Careers vanish after subprime freefall

[brewer12345]

Not having children in the first place would be even smarter.

Different strokes.

Let's not get into that one, eh?

 

[Urchina]

Our monthly budget (not including savings) is about $5500 a month, and we live in a very high COL area. Part of the way we keep our budget low is by making trade-offs (and I suspect most of us do). For example, we have two little kids and yet live in a 900-sq-ft condo. This keeps our house payment, taxes and HOA fees at around $2600/month. We figure that we can stay here until the kids are 6 and 4, respectively, and just need more room.

We also have two cars -- a luxury my parents didn't have when I was little, and we were squarely middle-class (my dad had a professional job, my mom stayed home).

To the OP: $600/month for a car seems like a lot, though I can understand how you got there based on past experiences. As an alternative, I used to have an '83 Volvo sedan that cost me $100/month, including repairs, gas, and insurance. Had the car for 13 years until it failed smog a couple of years ago and the state paid me $1000 to junk it.

And as for getting married / having kids -- if life were just about the money, we'd all ride the bus and be single (or DINKS).

 

[EarlyRetiree1978]

True, until you become dependent. Then you are on your own or paying for care unless you have kids to help you.

Correctly planning for retirement should mean you would not need to depend on your kids. I think the biggest gift I could give my kids (bigger then paying for there college education) is being independent during retirement and not having to smooch off them.

I love kids so I eventually will have them. Just fear all that goes along with them. I ESPECIALLY fear divorce. A prenup will take care of that though.

 

[Patrick]

True, until you become dependent. Then you are on your own or paying for care unless you have kids to help you.

Believe me, the kids will cost you WAY more than paying for your own care or purchasing LTC insurance. They're the gifts that keep on taking.

 

[Milton]

Different strokes.

No, it's not really a subjective issue. From a purely financial perspective, having children is almost always the worst decision any person can make.

 

[Bestwifeever]

From a purely financial perspective, having children is almost always the worst decision any person can make.

On t

 

[Running_Man]

No, it's not really a subjective issue. From a purely financial perspective, having children is almost always the worst decision any person can make.

At what point in life would a society, dictated by finance incentives, implementing laws which would not allow for the birth of any children affect the quality of a 43 year old early retiree's life?

Every child raised correctly will be a contributing member to society and provide the brainpower and brawnpower to enable an older retiree who has saved his time in the form of money to give in compensation to other's children for their time and therefore all benefit financially from every productive child.

Therefore, since it appears obvious to me that without children to replenish the workplace and increase the population to provide for the inherent growth in value of stocks that most astute retirees count on retirement would not be possible without them, they all must be contributing value in excess of the amount I earned in my life since the increase in stock value comes from the growth they make possible.

 

[barbarus]

Lower limits for:

Second quintile (Lower Middle Classs) $18,500/yr = $1,542/mo
Third quintile (Middle Class) $34,738/yr = $2,895/mo
Fourth quintile (Upper Middle Class) $55,331/yr = $4,611/mo
Fifith quintile (Upper Class) $88,030/yr = $7,336/mo

These may well represent the numeric quintiles, but the labels are manure. A family or even an individual earning $90K is in NO WAY upper class. Some clueless prole uploaded this to Wiki.

One needs to read Class by Paul Fussell before they can even begin to comment on the class structure of Western society.

 

[FIREd]

My wife and I don't have any kids by choice. Our decision was not based upon financial considerations but rather upon the fact that, objectively, neither of us would make a good parent. That being said the fact we don't have kids will tremendously contribute to our ability to FIRE at a rather young age. But I would caution anyone against the risk of foregoing parenthood for purely financial reasons. They might regret it later. So I think it is a very personal choice and I respect other people's decision to have kids or not, even when they don't respect mine.

 

[Running_Man]

These may well represent the numeric quintiles, but the labels are manure. A family or even an individual earning $90K is in NO WAY upper class. Some clueless prole uploaded this to Wiki.

