“Work won’t love you back”

HealthyFuture

Recycles dryer sheets
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Hi all. I just read the transcript of this podcast that I think people here would find interesting to read or listen to. And I am curious what people think: What rings true? What is missing from the conversation? How do you think the shifting trends in how work is perceived impact the future of the economy (or do you think they are temporary and will have no impact?)

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/...sarah-jaffe.html?referringSource=articleShare
 
I did not dig deep, but he title did really grab me. The base premise resonates with my wife and I.
I happen to work for a small company, a family that is really personal and personable and generous. As nice as they are they do not support my efforts with quality help. They are incapable it seems.
 
I believe that there are shifting trends. There always will be because the nature of work is changing. More knowledge workers, more service workers.

People need to find their own balance. I loved my job, worked long hours, traveled, etc. but was well rewarded. That did not stop me from retiring at 58.
I worked for a great company but over time it changed. I realized that and it made it that much easier to leave the company and the industry.

I have seen too many people work at jobs or in companies that they either did not like or were not well suited to. For whatever reason they stayed. I left two jobs and ultimately switched careers because I was not happy. Some people thought I was foolish.


Last stats I saw was that someone in the workforce will have at least seven employers during their lifetime, perhaps more. Plus at least one change of careers and possibly a stint or retraining or entering into a post grad. program.
 
@skyking @brett @markola - thanks for your responses. I’ve been at the same place for 20 years, and it’s become all too clear that while I do whatever I can to contribute to a work community that is more infused with care, I have only my small circle of influence. I’m clear that the organization will never love me back (though I think a few people will). What’s a bummer is how expendable the people in charge think we all are.

What I was most struck by in the podcast is the idea of vast swaths of employees in the U.S. possibly coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to live than what we’ve been doing in our society treating so many people as expendable. And that the nature of our economy, including the stock market, could change dramatically. Basically if a bunch of people say “hey, I’m not working this hard anymore just so you can profit off of me and treat me as expendable” — that could shift things.
 
Maybe some folks have unrealistic expectations of work, and think of it as a group hug or pseudo family, but that is truly their fault.

Work is something a person does for $$$.

A lot of folks are under the wrong impression of work, I saw this as a contractor, which I'll admit I fell under the same delusions when I was an employee. Some companies really work this, even calling their employees "associates". etc.

Of course employees should be treated respectfully, but the bottom line is they came to do a job.
 
My parents emphasized two things.

Get a post secondary education that will provide you with some employment/employer independence and mobility.

Don't spend your life trapped in working at a job that you do not like. Keep looking until you find a job that you like.

It was true in the 60's and 70's. Even more so now.
 
"SARAH JAFFE: The short version of this, not to put too fine a point on it, is that a lot of people realized during the pandemic that their boss doesn’t really care if they die. And I say that, and it sounds sort of sarcastic, but it’s also very true."

In early September I had a phone interview (with two guys I knew) for the job I started 4 weeks ago. In late September/early October I was called in for a follow-up, in person interview. This time with only one of those guys. Turns out the other guy died in September. 11 days after our phone interview. I'm sure the group "cared" about the guy but in the end life went on almost w/out skipping a beat. I have become cynical and selfish regarding me, my wife and what I care about. I will give this new gig the apropriate level of effort (they are paying me obviously) but will not go the extra mile. This job shouldn't require the extra mile anyway.
 
In general everyone is for the most part expendable these days; especially at a larger organization.
I loved my career and was rewarded well, but the writing was on the wall for a future layoff, as no one in my office was 60 y.o.
So I volunteered for a very nice severance package and they replaced me with my right hand man at 75% of the cost.
 
In general everyone is for the most part expendable these days; especially at a larger organization.
I loved my career and was rewarded well, but the writing was on the wall for a future layoff, as no one in my office was 60 y.o.
So I volunteered for a very nice severance package and they replaced me with my right hand man at 75% of the cost.

Ditto. Sometimes it comes down to knowing when to go. Realizing as much financial reward as possible, having some sort of retirement plan, and moving forward with your retirement when, and in the way, that you desire.

Anyone who actually believes that the company will not survive without them needs to wake up and give their head a shake. The company will survive. In my experience those who believed that were the hardest hit when a downsizing action occured than impacted them personally.
 
