Reality Check Needed

slightly off topic, but maybe whats so awesome about the area is that you arent looking at a bunch of cabins, utilties roads ect that are being suggested here. If you just buy the land and use it for camping etc that would cut down dramatically on the cost associated with your plan and keep the place beautiful.
 
Forget it.

Since you won't be able to use it for 20 years, except to go there and look at the view now and then (which you can do without purchasing it), you need to look at it for what it is: an investment. In that case, you should evaluate whether it is a good investment or not. Whether it's beautiful or smells good is not an issue.

If it's not a good investment, forget it. There are millions of beautiful lots, there is no way that this is the only one that will make you happy. You can find something else in 20 years if you are still interested.

The financial dreams of many are destroyed when they fall in love with a house, and just have to have it. They know there they will never find anything else as nice.

This consequences of this decision could dwarf those of many of your other financial decisions -- don't make it based on emotion.
 
TromboneAl said:
Forget it.

Since you won't be able to use it for 20 years, except to go there and look at the view now and then (which you can do without purchasing it), you need to look at it for what it is: an investment. In that case, you should evaluate whether it is a good investment or not. Whether it's beautiful or smells good is not an issue.

If it's not a good investment, forget it. There are millions of beautiful lots, there is no way that this is the only one that will make you happy. You can find something else in 20 years if you are still interested.

The financial dreams of many are destroyed when they fall in love with a house, and just have to have it. They know there they will never find anything else as nice.

This consequences of this decision could dwarf those of many of your other financial decisions -- don't make it based on emotion.
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ITA with Al, who knows what your retirement needs/goals/situation will be & it will detract from achieving FI. I have met many retired peeps that still hold their "retirement Land" and never use it or need it when they are FIRED, because so much has changed in their lives and perspectives since they purchased the land.
 
I am 36 years old

For the most part I am pretty good at deferring pleasure opting to save now and enjoy later. This opportunity has presented itself and I am seriously considering trying to nab this slice of real estate heaven (can you tell I admire it). Am I crazy for wanting to buy this land knowing that other investments will probably have better returns over the next 30 years? I know I am emotionally connected to this issue but should I allow the emotions to be part of my decision or just let the logical/calculated logic drive my decision? Any advice for someone like me who's facing a decision like this?
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Is this property intended to be a potential post-kids FIRE full time destination or a second home type getaway location? Big difference.

Your age is an asset. The opportunity cost is x additional years of work. That might be a good deal if you get an additional FIRE option or if x is not a big number. It also might be an getaway location that limits your family vacation capacity.
 
I'm a believer in the adage that there is no such thing as a "once in a lifetime" opportunity. If you turn it down you may lose that parcel but there will be others, or you'll stumble on to the boat of your dreams, or your tastes will drift and you'll buy remote beach property, or a financial downturn will make you glad you still have the money, etc.

Not saying you should or should not buy it, but with a family in an uncertain future, be careful. Buying it and then stressing out for decades will not make you happy. If you feel you can swing it and get by nicely and securely great. If not, don't get seduced - there are always new opportunities down the road, maybe even better.
 
For some reason I have you living on an island off the coast of Brazil....Are you in the states? If you haven't seen the land in 10 years you need to see it again; when a kid, Bazooka Double Bubble was the best flavour in the world - sometime later it was gawdawful. Could be that area is all built up now or the views are of the new powerlines & wrecking yard. That said, if it is still what you remember and you still want it - buy it. Lots of views and land out there, but if a place is perfect for you - grab it. You can always start another discussion board to pay for it, right?
 
For me anyway, one of life's thinnest pleasures is owning a beautiful piece of land. I have not always felt that way, which brings up the issue that not only do times and circumstances change, so does one's own self. Of all the things I thought would be just right for me over the years, only two would pass the screen today, as I am and and as my circumstances are now. Living right where I do live, or in a similar set-up no more than a few miles away, or going back to whatever LA Beach City I found both affordable and still appealing.

The rest, happy as I was when I was there and living that life, I couldn't be forced to do today. A foot cannot be put into the same river twice.

This may not apply to you in any way, but then it may.

Ha
 
Sometimes you just have to close yer eyes and jump.

If you do, I'm up for organizing the 1st annual 'Camp at Andys' e-r.org bash. :)
 
Hmm...I don't know. It sounds wonderful being a dream come true, etc. but this time span of 20 years sounds sooooo long away. I don't think I'd be able to commit to such a deal.
 
I have some thoughts:

1) Four pillars style, sit down and do the math. What will it cost you on average to vacation there; vs your normal vacation? How does it affect your ER date and 4% plan... how many years of work does it add. Etc.
2) What developments have gone on around it lately? Have you kept up with the local news; is there going to be some development that will soon ruin it? My uncle built a beautiful house into a hill just out of a large forest. He had a waterfall running around the side and down the hill to a coy pond. Then some guy bought the forest and leveled it.
3) Back to math for a sec... how many of your yearly vacation(s) will now be retreat vacations.. how much will this save or cost you?
4) Could you timeshare it or rent it out?
 
