Friends are all broke!

[UnrealizedPotential]

I think it takes luck,hard work, and skill to achieve success in anything. The things I am good at in life I find having skill is not enough. A little luck helps and hard work really helps. Finding those three combinations is hard to do. It would not be surprising if at least one is missing at least part of the time in an area of ones life.

Skill IMO cannot really be taught. To a small degree maybe, but that is all. Hard work is reliable because we can control that to a large degree. Luck we can't control but it comes around often enough if we wait for it, if we are patient. I think it is hard to be patient. Most people want whatever it is that they want, they want it now.

 

[Sunset]

It's said money is the root of all evil.......

I normally hear this from debt laden people, who have little in the way of savings.

If they truly believe that saying, then it's best to toss away all that awful $$ as soon as they get some of that evil stuff.

 

[UnrealizedPotential]

Well money is not evil in and of itself. It is maybe kind of a tool that people misuse. Is that fair to say?

 

[scrabbler1]

I attribute my ability to ER at 45 the combination of luck and some good life choices. I was lucky to have worked for my old company at the right time when its ESOP program was taking off. My coworkers had similar luck with regard to the ESOP program. But many of them made different life choices and could not retire although some of them did. Other people I know made similar life choices as I did but didn't have the valuable ESOP program to propel them into ER. And just because you had both things didn't mean you ha to ER, you might still simply want to keep working.


I had both the good life choices and the windfall from the ESOP program together. That enabled me to ER at 45 nine years ago. Was I simply lucky? Partly. But I don't mind if someone says, "lucky you."

 

[Meadbh]

You pointed that out to that person? Gee I bet they really enjoyed that?
I could say something like, “ ya going to school 4 nights a week while holding down a full time job for the whole decade of my 20’s. Getting 3 post grad degrees, working those 70 hour weeks. But what would be the point? I simply say “yes, I am very lucky”. They usually get the picture regardless.

Being an INTJ, I care more about the truth than about people’s enjoyment. I never criticized their decisions, but facts are required to make informed judgments about mine.

 

[CaliforniaMan]

I normally hear this from debt laden people, who have little in the way of savings.

If they truly believe that saying, then it's best to toss away all that awful $$ as soon as they get some of that evil stuff.

Yes I think they do that already, which is why they don't have any of that evil money sitting around in savings .

 

[Danmar]

Being an INTJ, I care more about the truth than about people’s enjoyment. I never criticized their decisions, but facts are required to make informed judgments about mine.

Not sure what an INTJ is but I can guess. I have a different personality. Making people feel uncomfortable doesnt, in the long run, make me feel better. But I acknowledge it takes all types.

 

[jriemerm]

Yeah, as soon as this thread started, it was easy to predict it would likely be dominated by "jumping on" posts putting down folks who don't do well in the financial management area. It's common for many of our members to seemingly enjoy some gossipy put-downs regarding their less financially disciplined friends and relatives........ And so be it.

I think I'm less inclined to do that because (1) I do believe there is a bit less self-determinism in life than many believe and (2) in our own case, DW and I are surrounded by folks who did a better job financially than us! This despite the fact that DW FIRE'd at 55 and I at 58 and we're doing fine financially at 70. We're just aware that we could have done better with careers, investing prowess, budgeting and other life decisions.

Yes. A judgy tendency among some (certainly not all!) on the forum has kept me from getting more involved in discussions here. Many people of excellent character get into economic hard straits and never make it out. There is far more luck involved in retiring early than many here seem to acknowledge.

Luck can be genetic or environmental. There's a lot of luck involved in graduating from college, in getting a degree that proves to be renumerative, in getting a job making enough to plow much of it into savings/investments, and luck--mostly timing--involved in those investments doing well. Certainly there's luck involved in not being wiped out by medical expenses.

For folks with annual incomes in the six figures, or even mid to high five figures, it's usually not that hard, or particularly a sign of great character, to amass a large nest egg allowing for a comfortable early retirement. Good for you if you have managed, but there's no justification for looking down on those making far less who haven't managed.

Myself, I've saved a bit but my primary luck has been that I settled in a job with a decent pension, fully vested at the age of 60 after 30 years on the job. Also paying off my house early and Social Security widower's benefits. I made choices that will allow me to retire in two weeks (!!!), but I also had a lot of lucky breaks. I have nothing but sympathy for the many working stiffs who will retire on a barely sufficient income before 70, or have to become greeters at Walmart to make ends meet.

 

[Milton]

I snicker to myself when I hear the 'poor me' or the 'your so lucky' noise from folks who simply made bad financial decisions or ate themselves into poor health, diabetes etc.

Just more instances of people trying to blame others for their self inflicted problems.

I agree, up to a point.

I worked hard and made sacrifices to achieve FIRE: it didn't just happen. And I (try to) eat a relatively healthy diet, and get regular exercise. At the same time, I appreciate that luck has played a large role too.

