Frugality vs. technology

[GTFan]

This is a prime example of frugalality vs. technology "valuation" to me.

If you add up the number of hours you spend in front of your computer (especially if you are still using it for w*rk), and amortize the cost over that, spending $1000 every 2-3 years is PEANUTS compared to the efficiency, security, and reduced aggravation that it can provide.

Except that the hardware vs. software equation has mostly leveled off to the point that a 5-6 year old laptop with 4GB of RAM will run Win10 just fine. Which is my laptop, to be exact, since all I'm doing on it is surfing and playing a few non graphic-intensive games. I have a desktop PC with a beefy graphics card to handle FPS and RP games, but that's a whole 'nother animal.

I use a 17" because I want the bigger screen and see little reason to upgrade from a perfectly fine i3 to the latest i5 or whatever. It's just not that CPU constrained to matter, especially if you're using an SSD as your OS drive and have enough RAM.

I think a lot of people end up with new computers because they are careless on the web and have to replace malware-infested boxes, or don't bother to notice that when they install all those programs they get a lot of junk that takes up CPU and memory every time they boot. A little maintenance goes a long way with a PC nowadays but most folks don't know what to do. I've fixed so many perfectly fine PCs for family and friends I've lost count.

 

[LOL!]

I figure a large computer display just makes your eye muscles lazier, so you train your eyes to be unable to read the words on other things like food labels, magazines, newspapers, theater tickets, your phone, etc.

 

[NW-Bound]

I forgot to say that I buy a new laptop computer every couple of years, which is more than just a little bit insane, KWIM? But OMG, I get such a huge kick out of it. If you think kids are happy on Christmas morning, you ought to see W2R opening the box for her new laptop computer. Which, by the way, I did just a couple of weeks ago.

Some people buy booze, I buy computers.... But the rest of that stuff? Eh, who cares.

Somebody mentions "booze"!

Booze is as non-technology as anything. Why, these Frenchmen have been distilling and aging Cognac since 1500's, and that technology has not changed much if at all. If it works, why mess with it?

Wow, I do recall you bought a new laptop when Win 10 came out. I just looked up Quicken to see when I bought the laptop I am typing this on: Dec 2011. And it is still running Win 7 because I do not want any disruption with Win 10 upgrade. I did update 3 desktops, and 2 netbooks to Win 10 though.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Our cars have over 100K miles left on them each. We might trade them in some day for electric or newer models. We usually buy new or slightly used, good value Camry type cars, so the difference between the trade in on a 10 year old Camry for a 2 year old Camry isn't going to be a big budget buster. We live near shops, parks and restaurants, don't work outside our home these days and take the train when we go into the city so our cars just don't rack up that many miles.

I had to replace a laptop recently and I got one from Costco with Windows 10, 8 GB ram and 1T of storage for $400. If it lasts for 4 years like my last one there's a $100 a year - not a big budget buster.

Edit: Oops, checked the box and the Costco laptop was 12 GB of memory.

 

[W2R]

Our cars have over 100K miles left on them each. We might trade them in some day for electric or newer models. We usually buy new or slightly used, good value Camry type cars, so the difference between the trade in on a 10 year old Camry for a 2 year old Camry isn't going to be a big budget buster. We live near shops, parks and restaurants, don't work outside our home these days and take the train when we go into the city so our cars just don't rack up that many miles.

I had to replace a laptop recently and I got one from Costco with Windows 10, 8 GB ram and 1T of storage for $400. If it lasts for 4 years like my last one there's a $100 a year - not a big budget buster.

My present laptop cost $600 on Amazon (including tax, shipping, and a new mouse), so I figure that if I keep it 2 years, that's $300/year for me. And I agree, even though I spent 3x as much per year on the computer as you did, it simply is not a budget buster, for sure! It's just pure fun, for me anyway.

The thrill that I feel from buying a new laptop is completely irrational, I suppose. A new computer just makes me so happy! I am 68, and will be 69 in June. I am relatively healthy but like all of us, I won't be here forever. I plan to buy a new laptop computer whenever I feel like it, for the rest of my life because for me it is maximum value for the dollar.

Frank sure enjoys getting my old laptops, too, which unlike those of GTFan's family and friends, do not have malware, bloatware slowing them down, or poor maintenance histories. Luckily I (and my family and friends) are apparently quite a bit more computer savvy than his for whatever reasons.

I think a lot of people end up with new computers because they are careless on the web and have to replace malware-infested boxes, or don't bother to notice that when they install all those programs they get a lot of junk that takes up CPU and memory every time they boot. A little maintenance goes a long way with a PC nowadays but most folks don't know what to do. I've fixed so many perfectly fine PCs for family and friends I've lost count.