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Ditto. Sometimes it comes down to knowing when to go. Realizing as much financial reward as possible, having some sort of retirement plan, and moving forward with your retirement when, and in the way, that you desire.

Anyone who actually believes that the company will not survive without them needs to wake up and give their head a shake. The company will survive. In my experience those who believed that were the hardest hit when a downsizing action occured than impacted them personally.

Agree with you completely, however in my situation I thought that I could get further employment with all my industry contacts, but to no avail.
After 15 months, I figured out that I could retire early at 57 and haven't looked back and have no contact with anyone from any former job.
 
Agree with you completely, however in my situation I thought that I could get further employment with all my industry contacts, but to no avail.
After 15 months, I figured out that I could retire early at 57 and haven't looked back and have no contact with anyone from any former job.

Same here. Only I turned down several job interview opportunities.

After six months friends said that I looked much better. I felt better. And I realized my frame of reference should really be how many healthy years did I have left to travel etc. vs how many more years could I could work.

Never looked back. No interest in my former industry. No contact. I was in an industry in constant change, including employees.

I would caution anyone to refrain from drinking the corporate 'Kool Aid'. It is not to one's best advantage.
 
After 35 years we sold the company and the new owners "didn't love me back".

But they were forced to honor my seven figure payout contract, so that was a nice kiss goodbye. (they must've really, really not have loved me to pay that much money to keep me away!)
 
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Ditto. Sometimes it comes down to knowing when to go.



100%. This is an under appreciated skill, because the chance of the employer and employee arriving at the decision simultaneously is almost nill. Better to go when you have a better opportunity, and not look back.
 
The main point of the transcript is summed up in this quote from it:


SARAH JAFFE (author of the book being discussed): I think one of the things that is really why I wanted to write this book is that I don’t think that work should provide us meaning because at the end of the day, we are working because we live under a system called capitalism, that requires private profits. And in order to make those profits, you need to exploit workers, which means you need to pay them less than the value they create for you, and this is just sort of very fundamental stuff about how the system works.

So in order for that system to continue, it requires us to all essentially get paid less than we’re worth.
 
My employer and I were out of sync by 18 months.

I was ready but waited for the golden handshake and vesting of options. It was worth the wait. I put a limit of 24 months to 'wait' them out. Gave us lots of time to think about, and prepare for our next life.
 
"SARAH JAFFE: The short version of this, not to put too fine a point on it, is that a lot of people realized during the pandemic that their boss doesn’t really care if they die. And I say that, and it sounds sort of sarcastic, but it’s also very true."

In early September I had a phone interview (with two guys I knew) for the job I started 4 weeks ago. In late September/early October I was called in for a follow-up, in person interview. This time with only one of those guys. Turns out the other guy died in September. 11 days after our phone interview. I'm sure the group "cared" about the guy but in the end life went on almost w/out skipping a beat. I have become cynical and selfish regarding me, my wife and what I care about. I will give this new gig the apropriate level of effort (they are paying me obviously) but will not go the extra mile. This job shouldn't require the extra mile anyway.


I'm not sure what your point is. Dismal Fact of Life: people die. Some of those people will die during their working career.

Except for a small Ma & Pa sized business, why shouldn't things go on "almost w/out skipping a beat"? The business has customers, those customers didn't know this guy. They expect their product/service on time. Family members may get time off, but friends/co-workers can grieve and still get their work done.

I don't understand why this would influence how you feel about the level of effort you'll put into this job.


The main point of the transcript is summed up in this quote from it:
Quote: SARAH JAFFE (author of the book being discussed): I think one of the things that is really why I wanted to write this book is that I don’t think that work should provide us meaning because at the end of the day, we are working because we live under a system called capitalism, that requires private profits. And in order to make those profits, you need to exploit workers, which means you need to pay them less than the value they create for you, and this is just sort of very fundamental stuff about how the system works.

So in order for that system to continue, it requires us to all essentially get paid less than we’re worth.

I think the quote is very true, but that last line (IMO), is a bit one-sided.