So, while I never feel guilty, I don't feel an unbecoming sense of superiority over those who haven't achieved FIRE or are in poor health.

 

[UnrealizedPotential]

Jriemerm,

It's hard to post on a public forum because no one has the benefit of real time reactions. No one can see others facial expressions or can know much else about a person except the words they write. It's impossible to be right 100% of the time when this is the case.

I've had my share of posters who disagree with me. That's fine. No problem. What's not fine is when two posters disagree and they ruin an otherwise good thread. I have been guilty of this myself. So I try not to let that happen and at the same time participate because sitting it out is not much fun for me.

 

[CoolRich59]

"Luck is a dividend of sweat. The more you sweat, the luckier you get. --Ray Kroc

Excellent. This is the quote I was trying to think of.

 

[redduck]

"Luck is a dividend of sweat."

Not another Dividend thread!!!

 

[FIREmenow]

Not another Dividend thread!!!

 

[CoolRich59]

Luck can be genetic or environmental. There's a lot of luck involved in graduating from college, in getting a degree that proves to be renumerative, in getting a job making enough to plow much of it into savings/investments, and luck--mostly timing--involved in those investments doing well. Certainly there's luck involved in not being wiped out by medical expenses.

I'm not looking for an argument, but I could not disagree more.

I grew up in an environment where college was not a consideration. Neither my parents nor my school counselors suggested doing anything except entering the workforce at the end of high school. I decided I did not want to spend my life working in a steel mill and moved away at age 17 to support myself by working at a grocery store in a university town. I started at junior college, then transferred to the university. After graduating and working a couple of years, I went to law school.

Luck had nothing to do with it.

 

[kcowan]

Excellent. This is the quote I was trying to think of.

The other one is by Sam Goldwyn: "The harder I work, the luckier I get!"

Funny I never felt like I worked hard. I guess I enjoyed it too much.

 

[Milton]

For folks with annual incomes in the six figures, or even mid to high five figures, it's usually not that hard, or particularly a sign of great character, to amass a large nest egg allowing for a comfortable early retirement.

Well, I have to take issue with that comment.

It requires a lot of gratification deferment to avoid the 'lifestyle creep' that typically accompanies income increases. Whether we call this a sign of good character, common sense, frugality, etc., it doesn't just happen or fall into one's lap. It is all too easy to spend all that we earn and become used to a high standard of living that is difficult to sustain without a large employment income. That is essentially the whole point of The Millionaire Next Door.

I don't know you or your circumstances. But your previous post implies that you haven't saved much and owe the ability to retire at age 60 - not particularly early, in my subjective opinion - mainly to a DB pension. If that's accurate (and please accept my apologies if it's not), it's unsurprising that you don't understand the many sacrifices required to LBYM and the sheer hard work involved in building a private investment portfolio.

 

[FIREmenow]

I'm not looking for an argument, but I could not disagree more.

I grew up in an environment where college was not a consideration. Neither my parents nor my school counselors suggested doing anything except entering the workforce at the end of high school. I decided I did not want to spend my life working in a steel mill and moved away at age 17 to support myself by working at a grocery store in a university town. I started at junior college, then transferred to the university. After graduating and working a couple of years, I went to law school.

Luck had nothing to do with it.

I'll re-post what I wrote in the other "lucky" thread here http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f29/who-would-have-thought-87573.html:

I made the CHOICE not to smoke pot or do drugs school when all of the other cool kids were
I made the CHOICE not to get anyone pregnant or other things that could destroy my future
I made the CHOICE to sit in the basement of the engineering building night after night at school while everyone else was out partying
I made the CHOICE to work 3 times harder than anyone else at for the last 35 years when it was very easy to slack off and "get by"

DW and I made a DECISION to save 50 to 60% of our income for 30 years, living WELL below our means.
DW and I made a DECISION to raise our family in a 1200sqft house and not buy a $400,000 house when all of our friends were doing so
DW and I made a DECISION not to fly to Cancun and the Bahamas twice a year, every year, like most of our friends did
DW and I made a DECISION not to buy the latest Lexus or Mercedes like most of our friends, and instead drive Scions and Mazdas

I made the CHOICE to spend hours researching and studying investment and retirement strategies while everyone else said I was wasting my time

Every decision I (and we) have made for 35 years has been strategic and carefully-measured -- to get us to where we are now, an approach that both has protection for a minimal lifestyle in times of crisis, as well as a long-term strategy for retiring early.

Yes, luck IS involved, but it is ALSO what you do with that luck, the choices you make, and your determination to achieve a goal.

This in no way belittles anyone else, anyone else's opinions or their goals.