 

[NW-Bound]

Speaking of computers, I do buy new "stuff" if I am convinced that it brings some worthwhile benefits.

I just bought a 10" dual-boot Win10/Android tablet, with the intention of taking it on a long trip. My 14" laptop is too heavy to lug around at 6 lbs including the AC adapter. The new tablet weighs 2.5 lbs including its keyboard/case and AC adapter. It is not as fast as the laptop, but fast enough. And its untethered run time is a lot longer.

The resolution of the tablet is higher than that of the laptop, at 1920x1280 vs. 1366x768. Everything is legible, but everything is so small it is not possible to select what I want using the touch screen. So, I have to bring a mouse, or buy a matching stylus.

Yes, technology is great, but I prefer to wait a few years to get a bigger step in performance and features. It's not the money as much as the time invested to set things up the way I want it, and to install all the software. It cuts into the time I have to learn to cook new dishes, enjoying booze, and researching travel destinations.

 

[GTFan]

Frank sure enjoys getting my old laptops, too, which unlike those of GTFan's family and friends, do not have malware, bloatware slowing them down, or poor maintenance histories. Luckily I (and my family and friends) are apparently quite a bit more computer savvy than his for whatever reasons.

You are indeed very lucky, because my experience with fixing PCs is not unique to my F&F. And of course I wasn't talking about the average person posting here that has no issues with avoiding all this junk. Agree that they're cheap enough to buy every couple of years but don't see the point, personally, when you factor in the time to set it up like you want as NW said. Along with the minimal performance/feature boosts etc., given that hardware nowadays is generally overkill for anyone not doing serious gaming on a laptop.

Whatever makes you happy!

 

[W2R]

You are indeed very lucky, because my experience with fixing PCs is not unique to my F&F.

Well, I was trying not to sound like a braggart, because I don't think it means all that much; but everyone in my family, and all or nearly all of our friends, have advanced degrees in engineering or computational science. It's just not an issue that I have ever had to deal with; not part of my world at all. I suspect that is true for many of the members here, since so many have devoted their lifetime careers to engineering, medicine, computers, science, or academia.

Now we DID have to help my mother with the occasional computer or software issues once in a while, back in the late 1980's and early 1990's. But she died in 2007 at age 98. And by now, computers are about as hard to set up as a toaster.

If you don't enjoy buying and setting up new hardware, nobody's forcing you to do it. Sounds like you pretty much hate it.

 

[NW-Bound]

I used to be much more interested in PC hardware and software. I would tweak things then run benchmarks to see if I could increase the computational speed by a few percent. Overclocking, anyone? I am sure many posters here have done that.

The overclocking bit me in the ass a few months ago. Dunno if I talked about it before, but one of the desktops started crashing and rebooting. Drove me nuts, as programs to test RAM and CPU did not show anything. At first I blamed Win 10, then thought the better of it.

It turned out that when I got this motherboard+CPU a couple of years back, I played with it to see how much I could overclock it. Then, it seemed to run fine with no overheating, so I left it there. Now, when the hardware got old, problems started to show up. After I restored the clock back to the CPU rating, it has been running fine.

Just a few days ago, I had to uninstall AVG on 3 of my machines. I have used it for more than 15 years. The recent update messed things up, and slowed the machines down to the point of being unusable. I now run just Windows Defender, and have not had the time to research a better antivirus program. PC maintenance takes more time than I am now willing to spend.

My son just spent a lot of money on his new desktop. He bought parts to build an ultimate gaming machine. I warned him about overclocking, but I think he ignored me.

Well, people spend money on different hobbies and pursuits. No two people are alike. And our interests change with time too.

 

[OldShooter]

Overclocking is an interesting issue. The way the manufacturing works is this:

As processors come off the tester, they are binned according to speed. They are then marked with a slightly conservative number and sold.

But demand for the various bins doesn't necessarily match the distribution coming off the testers, especially when a processor is in mature production and has maybe undergone a couple of "shrinks." The way this is dealt with is that excess faster processors are marked and sold as slower ones.

So "overclocking" may not be overclocking at all. You just never know. You're more likely to win with a more mature processor than with a brand new one.

 

[FIREmenow]

..... so why waste money to get a 'newer and better' one... when I will see zero improvement....

Certainly no need in that case....

 

[NW-Bound]

... "overclocking" may not be overclocking at all. You just never know. You're more likely to win with a more mature processor than with a brand new one.

The problem is when overclocking, one may not know what margin he has left. My PC ran fine for a few years and never overheated, so I did not know. And solid state devices are not supposed to wear out, so I did not realize that after a few years, the CPU was getting "weak".

I guess I could have experimented further initially by keeping to up the clock until it failed, then backing off a certain percentage. That would have taken more work.

