Meditation Resolution

[O2Bfree]

Human happiness depends much more on your attitude than your conditions IMHO. YMMV

Sometimes a person has to dig pretty deep to come up with an attitude that is free from the many aspects of dissatisfaction that arise during life's greater difficulties. The residents of Lahaina come to mind.

 

[O2Bfree]

I'm curious.
For the masters here, what is your heart rate when meditating? Later in the day?
For comparison, my normal resting heart rate is low to mid forties, upper thirties when very fit.
My systolic BP is low hundreds, 102-110 when rested and relaxed.
And these biomarkers are durable.
After a long hard workout, my state of mental clarity and equanimity carries through to the next day.

I'm no master, but experienced, and I got a Polar device recently and might check this out. My resting rate is usually in the low to mid 50s, with BP 108-112 or so. I've had a number of times when I could feel my heart beating very hard and fast during meditation, but that's not typical for home practice.

Heart rate variability would be another thing to check, as it shows the reactions of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, which reflect qualities of physical and mental health. Mine is usually in the low to mid 70s when I'm having my morning coffee. It'd be interesting to see if it changes during meditation.

 

[youbet]

I appreciate you guys trying. Maybe I am just particularly dense. I'll wander off now and leave you alone. Thanks.

Turns on white noise generator...........

 

[bjorn2bwild]

I'm no master, but experienced, and I got a Polar device recently and might check this out. My resting rate is usually in the low to mid 50s, with BP 108-112 or so. I've had a number of times when I could feel my heart beating very hard and fast during meditation, but that's not typical for home practice.

Heart rate variability would be another thing to check, as it shows the reactions of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, which reflect qualities of physical and mental health. Mine is usually in the low to mid 70s when I'm having my morning coffee. It'd be interesting to see if it changes during meditation.

Okay, we can dial it down to enthusiast and I would not expect the absolute values to be as low as that seen in an endurance athlete.
For instance, a person with a normal middle of the day ~ 130 systolic BP and 60-70 BPM heart rate.
Would a regular practitioner see a sizable drop in BP and heart rate after a 15-20 minute meditation session? How long would the effect last? Those kinds of tangible markers.

 

[Koolau]

Sometimes a person has to dig pretty deep to come up with an attitude that is free from the many aspects of dissatisfaction that arise during life's greater difficulties. The residents of Lahaina come to mind.

Most of those folks are actually very resilient. They're itching to rebuild if the gummint can figure out what to do with the ash left after the fire.

 

[Gumby]

Most of those folks are actually very resilient. They're itching to rebuild if the gummint can figure out what to do with the ash left after the fire.

Put it in concrete. So you'll always have a bit of history in the new structures.

 

[Badger]

Human happiness depends much more on your attitude than your conditions IMHO. YMMV

+1 Everything I have ever heard/read/discussed for decades have said that happiness doesn't depend on conditions but rather how you decide to deal with those conditions. It is always Your choice.

 

[sengsational]

I'm curious.
For the masters here, what is your heart rate when meditating? Later in the day?
For comparison, my normal resting heart rate is low to mid forties, upper thirties when very fit.
My systolic BP is low hundreds, 102-110 when rested and relaxed.
And these biomarkers are durable.
After a long hard workout, my state of mental clarity and equanimity carries through to the next day.

It sounds like you expect meditation to translate directly to physiology. That's not somewhere I'd be going. I've never heard any modern sages even come close to mentioning anything like that. And they have put these people in MRI machines and stuff. I wouldn't suspect much would change in one's physiology in meditation. I mean, other than the obvious result of not moving. In fact, if I would suspect slightly higher rates of metabolism for someone really meditating over someone sitting still and lost in thought. When the default mode network is active in the brain, it's the easiest thing to do, so I would guess, a low energy requirement. When you are paying attention to each observation in each moment, that would seem to require more energy. Since the brain is a huge consumer of energy on a pound for pound basis, slightly more energy might be required when allowing the senations of the moment to fill your mind. I used to think meditation was dreamy and effortless, but the more I practice the more obviously wrong I was.