 

[pj.mask]

Someone recently remarked that I was “lucky” to be able to retire early and enjoy the travel and other activities that I do. I pointed out that, while I was fortunate to grow up in a stable household with frugal parents and to be blessed with a modicum of intelligence, I had studied for sixteen years after high school, migrated to two new countries, worked for 32 years, often more than 70 hours per week, lived frugally, and have paid, and continue to pay, a lot of money in taxes...

You sure were lucky to be born with the ability to do all of that. I work with several people who work darn hard but don’t have the intellect to really be successful. I also know some people who are incapable of buckling down to hard work as they weren’t born with the emotional strength to do so (they acknowledge it as a personality issue but get too “stressed out” with basic responsibilities that they essentially freeze up and can’t function.

I agree that hard work is required to be successful (most of the time) but disagree that everyone is capable of the same level of success.

I personally believe most of the people here are lucky for their capabilities/temperament and hard working is required to turn those into accomplishments.

 

[ChiliPepr]

Then there is the venerable, "Luck is a matter of preparation meeting opportunity."

A couple more I like:

"Luck is a dividend of sweat. The more you sweat, the luckier you get. --Ray Kroc

and

"Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure." --Earl Wilson

The other one is by Sam Goldwyn: "The harder I work, the luckier I get!"

Funny I never felt like I worked hard. I guess I enjoyed it too much.

Didn't you know, it has nothing to do with hard work, skill and preparation! If you are performing better and at a higher level than your peers, you must be lucky, cheating or have the refs on your side!

Wait, this is the NFL thread about the Patriots, right?

 

[Milton]

My two cents

This thread is becoming lengthy and perhaps a bit controversial. I sincerely hope that no officious moderator is going to take it upon him or herself to jump in and close further discussion.

I never understand why Big Brother to feels the need to shut down disagreements. The latter help us avoid 'group think' and are an opportunity for reflection and learning. Of course, discussions have to be respectful but that is another matter: if one or more posters say something obnoxious, or indulge in personal attacks - neither of which I have seen on this thread - the remedy should be to warn or discipline those individuals, not to stop the entire discussion.

Sorry for the momentary thread drift.

 

[Starsky]

All the great choices in the world can't always overcome the circumstances people find themselves in. The starting line is different for everyone, as is the path. Along the way, one unforeseen event can wipe you out.

If U.S. income stats are accurate, the average wage-earner is lucky to save any money at the end of the year. The top 10% of wage-earners own 81% of all stock shares. The bottom 80% own 8%. Not a recipe for most workers to have much to show for their years of work.

Give thanks for our good fortune - self-made or otherwise. You could have been born in the slums of Calcutta. And then just imagine how alien we must be to all the billionaires at Davos.

 

[FIREmenow]

All the great choices in the world can't always overcome the circumstances people find themselves in. The starting line is different for everyone, as is the path. Along the way, one unforeseen event can wipe you out.

If U.S. income stats are accurate, the average wage-earner is lucky to save any money at the end of the year. The top 10% of wage-earners own 81% of all stock shares. The bottom 80% own 8%. Not a recipe for most workers to have much to show for their years of work.

Give thanks for our good fortune - self-made or otherwise. You could have been born in the slums of Calcutta. And then just imagine how alien we must be to all the billionaires at Davos.

This is where I must get off track when compared to others' views.

Your first paragraph I, and likely anyone else, do not argue with. I am empathetic and try to help every one of them financially and otherwise.

However, I think that the 80% number you quote in your second paragraph are not all made up of those people - not even close. I would venture that MOST of those 80% have made poor choices, and not had "bad luck". Its an unfair comparison to make in the same context, IMHO.

And yes, I give thanks every day.

 

[RobbieB]

I despise hard work, always have. But I did show up and I'm good at what I do.

And I did save some dough all the time I was working so I'm a happily retired millionaire who never worked more than 40 hours a week. Mostly less. As little as I could to get the job done.

That was good enough -

 

[frayne]

All the great choices in the world can't always overcome the circumstances people find themselves in. The starting line is different for everyone, as is the path. Along the way, one unforeseen event can wipe you out.

If U.S. income stats are accurate, the average wage-earner is lucky to save any money at the end of the year. The top 10% of wage-earners own 81% of all stock shares. The bottom 80% own 8%. Not a recipe for most workers to have much to show for their years of work.

Give thanks for our good fortune - self-made or otherwise. You could have been born in the slums of Calcutta. And then just imagine how alien we must be to all the billionaires at Davos.

+1 the birth lottery pretty much determines your starting point in life. Being born in the United States is definitely a big plus. With all that said, when anyone tells me I am lucky I just say I have been very fortunate, having a good job, working hard, saving in order to achieve FIRE and leave it at that. I'm sure some folks with the same options I had would have done better and some would have done worse.

 

[Milton]

You could have been born in the slums of Calcutta.

Like Kolkata's millionaires? Let's be careful not to stereotype.

See also Meet India's First-generation Billionaires.