 

[NW-Bound]

Back on what the OP wrote:

For those of us who are fairly frugal by nature (and I suspect that might be the majority of us), have you given much thought to the idea that hanging on to older things as long as possible before “tossing & replacing” can actually run counter to the goal of getting maximum value for your money?

Yes, keeping old things may end up costing more money.

Case in point: When I finally replaced my pool pump, it was more than 30-year-old. I would have saved a lot of money on the electric bill had I replaced it earlier.

During that 30 years, I replaced the motor twice. The impeller and its housing were original. Eventually, it became so worn out that it no longer moved water! At that point, I had to replace it.

It was not just money, but I was too lazy to replace it. Thinking back, the worn-out pump was getting less and less efficient, and I was spending a lot of electricity without getting much water moving. And the new variable speed pump was so quiet! That older pump was getting louder and louder with age, and it was gradual so I did not realize that it was not supposed to be so noisy.

After 1 year with the new pump, I remember looking at my power bill, and saw that I saved something like $300 a year. The new pump pays for itself in 3 years. And the lack of noise is priceless.

 

[Lsbcal]

The problem is when overclocking, one may not know what margin he has left. My PC ran fine for a few years and never overheated, so I did not know. And solid state devices are not supposed to wear out, so I did not realize that after a few years, the CPU was getting "weak".

I guess I could have experimented further initially by keeping to up the clock until it failed, then backing off a certain percentage. That would have taken more work.

Why go beyond the specs? There are design guidelines people follow for semiconductors. Things like electro-migration can become an issue too. That is not something one can just fix after the system starts showing issues.

 

[NW-Bound]

Why go beyond the specs? There are design guidelines people follow for semiconductors. Things like electro-migration can become an issue too. That is not something one can just fix after the system starts showing issues.

People do it for cheap thrills. It is not different than car enthusiasts souping up their cars, or tweaking the ECU, etc...

I just don't care to do any of the above any more.

 

[Sojourner]

When I finally replaced my pool pump, it was more than 30-year-old. I would have saved a lot of money on the electric bill had I replaced it earlier. [...]

After 1 year with the new pump, I remember looking at my power bill, and saw that I saved something like $300 a year. The new pump pays for itself in 3 years. And the lack of noise is priceless.

This is a great example of what I was getting at when starting this thread. Sometimes, we become conditioned to the way things are and say "ehh, good enough" without giving much thought to how much better, more efficient, more pleasurable things could be if we spent some money to upgrade. I suspect this is the case especially with things like air conditioners or furnaces, mattresses, washer/dryers, and other appliances. I know for myself, if it's working pretty well and isn't in obvious need of repair, I tend to put off any thoughts of replacing it. But, in the case of my recent A/C and furnace upgrade, the new one is so much more efficient and is so much better at keeping my house cool and comfortable, I kind of cringe when I think of those recent summers I hobbled along with the old one. Because I was trying to wring every last bit of "value" out of the old system, I inadvertently wasted money on excessively high electricity bills and also endured indoor temps several degrees higher than I would have preferred.

Which brings to mind another example. I was traveling over the winter and used Airbnb to stay in someone's condo for about a week. While there, I used their brand new LG clothes washer & dryer a few times. I was amazed at how much better (and more quickly) the dryer did its job than my 20-year old Kenmore dryer, and the washer seemed a bit faster, too. And they were at least 10-15 dB quieter than my current 1997-era set. So I started asking myself, should I ditch the old Kenmores and upgrade? I've been leaning towards upgrading because it's becoming clear to me that my "value break even" point is starting to shift away from holding onto things for so long that I'm often losing out on some tangible, substantial benefits due to much better, more efficient technologies.

 

[W2R]

Which brings to mind another example. I was traveling over the winter and used Airbnb to stay in someone's condo for about a week. While there, I used their brand new LG clothes washer & dryer a few times. I was amazed at how much better (and more quickly) the dryer did its job than my 20-year old Kenmore dryer, and the washer seemed a bit faster, too. And they were at least 10-15 dB quieter than my current 1997-era set. So I started asking myself, should I ditch the old Kenmores and upgrade? I've been leaning towards upgrading because it's becoming clear to me that my "value break even" point is starting to shift away from holding onto things for so long that I'm often losing out on some tangible, substantial benefits due to much better, more efficient technologies.

I love my new oversized LG washer and dryer, that I bought in 2015 from Sears, when I moved. That said, some people much prefer the older style washer with an agitator that uses lots more water. Not me, because my clothes come out cleaner now. For example my new washer removed some old food stains that had been through many washes with my old GE agitator washer. So, I'm convinced.

But I must admit that I have read a lot of complaints, for whatever reasons.

