the other stuff in either the OT or the NT. So . . . the nastiness of the OT is a problem mainly for fundamentalists, not necessarily for all Christians.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I sacrificed a goat or a child . . .

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I find considerable humor with the christain religion.

Azanon

Me too, but I mostly suppress it as my SIL is a Lutheran minister
(hard core) and the father of my 5 grandchildren. Tough spot for me
but I deal with it. I will say though he is a good guy and an
excellent father so there is something to be said for those old
time Christian values.

JG

 

[flipstress]

Christains realize just how horrible the OT really is, so they write it off by saying the NT "supercedes" it; which one is to read just pick out the nice bits and pieces from it, but if you find something offensive there, just say it was "superceded".  God was just having many "bad hair days" during that OT time, but its ok now that his son who isnt so volatile, jealous, and temper-tantrum prone came along.   Well, then again, he did ransack the temple.

I find considerable humor with the christain religion.

Azanon

Well, Christ didn't appear in the Old Testament, right?  So to my simple mind, the New Testament is what counts 'cause that's when Jesus appears in the starring role.  Of course, he's God and man at the same time so his anger at the moneychangers in the temple came out of the man part.  It was "righteous anger", dude!

Anyway, I am being too simplistic and flip with Christianity--sorry.  I don't think I am a Christian, i.e., Christ-like.  It was just the religion I was exposed to and raised with.  I do admire Jesus but it is too hard to be like him and follow his teachings.

I read an interview with Uma Thurman once and she was asked if she were Buddhist.  She said something along the lines of not understanding how people can label themselves Buddhist or Christian when they are not really practicing in their life the teachings of the particular religion.  That is why I have problems saying I am a Christian-- because I'm far from Christ-like.

 

[youbet]

  I will say though he is a good guy and an
excellent father so there is something to be said for those old
time Christian values.

I know what you mean.  It's easy to bash religious groups and paint them negatively with a broad brush giving no recognition to the outstanding charitable work done by some.  Folks seem to do it with relish as they are easy targets.

Later this afternoon, I'll be picking up my oldest grandson, who is afflicted with cerebral palsey,  and taking him to his weekly speech therapy session provided by a religion-based organization.  These folks are great and I'm glad to say so publicly despite the fact that DW and I have not been active at church in some time.