Giving up US citizenship

[haha]

o.uk

Apparently there are other British "non-doms" who quite legally serve in parliament.

So, I am now thinking the USA is right to tax its citizens wherever they live.

I see it more that the UK needs to cut off some of the abuses. This is likely just the usual special deal for the wealthy and or aristocrats.

Ha

 

[Alan]

Lord Ashcroft is an example of how political parties subjugate ideology and core values for financial support. Similar examples in US politics are too numerous to list.

I see it more that the UK needs to cut off some of the abuses. This is likely just the usual special deal for the wealthy and or aristocrats.

Ha

I absolutely agree with you guys.

Not sure.... but why would your UK earning not be taxed in the UK

But... again... reaching back in my memory... I don't think the UK taxes cap gains and possibly some other items... maybe this is what you are receiving.


I have not looked into this... but I do believe that if you are not a citizen you do not have to pay taxes on your income earned elsewhere... now, there might be something in there that says you can not bring it into the US... I did taxes for 4 years a LONG time ago... and I never did a tax return on someone with a green card that did not get all their income from the US... so no experience here...

It is to do with the tax treaty between the 2 countries that I am not taxed on my UK income but pay the (lower) US taxes.

What I had to do was apply to the IRS for a certificate (Form 6166) which shows that I am a US taxpayer (cost me $35) and then complete the UK Inland Revenue form to stop the UK taxes being withheld.

I get paid once a month and the interest payments are also every month so I record the payments and the exchange rate on the day and calculate the $ income which is then reported on my US tax return.

1. Purpose of form US/Individual 2002​

Form US/Individual 2002 enables you as a resident of the United States to apply under the United Kingdom/​

United States Double Taxation Convention (

SI 2002 Number 2848 which, for taxes withheld at source, has effect from

I May 2003), ​

​

for relief at source from UK income tax on UK-source pensions, (including personal pensions and the​

state retirement pension), incapacity benefit, purchased annuities, royalties ​

​

and interest. You may use the form to​

claim relief in respect of any other income qualifying under Article 22 of the Convention – the ‘Other Income’ article. It also
provides for a claim to repayment of UK income tax in cases where payments of the income have been made with UK tax
deducted.​

2. Evidence of residence in the United States and where to send the completed form​

It is a condition of relief from UK income tax under the terms of the United States/United Kingdom Double Taxation
Convention that the beneficial owner of the income is resident in the United States. Your completed form US/Individual
will therefore need certification by the US Internal Revenue Service as evidence that you are resident in the United States.
Please send the completed form to the ​

​

Internal Revenue Service, US Residency Certification Unit,
PO Box 16347, Philadelphia, PA 19114-0447.


​

​

​

 

[Westernskies]

You forgot Rush Limbaugh

Rush Limbaugh: I'll Leave Country Over Health Bill - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

Hadn't seen this article- but I think we would all be better off if Rush Limbaugh was on a plane out of here tomorrow. Heck, I'd buy his ticket. (one way, in steerage)

 

[NW-Bound]

Hey, what's all this talk about the hypothetical "traitor" Francophile? And why it is more acceptable to emigrate between English speaking countries?

You are not talking about me, I am sure. I have no reasons to renounce my American citizenship. I pay all my taxes, do no crime, and committed very few misdemeanors, like speeding and parking violations. Is it OK for me to like French music, French cognac, and French movies, and French fries? (The French fries might have originated from Belgium, but it's a minor distinction as the Belgian and French are like brothers).

And talk about Francophiles, I have read that Jefferson was one. And Ben Franklin served as ambassador there for a few years, and had good rapport with them. In fact, the ladies of the French court were rather fond of Ben.

PS. And as I posted here a while back, though I have forgotten most of my French I learned it first before English, at the age of 6 versus about 12, and neither was my mother tongue.

 

[Alan]

The French fries might have originated from Belgium, but it's a minor distinction as the Belgian and French are like brothers.

I've spent a lot of time in Belgium, and the Flemish half of Belgium are not too enthusiastic about the French. In fact the town we stayed in most often, Leuven, has restaurants where the menus are in Flemish only (no English or French translations).

