Protein will kill you ...

[Cool Dood]

CT and CD, let me simply suggest that you get yourselves to a library and check out a copy of the book (called the China Study, in case you missed the original post), and then make your own call.

Well, chances are good that I won't get around to reading a long book on a topic where even if I'm technically wrong I would consider the opportunity cost of eating "right" far too high for any health benefits. If you can show me a Wikipedia page, though...

1) Consumers are confused about the health effects of diet. There's lots of blame to spread around, and he does a pretty good job. He also points out flaws in the studies that "prove" how various things are good or bad for you (the root of much of our confusion).

Yes, I think it's pretty well established that any "conclusively proven" health effect of a diet is complete bunk.

2) We're brainwashed to believe that drugs and modern medicine will provide a short-cut to health. He stresses whole foods rather than the traditional reductionist approach to isolated compounds, drugs, and brute-force surgeries.

Why should "whole foods" provide a short-cut to health? That's pretty brute-force, and without any causal explanation, and as far as I know without any compelling statistical or other reasons to believe it.

Medicine, on the other hand, is done fairly rigorously and is continuing to evolve at an ever-faster rate. Medicine in twenty years will look nothing like medicine today. If they can do imaging down to a bazillionth of the width of a human hair and create custom molecules on-the-spot that hunt down and kill any bad guys, that makes the whole "nature's way" thing look kind of pointless, doesn't it?

If you have something shorter than a big, fat book, I'd be interested in looking it over (I still work -- the only time I have for serious reading I'll use for things that I'm really dying to read!). I'm open to new views, and generally eager to learn about new things, but so far I haven't heard of anything convincing about diets, and on top of that it'd have to be mega-convincing because I'd rather have some medical problems later on than spend my whole life not enjoying awesome food.

On that note, I'm going to see if I can find some good, delicious food....

 

[wabmester]

If you have something shorter than a big, fat book, I'd be interested in looking it over

That's what I'm here for -- to give you a short-cut so you don't have to read the book, but if you don't at least read the whole thread, I can't really help you. 

The idea of whole foods is that some things work in concert.    You know, like OUR BODIES.    We've been trying the simpler reductionist approach for a long time, and it works great for some things, but it hasn't worked so hot on complex biological systems and their fuel sources.   Supplements don't work.   Drugs don't work.   Taking arteries out of your leg and putting them in your chest doesn't address the root cause, but it'll keep you ticking for an extra year or two.

We all have short attention spans.   We all want quick cures.    You can avoid doing routine maintenance on your car, get it fixed when it breaks, and get a new one when it's shot.    I don't like that approach for my body (and I can't get a new one when it's shot), so preventative maintenance appeals to me.    If it doesn't appeal to you, then Modern Medicine is ready to make you a cyborg for a few hundred grand.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I'd heard about the okinawa thing before. Now tell me who tied their longevity (or anyones) to diet? Could it be genetic? Lifestyle? Lower pollutants?

Lotsa people want to tie stuff to diet. I'm not so sure that diet even makes it into the top 3 items that determine your overall health and lifespan.


For example, Wab's worried about his tri-g's. So far I've never seen anything conclusive that ties high triglycerides to any health or lifespan issue. Case in point; they run high in my family. My grandfather and my dad's ran over 500. My grandfather lived to his late 80's even though he was an asthmatic smoker who spread bacon fat on his toast for breakfast. My father is 72 and as healthy as a horse, even though his latest tri-g's are almost 500 and they've run to 700.

Mine are a paltry 300. I'll probably drop dead in a month due to excessively low tri-g's for my genetic makeup

 

[Gone4Good]

Lotsa people want to tie stuff to diet.  I'm not so sure that diet even makes it into the top 3 items that determine your overall health and lifespan.

Wahoo!  Pass the bacon!

For example, Wab's worried about his tri-g's.  So far I've never seen anything conclusive that ties high triglycerides to any health or lifespan issue.

Wahoo! Pass the wine!!!!

 

[laurence]

My faith is in the old phrase, "Follow the money". What do insurance companies look for when they perform medical tests for life insurance?

 

[haha]

Here's the thing that separates Campbell and the China Study from the *many* anecdotes in this thread.   Campbell did the study.   The most comprehensive study of the effects of diet on health ever done (so says the blurb, anyway).    Read the book, then decide.

