Applying for Citizenship by Descent

[EastWest Gal]

Not going to happen for me, although I would be eligible. On my dad's side, my ancestors came over some time in the 1700s so that's a no-go. On my mom's side, both my grandparents were not born in the U.S. However, they came from Russia, so I'm not interested.

 

[FIREd]

I qualify for Swiss citizenship by descent, though I don’t plan on applying for it at this time. I’ve looked into it however and the process seems pretty straight forward.

 

[samcat]

Our sons received German citizenship through their Jewish grandfather who was denied his German citizenship. It was easy and straightforward because we had so much documentation including the ship's manifest saying their grandfather's family were people without a country!

One has his German/EU passport. The other is waiting on his final German papers.

Once the first son did the work, the second was easy.

 

[NXR7]

As a US citizen, what are the drawbacks to doing dual citizenship?

My grandparents on my mother's side both emigrated from Sicily around 1910. I have copies of a few of the docs however the Ellis Island officials seem to have changed the spelling of their last name slightly. I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be.

 

[rodi]

As a US citizen, what are the drawbacks to doing dual citizenship?

My grandparents on my mother's side both emigrated from Sicily around 1910. I have copies of a few of the docs however the Ellis Island officials seem to have changed the spelling of their last name slightly. I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be.

I was worried about negative consequences since I was doing the document gathering for my husband and (then) minor age kids. I checked out taxation and draft - realized that those issues wouldn't be an issue. Obviously tax issues if you live there can be an issue if you earn big bucks... You'd have to file in both countries, but Italy would get the first bite at taxes... there's a threshold that the US doesn't tax if you're taxed as an expat.

All 4 of my husbands grandparents emigrated from Sicily about the same time your grandparents did. Your grandmother might be a harder path, since women could not pass citizenship prior to 1948. Although there are lawsuits going on in Italy for "1948" cases and many are successful. The easier path would be your grandfather.

The other issue to look at closely was if/when your grandparents naturalized as US citizens... If they did it before your mother was born, you're out of luck. If it was after (or not at all) you still have line(s) you can follow. However, if you live in the Philly area, and your grandfather naturalized before your mom was 18, the Philly consulate is flagging these applications for recognition. They are the ONLY consulate that considers it an issue. They currently take the application, but 'hold' it while this issue gets resolved.

I know this stuff because I've been helping several nieces/nephews through the process... Successful applications among the nieces/nephews at the San Francisco consulate, the NYC consulate, and the DC embassy. But 2 are applying at Philly. The one who applied in SF is planning to move to Italy later this year. (He's a teacher, and has learned Italian well enough to teach there.)

There's a facebook group that has a HUGE amount of resources.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dualusitaliancitizenship

The benefits are easier travel within Europe, opportunity to live in the Schengen region with no visa issues. My sons are both considering living and working in Europe when they graduate, and their Italian passports make it simpler.

 

[Alan]

As a US citizen, what are the drawbacks to doing dual citizenship?

My grandparents on my mother's side both emigrated from Sicily around 1910. I have copies of a few of the docs however the Ellis Island officials seem to have changed the spelling of their last name slightly. I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be.

I agree with rodi, there are no real drawbacks that I know of, apart from becoming a citizen of Eritrea, because that is the only other country that has citizen based taxation.

 

[NXR7]

The other issue to look at closely was if/when your grandparents naturalized as US citizens... If they did it before your mother was born, you're out of luck.

Bummer. I have the Petition for Naturalization docs for my grandparents and both of them applied for naturalization less than two years before my mom was born.

Thanks for saving me a lot of time.

 

[rather be in hawaii]

I just got my Canadian certificate of citizenship and passport, thanks to my mother being Canadian. I'm considered Canadian since birth despite being born in the US. Fortunately my mother kept all her documentation. She got her US citizenship near the end of WWII.

I hired Canadian immigration lawyers and I'm glad I did. My mom had different first and last name than her birth certificate, and was divorced from her first husband plus other issues.

The immigration lawyers took care of everything. It took about a year and a half to get my certificate of citizenship and about 5 weeks to get my passport.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Is anyone willing to say how much they paid for a lawyer to help them get citizenship?

 

[savory]

I agree with rodi, there are no real drawbacks that I know of, apart from becoming a citizen of Eritrea, because that is the only other country that has citizen based taxation.

The only red flag I saw was if a problem should occur, the two countries might decide the other country should manage your issue. Consequently, a person could be left with no country advocating for them.