But the food and beer is great regardless of what language it is served in

 

[NW-Bound]

OK. The Flemish are more like BIL to the French. We have not been to Leuven, only to Bruxelles, Bruges, and Ostend, the last because of a mention of its name in the song "Il pleut sur Bruxelles" sung by Dalida as a homage to Jacques Brel. Being a romantic, when I like a song, I want to visit the places mentioned in it.

Another trip that I recall fondly. Oh, the beers, and "moules et frites".

 

[NW-Bound]

OK. Here's the aforementioned song, with the French lyrics. I won't bother to translate, as much of the lyrics were taken from popular songs written and sung by Jacques Brel, and it would not mean much if you do not know these.

YouTube - Il pleut sur Bruxelles Dalida (Paroles)

 

[Alan]

Nice song - thanks.

Our company HQ for the business within Megacorp that I worked for is in Everberg and Leuven was a much easier drive than Brussels, and it is a beautiful cathederal city if you ever get a chance to visit.

We had a week in Bruges once during which we were broken into 6 groups working on different aspects of a big IT project and one thing that was very obvious is that many of my Belgian, non-flemish, collegues hold something against the Dutch because every few minutes someone would come in and give us an update on the Holland v Italy soccer game. It was pointed out that they support any team that is playing against Holland.

 

[Westernskies]

Nice song - thanks.

Our company HQ for the business within Megacorp that I worked for is in Everberg and Leuven was a much easier drive than Brussels, and it is a beautiful cathederal city if you ever get a chance to visit.

We had a week in Bruges once during which we were broken into 6 groups working on different aspects of a big IT project and one thing that was very obvious is that many of my Belgian, non-flemish, collegues hold something against the Dutch because every few minutes someone would come in and give us an update on the Holland v Italy soccer game. It was pointed out that they support any team that is playing against Holland.

In the late 90's I used to travel to Bruges every 6-8 weeks on business. It is a great little town, one of my favorite destinations in Europe. How it survived WWII unscathed is one of life's mysteries. We also had a small manufacturing plant in Holland, I used to travel between locations, so I understand what you mean about the Belgian-Dutch rivalry (which, oddly, was mostly one-sided...)

 

[Lily Song]

Sigh~~~There are so many Chinese dreaming to become American Citizen, while some
Americans want to give up their rights! Is America like a Fort Noxis, the persons inside want to get out and the outside ones want to get in?

In my opinion, travelling around is great. But you don't need to give up the citizenship.

 

[Alan]

Sigh~~~There are so many Chinese dreaming to become American Citizen, while some
Americans want to give up their rights! Is America like a Fort Noxis, the persons inside want to get out and the outside ones want to get in?

In my opinion, travelling around is great. But you don't need to give up the citizenship.

Hi Lily, Welcome to the ER.org community.

The amount of folks giving up US citizenship to avoid paying US taxes is only a few hundred per year, a mere drop in the bucket.

The vast majority, including those of us who worked hard at becoming US citizens, would never dream of giving it up just to save money.

 

[M Paquette]

There are a few cases where it can make sense. Consider an American couple living in Switzerland, with long term positions in Geneva. They have a child (three, actually) who are US citizens by birthright. The parents obtain US passports for the children, who travel to the US every year or two to visit relatives. The children grow up in Switzerland, attending Swiss schools.

At passport renewal time (5 years), the children have to obtain US social security numbers per Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 6039E) for their passports. The U.S. Department of State provides the SSN and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury, for tax collection purposes. Eventually, the children grow up, and take jobs in Geneva.

While they may not be aware of this, they now owe taxes to the US Treasury Department, in spite of having been in the US perhaps 2 months out of their entire life, and being effectively Swiss nationals paying Swiss taxes for their Swiss employment. Failure to file and pay to the US Treasury leaves them susceptible to arrest should they ever be on a flight that touches a US port.

This is a case where the risks and complexity may outweigh any benefits for the individuals, who consider themselves to be Swiss. Giving up US citizenship removes complexity, removes the risk of accidental violation of laws and regulations of a country they are unfamiliar with, and avoids some emotional distress when they start getting strange mail from the IRS, and get called in by their Swiss bank to sign a US IRS W-9 form.

 

[Alan]

There are a few cases where it can make sense. Consider an American couple living in Switzerland, with long term positions in Geneva. They have a child (three, actually) who are US citizens by birthright. The parents obtain US passports for the children, who travel to the US every year or two to visit relatives. The children grow up in Switzerland, attending Swiss schools.