I'm afraid I'm in the "no" camp, because a lot can change in your life between now and when you expect to be able to use this property. Priorities may be completely different in the future.
As you know, there are many many beautiful places in the world and you may find that you don't want to trade the chance to take your family to see them for just going to visit this one place.
 
Hi Andy,

A few weeks ago, we closed on a log cabin in the mountains in WV. The price was right, I love the cabin and the town it's in, and it gives us a weekend place for now, a retirement place later. Paying the mortgage means we will be saving quite a bit less a month than we are now, but....

I had come to the conclusion that I will have to work a few more years than I had been planning because of health insurance restrictions (I'm a fed). Even with the mortgage, working the extra 4 years (til I am 57) means that I should be able to comfortably retire then even with reduced monthly savings.

When I eventually sell my townhouse, it will pay off both mortgages, and we'll have a place to retire. So, I figure it's a good trade. Plus, we get to enjoy it now as well - we spent the last two weekends out there, and sitting on the deck at night watching the stars with a glass of wine just brought a calm over me that is hard to value.

It is a big decision; but there are always trade-offs in life. You shouldn't live now always waiting for the future; you have to balance enough enjoyment now with the prospects of future enjoyment later.

My opinion: go for it!
 
kaudrey said:
A few weeks ago, we closed on a log cabin in the mountains in WV...
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Congrats on your purchase. I just looked through your thread. With a short drive of less than 2 hrs to get to it, I am sure you will enjoy it.

With Andy's lot, the greater distance is something for him to think about. Still, if the price is right, it may make a good investment, particularly when RE market is cool like it is now.
 
I would give very heavy weight to your thread title and your signature line. For me, it would be a no, but I am a very different person from you.

Some random thoughts: Have you been allocating money for it these ten years? How do the casinos affect the ambiance, smoke-filled :), ugly architecture? “I LOVED it up there, in the Aspen trees with the pure clean air.... When I stand there and breath the fresh mountain air and take in the view I am so content, it's magical.” But you left! Do you live in a beautiful place now? Sounds like a wonderful place to vacation but are you prepared to spend all or most or much of your free time there? How would it be maintained in your absence? What are the odds that it can be made into a state, regional or local park?

Sometimes, to relax, I imagine an idyllic place from my childhood, soon my mind wonders to appreciating the place I live now. I’ve moved many times but never lived in a place that was not astonishingly beautiful.
 
Lots of great feedback and excellent things to consider. I'd have to write an essay to answer them all and I don't have the time right now. This predicament is helping me really think through some things which was part of the reason for starting this thread.

In my heart I want to move back to Colorado but we intentionally moved back to Texas to be near my parents while we have young children. It's not that I hate Texas, it's just flat, hot and strip mall paradise. On the plus side the cost of living is excellent and everything is very convenient. So this decision has caused my wife and I to think about where we really want to live and what kind of lifestyle we want to have with our kids. Lots of stuff to think about, that's for sure.
 
REWahoo said:
You'll likely always regret passing it up. Life isn't simply about making the best monetary choice every time. No way to know in advance if some other investment might turn out better in the long run, but how do you put an opportunity cost on living your dream? Many folks never get the chance to do what you are considering.

Buy it.
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On this issue, I totally agree with the above: " Life isn't simply about making the best monetary choice every time." I couldn't have said it better myself.

You're young. You have years and years to make more money. Why, heck, you can do alot of saving and making money in just 15 years if you work at it.
I say, go for it, also.;)

When you get to be older like me, you'll find out how few people ever get to have a dream "anything" and be glad you did.
 
Andy R said:
...In my heart I want to move back to Colorado but we intentionally moved back to Texas to be near my parents while we have young children. It's not that I hate Texas, it's just flat, hot and strip mall paradise. On the plus side the cost of living is excellent and everything is very convenient. So this decision has caused my wife and I to think about where we really want to live and what kind of lifestyle we want to have with our kids. Lots of stuff to think about, that's for sure.
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Aww rats. I already had a bead on a list of places to get my propane filled and area wineries..... :(
 
Andy, if you are still on the fence, here's a little slice of Colorado to help you make up your mind...
 

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I would look at it as both a life opportunity and a FIRE opportunity. You said you would eventually like to build a small cabin on the property. If you put the money down to purchase this lot now and focus on paying off your existing mortgage by the time you FIRE, you could use the sale of your current home to fund the building of the cabin with additional capital left over (I'm guessing on the size of your current home ad the size of the cabin you'd like to build.)

This way you would maintain a mortgage free lifestyle as well as have additional capital. Not to mention utilities would be less in a smaller place and you stated taxes would be less as well. Think of it as your retirement spot. Use it as a vacation getaway spot now (keep in mind the money you would save from flying across the nation for other vacations). When it comes time to FIRE, your expenses will be less by living in your getaway/FIRE property.