I expect that is a long shot for most of us. However, it I felt I could find myself in a 'situation' where 'my' country might not intervene, I might hesitate to add a citizenship. I considered that concern and decided to move ahead with dual citizenship.

The other key point for me which is the positive is a back door opens if there is a need to move on for healthcare or other issues.

 

[brett]

On the flip side to this I know of two people who renounced their US citizenship purely for convenience/ tax reasons. And another who is starting the process. One was a US baby, the other a US emigrant.

Both have well established 30 year plus lives and careers in other countries with no intention of ever returning to the US. They eventually got tired of submitting US tax returns each year. The inconvinence and the cost.

We were interested in UK citizenship only for the purpose of obtaining EU passports. Second thoughts of course with Brexit and with the subtle move by a number of EU countries to move toward a wealth tax

My father, from Scotland, obtained Canadian citizenship by being British and by joining the Canadian army during WW11. My mother, a British citizen, obtained her Canadian citizenship immediately simply by being a war bride who married a Canadian.

 

[Alan]

The only red flag I saw was if a problem should occur, the two countries might decide the other country should manage your issue. Consequently, a person could be left with no country advocating for them.

I expect that is a long shot for most of us. However, it I felt I could find myself in a 'situation' where 'my' country might not intervene, I might hesitate to add a citizenship. I considered that concern and decided to move ahead with dual citizenship.

The other key point for me which is the positive is a back door opens if there is a need to move on for healthcare or other issues.

It has been a while since I read the dual citizenship section in my passport but it essentially says that if you get into difficulties in a country that you are a citizen of, you can’t expect help from the US embassy of that country. Fortunately I have never up to now had difficulties in a country and had to decide whether to seek help from the UK or US Embassy of that country. If that situation did happen I would seek help from the country I was currently resident in because that is where I would want to get back to if the situation got really serious.

 

[jayanu]

I did find a thread on retirement visas, but that's not so much my interest right now. I'm currently interested in dual citizenship, particularly in an EU country, more just to have for travel and possibly eventual relocation. Has anyone else gotten citizenship from a country they weren't born in and hadn't lived in? Did you do it yourself, or pay one of those services? I'd love to hear about it. I'm considering applying for Polish citizenship through my paternal grandfather (especially since it would mean EU citizenship), so any advice about that in particular would be very welcome.

There are so-called Golden Visa for EU countries where you can invest and get citizenship - many do in Portugal and Spain. USA also has similar program


https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/golden-visa/

 

[Sunset]

It has been a while since I read the dual citizenship section in my passport but it essentially says that if you get into difficulties in a country that you are a citizen of, you can’t expect help from the US embassy of that country. Fortunately I have never up to now had difficulties in a country and had to decide whether to seek help from the UK or US Embassy of that country. If that situation did happen I would seek help from the country I was currently resident in because that is where I would want to get back to if the situation got really serious.

I interpret what you are saying is:

If you get in trouble in the UK, (you are a citizen there), the US will not help you out even though you are a US citizen. If you get in trouble in South Africa, the US will help you.

 

[Sunset]

Several years ago I executed my own application for Canada. I was lucky to have all the paperwork they requested and access to an online site of others applying so I could ask some questions. It cost me $400 to apply for my citizenship card. I have yet to apply for a passport. Last I looked it was at least $400 dollars if memory serves. My only other headache at that time was to find someone who could take a photo in the format required by Canada for my citizenship card.

.......

Close it's less than that if you do it yourself, will also have mailing cost and photo cost.

10-year adult passport (age 16 or over) $260 CDN

 

[Alan]

I interpret what you are saying is:

If you get in trouble in the UK, (you are a citizen there), the US will not help you out even though you are a US citizen. If you get in trouble in South Africa, the US will help you.

That is exactly how I read it. If I walk into the US Embassy in South Africa needing help then, as a US citizen, I would expect them to help or advise me.

 

[brett]

My understanding is that if you hold a UK passport you can also seek assistance from the High Commission or consulate office of other Commonwealth members.....NZ, Aus, Canada, etc

 

[Alan]

My understanding is that if you hold a UK passport you can also seek assistance from the High Commission or consulate office of other Commonwealth members.....NZ, Aus, Canada, etc

Good to know.

 

[rodi]

Bummer. I have the Petition for Naturalization docs for my grandparents and both of them applied for naturalization less than two years before my mom was born.

Thanks for saving me a lot of time.

