From Prince(ss) to Pauper

[stephenandrew]

This board loves to bash some poor dumb schmuck who has always been a poor dumb schmuck.

I really don't think she, or many of the people taken by Madoff, are "dumb schmucks". An awful lot of very bright, business people who were finanically astute (Mortimer Zuckerman, the money managers for NYU, Tufts, Bard, Henry Kaufman--former chief economist a Salomon Brothers, etc) lost money. Frankly, I think a lot of the bashing comes from people who like to see those who are more successful than themselves "fall". If what Ms. Penny writes is true, it sounds like she made her money through hard work, being creative, insightful, resourceful. How she chose to spend her money (having maid service, high count linens, 40 white shirts, a So-Ho studio, etc) is probably not the way many of us would spend our money if we had her resources, but it was her money to spend. The fact that she chose to live a "lavish" lifestyle and has now lost that ability seems to give a lot of people (sadly) some sort of satisfaction. Yes, Madoff was a crook--we know that now, but a year ago he was perceived as an upstanding, reputable, money manager.

 

[RonBoyd]

I really don't think she, or many of the people taken by Madoff, are "dumb schmucks".

Exactly. This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. It is surprising that so many have, so easily, put the PoRC into the same category as this guy:

Leamington man loses $150,000 in Nigerian scam

The only similarity I can find is:

“I really thought in my heart this was true,” said Rempel.

For entirely different reasons, however -- greed vs trust.

In any event, my earlier reference to Scott Burns' "same as murder" piece does hold true (IMHO) for both episodes... and for both perpetrators.

 

[Frugality_of_Apathy]

The fact that she chose to live a "lavish" lifestyle and has now lost that ability seems to give a lot of people (sadly) some sort of satisfaction. Yes, Madoff was a crook--we know that now, but a year ago he was perceived as an upstanding, reputable, money manager.

It's not that people are getting satisfaction from it, there were many other investors also that their fortunes but we aren't hunting them down to gloat. It's the arrogance that these people are displaying that I find so offensive. Suing third parties because you got conned and expecting that the government will give you the money you thought you were making based on insider trading is not going to instill sympathy. That fact that the "Bag lady" equates only having a few millions dollars with being homeless on the street is a slap in the face to 99% of the country.

Exactly. This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. It is surprising that so many have, so easily, put the PoRC into the same category as this guy:

Leamington man loses $150,000 in Nigerian scam

Is it really that different?

The nigerian 419 scam is much more sophisticated than the ponzi scheme. In one case, unbeknownst to you money is being sapped out of your account, in the other case you're just giving someone your money and hoping they'll give you back more later though they even acknowledge you could lose the money when they take it.

Con's always seem to work in the beginning. That's pretty much the defining aspect of a Confidence Plan; they give you great returns on your trust and build confidence, once that confidence is high enough that the Confidence Man pulls the rug out from under you and walks off your money and pride. The only difference between the two scams is how many iterations of confidence building happen before the plan is revealed.

 

[haha]

I really don't think she, or many of the people taken by Madoff, are "dumb schmucks". An awful lot of very bright, business people who were finanically astute (Mortimer Zuckerman, the money managers for NYU, Tufts, Bard, Henry Kaufman--former chief economist a Salomon Brothers, etc) lost money.

You misunderstood my intent. I think the board gives her a fair amount of respect, precisely because she is not one of life's typical losers. She is thought by many (though not by me) to be a talented writer. She obviously had and still has money- probably even now more than many on this very board. After you have been around here for a while you will see who is disrespected. Some random dumb schmuck, or someone who had some bad luck that board members think should have been overcome or avoided by proper planning, or cheaper eating, selling one's children or whatever.

Ha

 

[stephenandrew]

It's not that people are getting satisfaction from it, there were many other investors also that their fortunes but we aren't hunting them down to gloat. It's the arrogance that these people are displaying that I find so offensive. Suing third parties because you got conned and expecting that the government will give you the money you thought you were making based on insider trading is not going to instill sympathy. That fact that the "Bag lady" equates only having a few millions dollars with being homeless on the street is a slap in the face to 99% of the country.

With regard to your first point about people not getting satisfaction--I would repectfully disagree. My reading of the comments posted about her situation stirke me as people taking satisfaction that she led a lifestyle that others found "offensive" and now she is getting what she deserves. I will grant you, that this is my interpreatation of those comments, but I think many people like to see the rich/famous fall. SOem of the comments on her blog bear this (in my opinion) out.