One needs to read Class by Paul Fussell before they can even begin to comment on the class structure of Western society.

That would be the New York Times : here is the link to the article that WIKI uses, you can plug in your own information to see where you rate in the country. Use 2005 numbers though: From what I see by inflation that would correlate to about 97,000 in todays dollars

Graphic: How Class Works - New York Times

 

[Running_Man]

These may well represent the numeric quintiles, but the labels are manure. A family or even an individual earning $90K is in NO WAY upper class. Some clueless prole uploaded this to Wiki.

One needs to read Class by Paul Fussell before they can even begin to comment on the class structure of Western society.

In this biography of the Paul Fussell it claims that Paul wrote the book as a bit of fun and that it was not to be taken seriously?

On the other hand, he says he gets "very sick and annoyed at certain proletarian performances", and he doesn't like "social life in which the man who comes to repair the refrigerator calls you by your first name". With its Nancy Mitfordish lists of the tastes that define Americans as "upper", "middle" or "prole", Class (1983) saw its author elevated to the status of "world-class curmudgeon" by the Washington Post. The only escape from such classifications, Fussell suggested, was by joining what he called category "X" - a self-selecting aristocracy of the talented and clever. Today he says the book was a bit of fun and not meant to be taken seriously, but he remains an unashamed elitist.
The book came at the end of a difficult period in Fussell's personal life, and he regrets that he didn't handle the break-up of his first marriage better. Keegan, who describes Fussell as a "very complicated", unusual person

Profile: Paul Fussell | By genre | guardian.co.uk Books

 

[TickTock]

These may well represent the numeric quintiles, but the labels are manure. A family or even an individual earning $90K is in NO WAY upper class. Some clueless prole uploaded this to Wiki.

One needs to read Class by Paul Fussell before they can even begin to comment on the class structure of Western society.

Well, obviously I'm unqualified to comment on the class structure of Western society, since I haven't read the book you deem essential...

... still, that's a good topic. I think dividing by quintiles is a reasonable approach - if you make more than 80% of the rest of the population, you are upper class by definition.

What other definitions would folks recommend?

 

[A854321]

Playing around with that calculator:

Between $1million and $50 million net worth or more doesn't much change your percentile.

However, it greatly changes your lifestyle.

 

[Spanky]

No, it's not really a subjective issue. From a purely financial perspective, having children is almost always the worst decision any person can make.

Apparently your parents did not make a very good financial decision in having children.

 

[metabasalt]

Agreed, but even if my house was paid for, and you eliminated that $2,100 from the budget, that would still leave $6,000/month in expenses.

I guess maybe it's related to geography? Our property taxes are pretty high, living in the city limits. Is $350/person/month for groceries too much? We try to eat pretty healthy, most of that cost is probably milk and meat. Veggies, pasta, and rice are cheap.

Our car is paid for, we simply redirect the old car payment into a special fund for vehicle repairs, or a down payment when it comes time to replace it. (I don't want to get too used to having that money back in our pockets, it would just make it painful when we had to buy a car again).

Insurance is mandatory, cars need gas to run, we have to pay for heat and electricity... what's "too much" in our budget?

We also live in a large city and hope to retire in a year or so with monthly costs of 4-5k. But right now we rarely eat out, cook our food, mainly very healthy, and often organic which does raise the price. But we spend $1000 a month almost on food. Compared to everything I've read and what you say you'd think we were eating like kings! This probably includes $50 for wine each month and maybe $100 for cat food. But I'm still shocked when I see what we spend compared to most people............

 

[barbarus]

What other definitions would folks recommend?

Back to Wiki.

American upper class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a much better look at the type of people who would never associate with us.

They would have servants blog for them.

 

[Patrick]

Back to Wiki.

American upper class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a much better look at the type of people who would never associate with us.

They would have servants blog for them.