Don't give up yet. The are several steps on your ancestors path to US citizenship. Internet, petition, and oath/certificate if naturalization. Petition is usually fined a few months before citizenship is granted, but not necessarily. And these ducks can be in different courts. My husband's grandmother filled in Philadelphia county, (petition) but her certificate was issued in federal district court. There was a gap between these two docs. You need to get the certificate of naturalization.

You may still be out of luck, but maybe not...

 

[rodi]

Is anyone willing to say how much they paid for a lawyer to help them get citizenship?

I was DIY for my husband and kids applications. It was probably close to $1k to gather docs, apostilles, translations, etc. No lawyer. It took time to send out document requests and then get them processed (apostilles and translations,) but a lawyer would be charging money for pretty simple tasks.

My niece who recently was recognized used some services to gather the foreign and domestic docs. She spent about $1500 for this. Not a lawyer, just a service. My nephew who is somewhere in the middle of the process, gathered his domestic docs, but used a service to get the Italian birth and marriage certificates. (I just kept sending letters to the comune.)

But they both started with the benefit of my research... They knew c-file docs (UCSIS), comune names, real birth dates (Grandma took 5 years of her age between arriving and becoming a citizen - her birth certificate was hard to find for me because I didn't have the correct birth year.

Applying in the US if you have a clean line, you don't need a lawyer.

If you are filling in Italy because you have a 1948 case it will cost you more. The Facebook group I mentioned has lawyers mentioned that have been successful. That route requires an Italian lawyer.

For applications in the US, with or without a lawyer will take time .. they can't help get the consulate appt. Or get the UCSIS and NARA docs faster.

 

[rodi]

I should add... You need a lawyer if you need to amend docs due to misspellings or errors in ancestors birth/marriage/death docs.

We had to throw away a perfect line because MILs birth certificate was a cluster you-know-what of misspellings and errors. But I'd gotten her parents docs from Sicily, found her parent's naturalization docs first, it was a clean line except for her birth cert. She'd been born at home (not uncommon in the 1920's) and they'd registered the birth after the fact. Her mother (husbands grandmother) had very poor english and had just given birth, so I'm not surprised the errors weren't caught.. MIL's fathers last name (and therefore her last name) was misspelled. Her mother's first name and maiden name were both misspelled. MIL's first name was a variation of the name she used for every official document later. - including her passport, marriage certificate, etc. (That last would have probably been ok, but not the rest.) It would have required a lawyer to amend the birth certificate to correct it all. And some jurisdictions don't let you do it.

The upshot of the process, for Italy, is:
- get birth certs from latest anscestor from Italy. Different comune have different methods. When I did it, it was send a letter with a self addressed envelope and 10 euro in cash to cover postage with your request for an official, long form, international, birth and/or marriage certificate.
- request a search for documents from NARA to get the c-file number of the naturalization docs.
- request your own birth/marriage certificates.
- request your parent's birth/marriage/divorce/death certificates. All marriages, all divorces (if any). You need the parent that isn't part of your line.
- rinse and repeat for any grandparents that are in your line going back to the last ancestor in italy (the one you are claiming through).

Then you wait.... and wait... and wait....

After 2 months, resend requests to italy. Modify the request to broaden potential birth dates. Consider adjacent comune and send requests to them. (One of my husbands grandparents was from the town next door to the town of the other 3. )
(It took me 18 months to get all 4 grandparents docs because paternal grandma fibbed about her age to the family, and maternal grandpa was literally born on the other side of the train tracks as the rest of them.)

When you get your domestic documents - send them off to the secretary of state of the state they were issued to get them apostilled. That's an international notarization sort of.

If you're lucky, you get a NARA response with the c-file number. You take this number and request the naturalization docs from USCIS. (Current wait time is over 200 days. When i was doing it, it was only 2 weeks.)

If you get a NARA nothing found there are steps to request a Certificate of None Existence. (CONE)... I don't remember if this is through NARA (national archives) or USCIS. But if your ancestor didn't naturalize, you need this CONE to show that. I didn't have to do this step.

All of this is the long way of saying - most of the work is just writing letters, putting in online requests, etc. And then waiting. And waiting. And waiting.

You should probably learn how the prenotami system works for getting consulate appointments. Several consulates have serious backlogs and aren't opening appointments... Getting an appointment can take a year of trying online. A lawyer can't help with this. ... and then the appointment is often 2 years out.

OK... too much info, but I'm actively helping the nephew who is in the middle of the process...