Just my $.02
 
Andy R said:
I need a reality check from some of the wise folks on here (comments from the less wise also appreciated).
Dilemma: 10 years ago I lived in a cabin at the top of a mountain in Gilpin County, Colorado. I LOVED it up there, in the Aspen trees with the pure clean air. I used to stop at this one piece of land which had a short hiking trail out to this amazing knoll where there were 235 degree views of the continental divide. IMO, it was the best view and building site I have ever seen. I dreamed about owning this land and building a small cabin.
For the most part I am pretty good at deferring pleasure opting to save now and enjoy later. This opportunity has presented itself and I am seriously considering trying to nab this slice of real estate heaven (can you tell I admire it). Am I crazy for wanting to buy this land knowing that other investments will probably have better returns over the next 30 years? I know I am emotionally connected to this issue but should I allow the emotions to be part of my decision or just let the logical/calculated logic drive my decision? Any advice for someone like me who's facing a decision like this?
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Reality check? You bet. I don't have the answers but I have lots of questions to consider.

Are you really in love with the property itself? Or are you more in love with your memories of the way it made you feel, what it represented at that time of your life, and the warm glow of today's sentiments? Or are you more in love with the idea of being able to conceive a plan and carry it to fruition across all of those years? Or are you a bit [-]baby sleep deprived[/-] burned out on your current life and in love with the romantic images of "carpe diem", "follow your dreams", and "jump in with both feet"?

How many more years are you willing to postpone your ER for this dead equity?

Two sea stories:
1. Thousands of unmarried childless Navy ensigns pass through initial training and their first sea tours in areas like Norfolk & Pensacola. The country is easy to love, they're major homeports with the potential for many followon tours, and the youngsters have more money at that time of their lives than they've ever had before. So for all the right reasons, they buy a house.

Three years later they move on. Only about 20% of them ever return to those areas, and when they do the property isn't the right place for them to live in-- too small or bad schools or not close enough to spouse's employment or better deals on base housing. For literally decades they pay mortgages and taxes on rental property that loses a little bit each month (but they make it up after 20 years?), sucks up thousands in repairs and property-management fees, and needs a major overhaul every 7-10 years. Add in the usual tenant headaches.

At the end of their careers they retire from active duty and start a civilian career (gee, wonder why they don't have the assets to ER)-- but not in Norfolk or Pensacola.

When they finally retire, they go to live in their dream location in their dream home. By now you can guess that it's not where they've been paying a mortgage & property taxes for all those years. They sell that house to be able to afford their current dream home.

Will your Colorado mountaintop be that type of place for the next 20 years?

2. 20 years ago we Nords couple (childless at the time) found a similarly attractive home. (For those who know the North Shore, it's Alapio Drive on top of Pupukea.) We were so committed that we put down $5K, acquired two mortgages, and had to rent out the basement. Lousy schools and an hour's drive (each way) to Pearl Harbor on a good day. But oh the country and oh what great views.

"Luckily" after eight months of acrimonious negotiations the deal fell through, we lost our $5K, and we never found out what it would be like to watch a $650K home lose half its value. To be fair, after that it rose in value 6x.

Today we live in a dream home with great schools, equally awesome views, and a central location to both the North Shore and the south shore. In other words, it's better than anything we could've imagined 20 years ago. If we'd been homeowners up there (and financially leveraged to the point of bankruptcy) then we never could've afforded to snap up this place. Oh, and our Pupukea life would've been hell while we waited until we could ER to our "dream" home.

Will that Colorado mountaintop be a similar financial millstone around your neck? What will that investment do to your current quality of life?

Sociologists have hypothesized that there are up to 250 perfectly acceptable soulmates for every human. (I didn't get that far in my own research, but I'm willing to accept that it's a pretty big number.) I'd hypothesize that there are at least as many geographic locations with great views and other amenities capable of creating the same feelings you want to enjoy once again... only they don't require you to invest anywhere near as much money over all those years as this Colorado mountaintop. Most of them are probably a lot warmer in the winter, too.

I'm all about deferred gratification, but in this situation it's probably better to focus your human capital and your assets on building the best life you can today for you and your family where you are right now, and not trying to build the home you imagine you'll want in 10-20 years. If you want the property to use for the occasional vacation location (a different type of financial millstone) then that's what you should do. (Good luck with going to the same place for an annual week or two for the next 10-20 years.) But don't count on being the same person in 10-20 years, interested in doing the same thing at the same place, as you are today or as you were all those years ago. Life happens while you're making all these long-range obligations.

But I agree that there is an emotional component to every financial decision, and sometimes the emotional component is judged to be the more important one than the strictly financial logic. You just have to be willing to pay for it. And keep paying.
 
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