You need to look at "worth" from both sides. A simple, less personal example: I buy a box of pencils for $10. I know that the store paid less than that, so they can make a profit and stay in business. But I can't make a box of pencils (or even one pencil) for $10. It is "worth" maybe $7 to the store, but it is "worth" $10 to me (or I would not buy them!). But to turn her comment, I paid "more than they were worth". No, not really.

I'm not sure from context if the author was complaining that people aren't paid what they are 'worth', or just acknowledging it. But many do complain, and it really is just the way it works. And it's a good thing - many of those workers could not have created the business that hires them, and w/o that, they wouldn't have a job period!


-ERD50
 
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.... What I was most struck by in the podcast is the idea of vast swaths of employees in the U.S. possibly coming to the conclusion that there are better ways to live than what we’ve been doing in our society treating so many people as expendable. And that the nature of our economy, including the stock market, could change dramatically. Basically if a bunch of people say “hey, I’m not working this hard anymore just so you can profit off of me and treat me as expendable” — that could shift things.

Hey, that sounds familiar!

Isn't that the basic plot summary of "Atlas Shrugged"? But with things turned around? In "Atlas Shrugged", it was the "producers" (I think they were called, the business owners) that felt they were being taken advantage of by the workers and government, and decided to walk away?

-ERD50
 
During the last 1/2 dozen or so years of my career I saw our workplace change dramatically. This was clearly illustrated one morning at an “emergency” staff meeting where the CEO announced a coworker was fired early that morning, casually grabbed a bagel and had a bite, then just as casually announced that a second long-time employee was fired too.

And those two terminations were just the beginning. These two weren’t rockstar performers going above and beyond, but simply did the job asked of them.

I knew then there was no love from the organization and I had to get out.

Also FYI, we were very suspicious from that day forward anytime the CEO brought bagels into a meeting. We were all very afraid of being “bageled”.
 
I knew then there was no love from the organization and I had to get out.

And organizations are very aware that there is no love coming from the employees. And isn't that the way it should be? A little mutual respect, some common needs met by the team environment and deliverables from each side to the other and there ya go. No real need for any emotional bonds. "Gee boss, I can't 'feel the love'."

I have a significant labor union background. USW of A, Teamsters, LPIU and some smaller clerical unions. Some as a union member and some from the management side. I think those adversarial but dependent relationships serve as a good example of how individual employer/employee relationships should be modeled. Negotiate rules. Live by them. Renegotiate. As an owner, always be ready to close down and walk away. As an employee, always be ready to walk away. Neither should expect anything from the other long term.
 
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Hey, that sounds familiar!

Isn't that the basic plot summary of "Atlas Shrugged"? But with things turned around? In "Atlas Shrugged", it was the "producers" (I think they were called, the business owners) that felt they were being taken advantage of by the workers and government, and decided to walk away?

-ERD50

Great observation ERD50. While employer/employee relationships are often dictated by the historical times and political climate they're occurring in, generally one side or the other has the upper hand with the other squealing. Who is on top is always subject to change. I've listened to both sides rant about the other sometimes to my wit's end. It's capitalism. Otherwise, let's hold hands, sing Kum-By-Yah and " from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." The government will tell us at what age to begin working and at what age to retire.
 
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Reminds me of 'I, Pencil'
It's an essay on capitalism and how it's invisible hand guides people to develop parts and pieces to build products they had no idea about.
https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/
Click on the MP3 to listen of the PDF to read.
I'm glad I read it my first time.
 
Reminds me of 'I, Pencil'
It's an essay on capitalism and how it's invisible hand guides people to develop parts and pieces to build products they had no idea about.
https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/
Click on the MP3 to listen of the PDF to read.
I'm glad I read it my first time.

Hah! That was in my head in my earlier post, and I just switched it to a "box of pencils". :)

-ERD50
 
Hah! That was in my head in my earlier post, and I just switched it to a "box of pencils". :)

-ERD50
Well then, with all that goes into that box of pencils, How can they sell that for only $10!!

Capitalism! :dance:
 
My dad use to tell me "remember what you were upset about at work last week?"
Me "no"
Dad "Than it must not have been that important."

My work Moto "Do your best and F the rest"

Repeat after me..it's just a job, it's just a job, it's just a job....
 
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