At passport renewal time (5 years), the children have to obtain US social security numbers per Section 6039E of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 6039E) for their passports. The U.S. Department of State provides the SSN and foreign residence information to the Department of Treasury, for tax collection purposes. Eventually, the children grow up, and take jobs in Geneva.

While they may not be aware of this, they now owe taxes to the US Treasury Department, in spite of having been in the US perhaps 2 months out of their entire life, and being effectively Swiss nationals paying Swiss taxes for their Swiss employment. Failure to file and pay to the US Treasury leaves them susceptible to arrest should they ever be on a flight that touches a US port.

This is a case where the risks and complexity may outweigh any benefits for the individuals, who consider themselves to be Swiss. Giving up US citizenship removes complexity, removes the risk of accidental violation of laws and regulations of a country they are unfamiliar with, and avoids some emotional distress when they start getting strange mail from the IRS, and get called in by their Swiss bank to sign a US IRS W-9 form.

I think this definitely is a case where one would want to give up US citizenship.

 

[NW-Bound]

Home is where one lives.

 

[haha]

This is an interesting thread. 64 posts on a topic that would be very unlikely to ever affect any of us.

Ha

 

[Westernskies]

This is an interesting thread. 64 posts on a topic that would be very unlikely to ever affect any of us.

Ha

Not much else going on right now...

 

[NW-Bound]

After nearly 35,000 threads and 670,000 posts, we tend to run out of rocks that have not been turned over.

 

[Danmar]

I find it a little hard to understand also. Renounce citizenship is not the same as denounce America. Even if it were, who thinks that America is his family? Yecch!

People would be happier if they saved their passion for the bedroom, and realized that much else is just business.

Ha

Agree. US not the only great country to live in. Many posters imply it is.

 

[utrecht]

This thread has nothing to do with which countries are great to live in.

 

[Westernskies]

This thread has nothing to do with which countries are great to live in.

+1

 

[pedorrero]

Loyalty to one's country (the USA) can be either good -- or bad.

If you detach yourself from the flag, apple pie, and other non-legal grounds, the fact remains that for SOME PEOPLE it makes sense to renounce your citizenship. John Templeton (is he still alive) of the same named fund family did this decades ago for (I think) tax purposes. If you are high-wealth, it might make sense to be someone else's citizen.

In favor of being a US citizen: on the other hand, there are lots of wealthy people living here who seem to like it fine. As greedy and far-reaching as the U.S. system is, most of the rest of the world is much worse in most standards, and the few places that are "better" (friendlier to the super-rich) are quite choosy about granting citizenship: Switzerland comes to mind. If you're rich, you can live there, but get citizenship? Good luck!

In contrast, the attraction of the USA to immigrants is a mixed blessing, probably bordering on a "curse." IN MY OPINION, most of the people who enter the USA with intent to stay (note I didn't say "stay legally") are a net drain on our country. I know, "they take the jobs no one else wants," etc. Bullshit. I say kick out all the illegals, pay U.S. citizens whatever wage is needed to do a job, and let's reduce the problems poverty creates for us. We already have enough "citizens" who have no marketable skills, breed kids like rabbits, and without whom the country would be better off without if they'd never existed.

 

[DoingHomework]

So here's a hypothetical question:

If it were legal to sell your citizenship, what would you charge? And don't say there is not enough money to get you to do that because I'm quite certain that if teh going rate were, say, $25 million, most US citizens would gladly sell, and there are plenty of foreigners who would buy. I'm not talking about something illegal here where you'd have to look over your shoulder forever. How much would you charge if you could legally sell your citizenship to someone and then live in some tropical locale for the rest of your life spending the money you received? You can still visit the US freely like any foreigner

Very tough question for me but I'd say it is somewhere around $10 million.

 

[easysurfer]

I think I'd only sell my citizen as a last resort. That is, if I couldn't survive without doing that. I suppose, that is why folks flee their home country. Not for money, but from necessity.

 

[Rustic23]

I can not think of an amount I would sell my U.S. citizenship for. Sorry, but I went through some really big numbers, 1 billion even. Of course, you have to realize it would mean giving up Texas, and that just ain't going to happen!

DW and I have the home of our dreams, money enough to do what ever we want, as we don't want much, and this country means that much to me.

 

[W2R]

Not for sale. Neither are my heart or my liver any time soon.