 

[GenXguy]

+1 Everything I have ever heard/read/discussed for decades have said that happiness doesn't depend on conditions but rather how you decide to deal with those conditions. It is always Your choice.

I wish it was that easy. It sounds good but isn't reality. My choice is to be stress free and happy, not under maximum anxiety and continual flight or fight response. How "I decide to deal with those conditions" doesn't change it. I can't control it no matter how much I try due to circumstances completely out of my control that I've been dealing with for almost a full 2 years. But yeah, it's always easy to say things like that on the outside when you're not in someone else's shoes who is actually having to live that horrible reality.

 

[O2Bfree]

It sounds like you expect meditation to translate directly to physiology. That's not somewhere I'd be going. I've never heard any modern sages even come close to mentioning anything like that. And they have put these people in MRI machines and stuff. I wouldn't suspect much would change in one's physiology in meditation. I mean, other than the obvious result of not moving. In fact, if I would suspect slightly higher rates of metabolism for someone really meditating over someone sitting still and lost in thought. When the default mode network is active in the brain, it's the easiest thing to do, so I would guess, a low energy requirement. When you are paying attention to each observation in each moment, that would seem to require more energy. Since the brain is a huge consumer of energy on a pound for pound basis, slightly more energy might be required when allowing the senations of the moment to fill your mind. I used to think meditation was dreamy and effortless, but the more I practice the more obviously wrong I was.

+1

In Zen, practicing meditation for physiological results is called bompu Zen—ordinary Zen. Studies do show it can have a modest effect on blood pressure, but cardio would be the way to go for better physical health.

I did just measure my blood pressure before and after a 25-minute sit, and it was about the same. Heart rate went down a bit, from 52 to 48, which is not really significant. HRV went up a bit from 68 to 71—not really significant. That was just one short period though, and is certainly not representative of longer periods or a days-long retreat.

The teacher I've been working with often talks about the intensity of meditation done correctly and for long enough, how we become very taut, like a cat about to pounce on a mouse, ready to respond and move in any direction necessary. That likely does translate to increased metabolism—quite different from what people assume. "You're going on a meditation retreat? Oh, that sounds SOOOO relaxing!!" Well, not exactly...

 

[sengsational]

I did just measure my blood pressure before and after a 25-minute sit, and it was about the same. Heart rate went down a bit, from 52 to 48, which is not really significant. HRV went up a bit from 68 to 71—not really significant.

You can do a "cross-over trial" on yourself. Sit for 25 minutes and let the little voice in your head yammer-on in the default mode (standard mind-wandering). The null hypothesis would be that the effect of sitting still mind wandering is equal to sitting still while gently and repeatedly bringing attention to whatever your immediate object of meditation is.


Only marginally related, but there's an observation about how our minds work that I find kind of funny. There's not much difference between being crazy and being sane. In the crazy person's case, they say out loud what the rest of us only think silently! But occasionally we all probably exhibit the symptoms of being crazy. Looking for my keys the other day, for instance. I looked "everywhere" (except where they were, of course), and became exasperated. When I finally came upon them, I said, out loud "There they are!" With nobody in ear shot, who was I talking to? Temporary insanity?

 

[O2Bfree]

Only marginally related, but there's an observation about how our minds work that I find kind of funny. There's not much difference between being crazy and being sane. In the crazy person's case, they say out loud what the rest of us only think silently! But occasionally we all probably exhibit the symptoms of being crazy. Looking for my keys the other day, for instance. I looked "everywhere" (except where they were, of course), and became exasperated. When I finally came upon them, I said, out loud "There they are!" With nobody in ear shot, who was I talking to? Temporary insanity?

So true! So many of the things we think and do are out of touch with reality—way more than most people want to hear about I'd bet. Just like your mother in-law with her cataracts.