I've got to disagree with the article on this point:

'While most contemporary sociologists estimate that only 1% of households are members of the upper class, sociologist Leonard Beeghley states all households with a net worth of $1 million or more to be "rich."'

Being a millionaire ain't what it used to be. Back in the day when a dollar was worth something, yeah, "millionaire" meant something. Now, it's just run-of-the-mill.

 

[barbarus]

In this biography of the Paul Fussell it claims that Paul wrote the book as a bit of fun and that it was not to be taken seriously?

Profile: Paul Fussell | By genre | guardian.co.uk Books

Yeah, Paul got much grief for telling people what they didn't want to hear and had to backpedal to make it all better. Like any politician or other entertainer, Fussell is willing to say whatever meets the needs of the moment.

Talk really is cheap.

The book gives a lot of valuable insight though and is a valuable read.

One example of class misidentification very commonly encountered is when blue collar, working class people refer to themselves as middle class.

I was puzzled by that for quite a while.

 

[Milton]

One needs to read Class by Paul Fussell before they can even begin to comment on the class structure of Western society.

You mean: American society. As the book's subtitle ("A Guide Through the American Status System") implies, Fussell does not purport to comment on other Western countries.

I agree that it is an excellent and insightful book. His comments regarding 'Prole Drift', and the 'college swindle', are spot-on.

 

[youbet]

Well, obviously I'm unqualified to comment on the class structure of Western society, since I haven't read the book you deem essential...

... still, that's a good topic. I think dividing by quintiles is a reasonable approach - if you make more than 80% of the rest of the population, you are upper class by definition.

What other definitions would folks recommend?

I usually think about the upper class as being the top 5% or so. Using the top 20% just seems too broad since there is a dramatic difference in wealth between those in the top 5% and those between 15% and 20% due to the shape of the curve. On the other hand, there is little difference in wealth between those in the 40% to 45% group and those in the 25% to 30% group, also due to the shape of the curve.

Dividing into quintiles doesn't seem reasonable due to shape of the curve which places most of the wealth in the top few percent and little of the wealth in the bottom 70% - 80%.

 

[youbet]

Being a millionaire ain't what it used to be. Back in the day when a dollar was worth something, yeah, "millionaire" meant something. Now, it's just run-of-the-mill.

That's for sure! Few on this board would disagree that a couple retiring on one million bux (NO pension or retiree med benefits) would have to lead a modest life to get by.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

We also live in a large city and hope to retire in a year or so with monthly costs of 4-5k. But right now we rarely eat out, cook our food, mainly very healthy, and often organic which does raise the price. But we spend $1000 a month almost on food. Compared to everything I've read and what you say you'd think we were eating like kings! This probably includes $50 for wine each month and maybe $100 for cat food. But I'm still shocked when I see what we spend compared to most people............

We spent 12000 or so last year on food,grocery,wine and household cleaning supplies. etc. We aren't that far off from you.

 

[youbet]

Apparently your parents did not make a very good financial decision in having children.

Milton is correct of course. Raising kids is expensive. Strangely though, none of our militantly child-free friends openly express a desire that, for the sake of their parents, they had not been born!

 

[Khan]

Milton is correct of course. Raising kids is expensive. Strangely though, none of our militantly child-free friends openly express a desire that, for the sake of their parents, they had not been born!

Do they think they would be upset if they had never been born?

 

[al_bundy]

We also live in a large city and hope to retire in a year or so with monthly costs of 4-5k. But right now we rarely eat out, cook our food, mainly very healthy, and often organic which does raise the price. But we spend $1000 a month almost on food. Compared to everything I've read and what you say you'd think we were eating like kings! This probably includes $50 for wine each month and maybe $100 for cat food. But I'm still shocked when I see what we spend compared to most people............

You have to treat Whole Foods like Costco. only buy the on sale meat and buy a lot of it. like when ground beef was on sale in NYC i bought 12 pounds worth