Greenspan is either suffering from senility, or is a dolt.......

You are very correct samclem. I was thinking in simple terms where everyone puts in an equal amount, but everyone wants more than the other guy.

It is scary that 51% of the lowest income people can control Congress, which can get their vote by promising to "redistribute wealth" from the top few %.

As much as i dislike lobbyists and people with power using their connections, in a way it is just offsetting the power of the lower income groups who are able to vote themselves money.

And no, two wrongs don't make a right.


Independent - I'll try to get back to you later, it may take a little time to formulate a reply, but I'll give it a shot.


-ERD50
 
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I almost think it would be better if we went back to a system where you had to own property to have a vote. Without property you don't have the same kind of vested interest in the country that someone who owns a chunk of land has.
 
Hopefully one good thing that will come of this mess is better regulation of the financial industry. Self regulation of professions is still common but has been curbed, for example in the UK, where Dr. Harold Shipman killed over 200 of his patients during a long career. The days of "trust me, I'm a doctor/financier/whatever" are over.
 
I almost think it would be better if we went back to a system where you had to own property to have a vote. Without property you don't have the same kind of vested interest in the country that someone who owns a chunk of land has.

Here's an interesting piece by James Madison on this subject: Property: James Madison, Note to His Speech on the Right of Suffrage

Madison had advocated (at the constitutional convention) requiring property as a condition of suffrage. Twenty-four years later, while editing his notes on the convention, he wrote this to indicate that his thinking had changed over the years.

He recognizes the problem
Who would rely on a fair decision from three individuals if two had an interest in the case opposed to the rights of the third?
which happens to sound like the lions/lambs example.

But also explains the other side of the issue. One observation has been repeated many times, though in our times we tend to say "wealth" instead of "property":

The U. States have a precious advantage also in the actual distribution of property particularly the landed property; and in the universal hope of acquiring property. This latter peculiarity is among the happiest contrasts in their situation to that of the old world, where no anticipated change in this respect, can generally inspire a like sympathy with the rights of property. There may be at present, a Majority of the Nation, who are even freeholders, or the heirs, or aspirants to Freeholds.

He's saying that in the US, wealth is more equally distributed in Europe. Even those who don't have much aspire to have more. They won't vote to "soak the rich" because they already have a little, and they hope to be among the rich someday.

I think the estate tax is a good example. The tax we've got only hits 2% of the estates, so it seems that the other 98% of the people would see a self-interest in keeping it. The numbers are so lopsided this shouldn't be an issue.

But the estate tax is an issue. It seems to me that a lot of people own enough that they can envision the tax being expanded downward to catch them. They also hope to move up the ladder and get into a taxable situation that way.

So I think that maintaining these attitudes is important in avoiding a "soak the rich" policy. We need lots of people who have enough that they are concerned about losing what they have, and lots of people who believe they can move up. It seems that the wider the gap between the middle and the top 1% or 5%, the weaker these beliefs get, and the greater the popularity of spreading the wealth. Of course, the gap has been getting wider.
 
You are very correct samclem. I was thinking in simple terms where everyone puts in an equal amount, but everyone wants more than the other guy.

It is scary that 51% of the lowest income people can control Congress, which can get their vote by promising to "redistribute wealth" from the top few %.

As much as i dislike lobbyists and people with power using their connections, in a way it is just offsetting the power of the lower income groups who are able to vote themselves money.

And no, two wrongs don't make a right.


Independent - I'll try to get back to you later, it may take a little time to formulate a reply, but I'll give it a shot.


-ERD50

it takes 2/3 of the senate to override a filibuster, which means that any bill needs 2/3 support in the senate to pass
 
it takes 2/3 of the senate to override a filibuster, which means that any bill needs 2/3 support in the senate to pass
But that's not at all the same as 67% of the electorate, obviously.
51% of the voters can fill 100% of the senate seats. As long as politicians can win re-election by promising to forcibly take the property of the most productive minority and give it to others, that's what we'll see.

We're getting dangerously close to the Soapbox here, so I'll not go farther.
 
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