 

[Agapostemon]

Introduction to Mindfulness

Starting Monday, January 8, Audio Dharma is running a series of meditations and dharma talks about mindfulness.

You can find the first week, about mindfulness of breathing, here:

https://www.audiodharma.org/series/12876

They are also being posted on the Audio Dharma podcast. In all, it will run five weeks, covering mindfulness of breathing, the body, feelings, thinking, and daily life. The speaker, Gil Fronsdal, is the senior teacher at the Insight Mediation Center in Redwood City, CA. I have long found his teachings to be practical, helpful, and often even amusing.

 

[KarenF]

I agree that meditation is good and also that Sam Harris is a smart guy, but I just can't wrap my head around his belief in determinism (no free will). I just can't

 

[GenXguy]

I agree that meditation is good and also that Sam Harris is a smart guy, but I just can't wrap my head around his belief in determinism (no free will). I just can't

It makes sense to me. I haven't listened to him, but that reminds me of that comment about the snowflake that couldn't have possibly fallen anywhere else.

 

[Badger]

I wish it was that easy. It sounds good but isn't reality. My choice is to be stress free and happy, not under maximum anxiety and continual flight or fight response. How "I decide to deal with those conditions" doesn't change it. I can't control it no matter how much I try due to circumstances completely out of my control that I've been dealing with for almost a full 2 years. But yeah, it's always easy to say things like that on the outside when you're not in someone else's shoes who is actually having to live that horrible reality.

Sorry to hear you have had a difficult time for the past 2 years. I understand those difficulties and I don't think I am on the "outside". After an active life of backpacking, sprint triathlons, and many other outdoor activities I have been dealing with debilitating chronic pain for the past 12 years from arthritis, multiple surgeries and rehab, marginally successful joint replacements and the knowledge that it will never get better only more of a challenge.
You are correct in that you can't always control the conditions. That isn't the issue. But you can control how you respond to them.
"With all this manure there must be a pony in here somewhere."

 

[O2Bfree]

Sorry to hear you have had a difficult time for the past 2 years. I understand those difficulties and I don't think I am on the "outside". After an active life of backpacking, sprint triathlons, and many other outdoor activities I have been dealing with debilitating chronic pain for the past 12 years from arthritis, multiple surgeries and rehab, marginally successful joint replacements and the knowledge that it will never get better only more of a challenge.
You are correct in that you can't always control the conditions. That isn't the issue. But you can control how you respond to them.
"With all this manure there must be a pony in here somewhere."

That is rough, Badger. So what is it that keeps your responses from getting too negative?

 

[O2Bfree]

I agree that meditation is good and also that Sam Harris is a smart guy, but I just can't wrap my head around his belief in determinism (no free will). I just can't ��

Perhaps free will is more of a perception than something we "do". Something like our sense of smell or the sense of effort we feel when we move our muscles. Or like our sense of thought, the perception of the impulses stored in the neurons in our brains. In that case, it would be deterministic, no different from any of our other senses.

 

[Badger]

That is rough, Badger. So what is it that keeps your responses from getting too negative?

I stop focusing on what can't be controlled and focus on those alternatives that I am still able to do in which I find pleasure. I may not always be successful and there are days that is a challenge but constant negativity is unproductive and will only hurt me. Otherwise time remaining just becomes a pity party.

 

[GenXguy]

Sorry to hear you have had a difficult time for the past 2 years. I understand those difficulties and I don't think I am on the "outside". After an active life of backpacking, sprint triathlons, and many other outdoor activities I have been dealing with debilitating chronic pain for the past 12 years from arthritis, multiple surgeries and rehab, marginally successful joint replacements and the knowledge that it will never get better only more of a challenge.
You are correct in that you can't always control the conditions. That isn't the issue. But you can control how you respond to them.
"With all this manure there must be a pony in here somewhere."