Regarding your other point, in her particular case, I don't recall her blog making any reference about suing anyone, expecting the government to make her whole, nor do I recall her blaming anyone except Madoff. I also don't recall her really ever clarifying what her financial position is. While she may have millions in assets (e.g. an apartment in Manhattan, a cottage in Florida), I don't recall her elaborating on what her liabilities (e.g. mortgages, etc), if any, are. My point is, it would appear that she is being judged only on what she has, not on what she has and what she owes. Now, I will certainly grant you that her situation does not equate to literally being a bag lady, but if I had worked all of my life to achieve a certain level of financial status, put my money in the hands of a presumed financial expert (who was trusted by many), and I lost much of my savings, I would be distraught myself. If I am not mistaken, a few of Madoff's invetsors (who presumably still had "a lot" of money--possibly more than many people psoting in this forum) were distraught ot he point of suicide--were these suicides a "slap in the face to 99% of the country" as well? So she may be taking artistic license referring to herself as a bag lady--so what--let her bitch, let her write/share her story to make a few bucks--she is not without justification to be bitter.

 

[stephenandrew]

You misunderstood my intent. I think the board gives her a fair amount of respect, precisely because she is not one of life's typical losers. She is thought by many (though not by me) to be a talented writer. She obviously had and still has money- probably even now more than many on this very board. After you have been around here for a while you will see who is disrespected. Some random dumb schmuck, or someone who had some bad luck that board members think should have been overcome or avoided by proper planning, or cheaper eating, selling one's children or whatever.

Ha

I appreciate the clarification--though I am not sure I am seeing your point. Are you basically saying that you don't respect the financial decisions and lifestlye choices she made in her life? Are you saying she did not plan properly? (I am not trying to be argumentative or challenge your questions---honestly trying to understand where you are coming from.)

 

[haha]

I appreciate the clarification--though I am not sure I am seeing your point. Are you basically saying that you don't respect the financial decisions and lifestlye choices she made in her life? Are you saying she did not plan properly? (I am not trying to be argumentative or challenge your questions---honestly trying to understand where you are coming from.)

LOL! THis is getting too compicated! I'll just stick to what is clear- I shed no tears for person. Every day I see many people worse off than her, and possibly none better off.

But as to crime victims, for me she is way down on the list. She was a qualified investor, she had some special juice that got her in with the big dogs. It didn't work out. Boo-hoo!

Ha

 

[stephenandrew]

LOL! THis is getting too compicated! I'll just stick to what is clear- I shed no tears for person. Every day I see many people worse off than her, and possibly none better off.

But as to crime victims, for me she is way down on the list. She was a qualified investor, she had some special juice that got her in with the big dogs. It didn't work out. Boo-hoo!

Ha

Understood---in that case, we would disagree. Thanks for the clarification though.

 

[DangerMouse]

I would love to see clarification on how much people actually lost. For Ms Penney I would like to see how much she invested and how much she withdrew, for me the only real loss is the difference is between these two numbers.

The truth is there are probably a lot of people out there who have no money at all to invest who may be enjoying what they see as elitist like members of this board take a beating in the stock market.

If you want me to feel sorry for the Madoff victims should I then be feeling just as sorry for members of this board who have taken a beating because of their investment choices? The truth is we are all big boys and girls responsible for our own money and as such we all have to live with their consequences.

 

[RonBoyd]

I would love to see clarification on how much people actually lost.

Yeah, I know... it's not real clarification. Nevertheless...

Madoff suicide investor lost own money, too - U.S. business- msnbc.com

The French financier who killed himself after losing more than $1 billion of his clients' investments to Bernard Madoff's alleged fraud also saw his own family's money disappear, his older brother told The Associated Press on Friday.

Marc Rich's Madoff Loss "Insignificant": $10-$15 Million

A spokeswoman said he suffered an “insignificant” loss in the Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme.

Alison Leigh Cowan of The Times reports that the loss was “$10 million to $15 million.”

MADOFF LOSS: TAX WRITEOFFS - New York Post

Experts say tax rules allow taxpayers to write off losses from theft, such as those alleged in the Ponzi scheme admitted to by Madoff, who's lost investors billions, and may have cost the Internal Revenue Service $17 billion in lost tax revenue.

and so on and so on and so on...

 

[CuppaJoe]

Pauper no more? Seems she's made lemonade, crying all the way to the bank?

Bilked by Madoff, Blog’s ‘Bag Lady’ Gets Book Deal - ArtsBeat Blog - NYTimes.com

 

[Bestwifeever]

She's already a bestselling author and obviously has the publishing contacts--so in a sense she's just going back to work, I guess. Lucky her.

 

[FinanceDude]

She's a real piece of work, what a yutz...........