Wab, could you post a reference to the study that underlies this book- the China Study? If I can't find it online, I will read it in the medical library.

Ha

 

[wabmester]

My faith is in the old phrase, "Follow the money".  What do insurance companies look for when they perform medical tests for life insurance? 

We're all self-insuring here, right?   I'm pretty sure insurance companies ask your age, and maybe your height and weight, and then check your credit rating.   They don't really care what your individual risk is, they are playing the odds based on large-scale data.

 

[wabmester]

Wab, could you post a reference to the study that underlies this book- the China Study? If I can't find it online, I will read it in the medical library.

Yeah, I'm too lazy to read the manuscript, but the book was just right. Let me know what you find.

Chen, J, Campbell T C, Li J, et al. Diet, Life-style and mortality in China. A study of the characteristics of 65 counties. Oxford University Press; Cornell University Press; People's Medical Publishing House, 1990.

 

[Cut-Throat]

We're all self-insuring here, right? I'm pretty sure insurance companies ask your age, and maybe your height and weight, and then check your credit rating. They don't really care what your individual risk is, they are playing the odds based on large-scale data.

Oh, yes they care! - I just went through this. They sent a nurse out to our house, took a blood sample, urine sample, blood pressure - the works! - Weighed us! - Measured waistlines. - This was John Hancock!

 

[laurence]

Exactly, did big blood work up on me, Cholesterol, Tri, blood pressure, etc.

 

[veritasophia]

The original study is a huge volume (almost 900 pages). From online reviews it seems like it is just an enormous collection of data with very little interpretation. So unless you are (or were ) a biostatistician good luck digging the relevant info out of it.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yeah, the ins co's wont want you if you're fat or have any condition thats going to require them to pay for any pills.

 

[haha]

I ordered The China Study from my Library, but it has a long wait list. I also intend to look at the monograph.

In poking around the internet, the interesting thing is that in spite of T. Colin Campbell having what sound like high quality bona fides, his book is published by an off brand publishing house, and he spends his time traveling the country giving speeches to groups like "Montgomery County Vegans", or "Meat Out".

I also got to wondering if perhaps there aren't considerable differences between rural China and urban Western countries that go well beyond what they eat. In this regard there was an interesting study some time ago that found that Japanese men who migrated to the USA had lower CHD if they adopted an American diet but maintained Japanese social customs, than if they ate Japanese but otherwise lived American.

Also, there have been many studies over quite a few years on vegetarianism in western countries. There are plenty of women in particular who have been vegetarian their whole lives or almost so. Here is a summary of some of these studies, on 7th Day Adventists and other groups. This paper was presented at a conference of vegetarians .

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/longtermhealthveg.html

It is quite interesting, but it doesn't seem likely that there is going to be a large effect.

Ha

 

[Nords]

Hey, Cut-Throat, as long as you're looking at Okinawa, take a look at the two books in this post:

http://early-retirement.org/forums/index.php?topic=1383.msg20658#msg20658

The Okinawa Diet Plan caused me to add more fish, more tofu, a lot more fresh fruits & veggies, to eat less than satiety, and to eat several smaller meals instead of three big 'uns.

I'm not sure which side of Walford I'm on but it's hard to ignore his results.

 

[wabmester]

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/longtermhealthveg.html

It is quite interesting, but it doesn't seem likely that there is going to be a large effect.

Yup, I've also seen results that suggest that occasional meat eaters have lower mortality rates than vegans.

Some random thoughts:

The meaning of veg*an is different for different people.    The traditional meaning says nothing about refined sugars, for example.

Campbell does talk about the importance of Vitamins D and B12, both of which might be deficient in some traditional veg*an diets.

One of my problems with the book was that it didn't cover mechanisms as much as I would have liked.    The China Study was an ecological study.   Nothing about mechanisms came directly from the study, but they did look at a lot of variables, including environmental factors other than diet.    I haven't looked at the raw data, so I'm taking Campbell's interpretation on faith -- always a dangerous thing to do. 

I've mentioned that the book has its share of conspiracy theories, including stories of mainstream scientists and MD's who want to silence the pro-veggie talk.   That sort of stuff always sets off my BS detector, so I think skepticism is warranted.

Even if Campbell is basically right, it's clear that we still have a lot to learn.   No way is this the Last Word on diet/health.