Sorry to hear that. I'm having some chronic pain issues also - no surgeries, yet. Sadly, I feel it's impossible to respond with happiness by choice when my sympathetic nervous system is in an automatic high anxiety "fight or flight" response most of the time along with brain fog, insomnia, and chronic pain issues. It's depressing.

 

[O2Bfree]

I stop focusing on what can't be controlled and focus on those alternatives that I am still able to do in which I find pleasure. I may not always be successful and there are days that are a challenge but constant negativity is unproductive and will only hurt me. Otherwise time remaining just becomes a pity party.

I think that takes a really open mind. I wish my mom had been able to do that. She was quite healthy and mobile right up to near the end, but spent her last few years lost in her own head, pining away over the past, all the wonderful vacations she and dad took, and grieving over the things she couldn't do anymore. She refused to engage in new activities or with new people, and really suffered in her last years.

 

[sengsational]

I wish it was that easy. It sounds good but isn't reality. My choice is to be stress free and happy, not under maximum anxiety and continual flight or fight response. How "I decide to deal with those conditions" doesn't change it. I can't control it no matter how much I try due to circumstances completely out of my control that I've been dealing with for almost a full 2 years. But yeah, it's always easy to say things like that on the outside when you're not in someone else's shoes who is actually having to live that horrible reality.

There's a good series on the "Waking Up" app from William B. Irvine, under the "Life" tab. I found that if you go to the link in the first post, you can download the app for a 30 day trial, and I don't think you need a credit card to do it.

I think for anyone that thinks they have it bad, exploring the ideas of the ancient stoics is worthwhile. And Irvine is a great teacher who brings the original ideas into the modern world. I've read many of his books too, probably free at your local library. If you're at all a book reader, you'd probably gobble them up.

 

[sengsational]

I agree that meditation is good and also that Sam Harris is a smart guy, but I just can't wrap my head around his belief in determinism (no free will). I just can't ??

It's basically a thought experiment anyway. His justification rests on the ability to rewind the universe to an earlier point and let things play out again. Of course, if every molecule in the universe is back to where it was, it's going to play out the same. "So What?" is my response, because there's no way to rewind. Thankfully, there's no reason one must buy into this idea to get value from his other ideas, or the teachers and thinkers he interviews.

 

[Badger]

Sorry to hear that. I'm having some chronic pain issues also - no surgeries, yet. Sadly, I feel it's impossible to respond with happiness by choice when my sympathetic nervous system is in an automatic high anxiety "fight or flight" response most of the time along with brain fog, insomnia, and chronic pain issues. It's depressing.

Some of us get older with health issues that are difficult to deal with. It is a challenge to get past the depression. I hope you eventually find relief. Unfortunately some folks are not successful and decide to take a permanent solution. My best friend of more than 55 years took that route. That scared me. I decided to start looking for a life style, activities, and a mindset where I could still enjoy what time I have left in spite of my issues. It is never easy and there are still times when depression creeps in. I can't change the problems but I can choose how I respond.

I think that takes a really open mind. I wish my mom had been able to do that. She was quite healthy and mobile right up to near the end, but spent her last few years lost in her own head, pining away over the past, all the wonderful vacations she and dad took, and grieving over the things she couldn't do anymore. She refused to engage in new activities or with new people, and really suffered in her last years.

I wish your mom never had to deal with any of that in her last few years.

 

[GenXguy]

There's a good series on the "Waking Up" app from William B. Irvine, under the "Life" tab. I found that if you go to the link in the first post, you can download the app for a 30 day trial, and I don't think you need a credit card to do it.

I think for anyone that thinks they have it bad, exploring the ideas of the ancient stoics is worthwhile. And Irvine is a great teacher who brings the original ideas into the modern world. I've read many of his books too, probably free at your local library. If you're at all a book reader, you'd probably gobble them up.

Thanks. I made a note of these. I'm not as much of a reader of books, especially with this severe tinnitus and brain fog it causes along with anxiety, but I'll see what I can do. Some days are easier than others.