 

[Lsbcal]

... While there, I used their brand new LG clothes washer & dryer a few times. I was amazed at how much better (and more quickly) the dryer did its job than my 20-year old Kenmore dryer, and the washer seemed a bit faster, too. And they were at least 10-15 dB quieter than my current 1997-era set.
...

When I recently read reviews they seemed to indicate that the dryer technology had not gotten much better over the years. I think they were referring to energy savings.

We too have a 20 year old Kenmore dryer. If I could be convinced that a new LG dryer is better then I'd switch.

 

[Which Roger]

When I recently read reviews they seemed to indicate that the dryer technology had not gotten much better over the years. I think they were referring to energy savings.

We too have a 20 year old Kenmore dryer. If I could be convinced that a new LG dryer is better then I'd switch.

Another factor to consider is the way appliances are built these days. Even if the LG is "better", it will likely not live anywhere long enough to see a 20th birthday.

 

[W2R]

Maybe the reason the LG dryer was faster, is that the clothes had less water in them when coming out of the LG washer compared with your washer at home. (?) I have no idea but just thought I'd suggest this.

My LG dryer only takes 41 minutes, and my old 2002 GE washer dryer set took about 90 minutes to dry. But my clothes are not as wet when they go in the dryer.

 

[Lsbcal]

Maybe the reason the LG dryer was faster, is that the clothes had less water in them when coming out of the LG washer compared with your washer at home. (?) I have no idea but just thought I'd suggest this.

My LG dryer only takes 41 minutes, and my old 2002 GE washer dryer set took about 90 minutes to dry. But my clothes are not as wet when they go in the dryer.

Of course, it depends on the load size and type and wetness and dryer settings. Most of our loads seem to dry in 40 minutes in the old Kenmore. Generally I'm running our Bosch washer in the fast spin mode.

 

[Clone]

Had a pickup that needed a new set of tires, so I traded it in. I hate buying tires.

It also had 110,000 miles on it. While it was running good, and had no known problems, I flt it was time to trade. In the end, they offered me much more than I would have paid for it, plus lots of incentives and card rebates. I figure this one will last me for many, many years as our usage has dropped considerably.

We are probably also going to trade cars this summer. At the moment, we are flush with cash, and feel that the car is developing a few issues that are worrisome. So that will most likely replace it with a crossover. The car has 120,000 miles on it.

I do not enjoy working on vehicles, and I want to make sure that our vehicles are reliable. We look forward to better backup cameras. The car will have the lane departure and side warning technology. As we plan to drive instead of fly to some vacations, we wanted a more comfortable and technologically up to date road vehicle. The car sits awful low, the next vehicle will be a crossover that is easier to get in and out from.

 

[Sojourner]

Maybe the reason the LG dryer was faster, is that the clothes had less water in them when coming out of the LG washer compared with your washer at home. (?) I have no idea but just thought I'd suggest this.

My LG dryer only takes 41 minutes, and my old 2002 GE washer dryer set took about 90 minutes to dry. But my clothes are not as wet when they go in the dryer.

I'm sure you're right about this, and that's another compelling reason I see to upgrade. Using less water for each wash not only saves on my utility bill, but is environmentally friendly. And I'm certainly looking forward to being able to quickly wash/dry a small load of clothes on short notice when necessary, which is very hard to do with my current setup. My Kenmore dryer takes a minimum of 90 minutes to get most things fully dry, and even longer for thick stuff like jeans.

 

[Lsbcal]

I'm sure you're right about this, and that's another compelling reason I see to upgrade. Using less water for each wash not only saves on my utility bill, but is environmentally friendly. And I'm certainly looking forward to being able to quickly wash/dry a small load of clothes on short notice when necessary, which is very hard to do with my current setup. My Kenmore dryer takes a minimum of 90 minutes to get most things fully dry, and even longer for thick stuff like jeans.

I always air dry my jeans because I'm afraid of shrinkage. Likewise for many shirts, PJ's, etc. I also check the vent every year for buildup of lint as this is a fire hazard I've heard. I think a poorly vented system might also reduce dryer efficiency.

 

[meierlde]

I'm sure you're right about this, and that's another compelling reason I see to upgrade. Using less water for each wash not only saves on my utility bill, but is environmentally friendly. And I'm certainly looking forward to being able to quickly wash/dry a small load of clothes on short notice when necessary, which is very hard to do with my current setup. My Kenmore dryer takes a minimum of 90 minutes to get most things fully dry, and even longer for thick stuff like jeans.

Note there is a simple way to get clothes drier in washers which was suggested in the owners manual of my current top load washer, in particular towels and the like. Give the load an extra spin (the washer has a spin only cycle). This does extract some more water and uses very little energy once the washer is up to speed.