Body by Science vs Younger Next Year

[W2R]

HF, you got ã real deal! Do you drive a pickup?

Ha

That would be hard to move even with a pickup, it seems to me! He'd have to tie it down pretty securely. It sure wouldn't fit in an SUV. Maybe it comes apart. Definitely a good deal if he doesn't mind moving it.

I looked at a home gym at Dick's Sporting Goods yesterday with a price that was barely more than the exorbitant cost for delivery.

 

[HFWR]

Yes, have a pickup, but it was disassembled for the move.

 

[Alan]

Very interesting thread - thanks for posting.

I am still in the situation where I enjoy exercise and the "highs" that come with it. I also like variety so even if it was certain that I could get away with one intense weight lifting session per week as described, I'd still continue with my current regime - at least for now.

 

[W2R]

Today at the gym I thought about the high intensity stuff. It turns out that it's easier to think about in the comfort of home, than when actually in the process of lifting something that is already pretty challenging.

I decided that to me, the idea succeeding at a challenging lift is fun. ("I *did* it!) But the idea of adding enough weight to get to where I couldn't possibly move it was majorly icky and would take away a lot of my fun.

So, I decided that high intensity training is not for me. Carry on, guys!

 

[haha]

Today at the gym I thought about the high intensity stuff. It turns out that it's easier to think about in the comfort of home, than when actually in the process of lifting something that is already pretty challenging.

I decided that to me, the idea succeeding at a challenging lift is fun. ("I *did* it!) But the idea of adding enough weight to get to where I couldn't possibly move it was majorly icky and would take away a lot of my fun.

So, I decided that high intensity training is not for me. Carry on, guys!

As usual, a woman cuts through a whole lot of BS.

Please carry on, and keep sharing with the testosterone damaged among us.

Ha

 

[W2R]

As usual, a woman cuts through a whole lot of BS.

Please carry on, and keep sharing with the testosterone damaged among us.

Ha

Aw, thanks!

I'm glad you guys didn't mind hearing a few female points of view on the topic.

 

[donheff]

Hey Beavis, she said, majorly icky. Huh, huh, huh.

 

[TromboneAl]

I did the very slow lifting yesterday, and was only able to do about half my normal repetitions. Whole lotta shaking goin' on. It felt pretty good actually.

 

[donheff]

I did the very slow lifting yesterday, and was only able to do about half my normal repetitions. Whole lotta shaking goin' on. It felt pretty good actually.

Did you take it to the point that you couldn't continue to move the weight? That part is the key. So far, two days after my first HIT set the book's predictions are accurate. I can still feel a degree of soreness in my muscles but not so much that it inhibits activity. I just returned from an hour spinning at the gym (too cold to get outside on the bike). The continuing soreness shows that the muscles were significantly stressed and are still recovering.

 

[TromboneAl]

Did you take it to the point that you couldn't continue to move the weight?

Yes. Instead of buying the book, I just relied on your statement: "continue until you can't move the weight at all for 10 seconds."

 

[HFWR]

Work to failure, or WTF , will require longer recovery times...

 

[donheff]

Yes. Instead of buying the book, I just relied on your statement: "continue until you can't move the weight at all for 10 seconds."

Work to failure, or WTF , will require longer recovery times...

HFWR is right Al. Don't run out and do it again tomorrow. The book is adamant that the research shows that for the average person about once a week is optimal. If you are going back on the weights sooner at least don't push it to failure for a week.

 

[TromboneAl]

Do you get the feeling that good compromise between YNY and BBS is one day a week of slow burn, work to failure weight lifting, and then five days of long-slow aerobics, or does that violate the BBS ideas?

Like:
Sat: Slow burn WTF weight lifting
Sun: Exercise Holiday
Mon: Run
Tues: Bike
Wed: Normal weight lifting
Thurs: Run
Fri: Bike

 

[haha]

Do you get the feeling that good compromise between YNY and BBS is one day a week of slow burn, work to failure weight lifting, and then five days of long-slow aerobics, or does that violate the BBS ideas?

Like:
Sat: Slow burn WTF weight lifting
Sun: Exercise Holiday
Mon: Run
Tues: Bike
Wed: Normal weight lifting
Thurs: Run
Fri: Bike

My feeling is that would be optimal, but only when the moon is in the 7th house, and Mercury aligns with Mars...

But of course yfmv.

Ha

 

[donheff]

Do you get the feeling that good compromise between YNY and BBS is one day a week of slow burn, work to failure weight lifting, and then five days of long-slow aerobics, or does that violate the BBS ideas?

My "feeling" is that would be optimal, but only when the moon is in the 7th house, and Mercury aligns with Mars...

But of course yfmv.

Ha

My feeling exactly In fact I intend to do just that. But I wish there was some easy way to get Doc McGuff to address it in detail.

Edit: I forgot to mention the BBS people don't like running for most people. They think that it damages the joints over the long run.

 

[braumeister]

the BBS people don't like running for most people. They think that it damages the joints over the long run.

Making it an absolute non-starter for me. My morning run is the best part of my day.

 

[Katsmeow]

I have found that what works best for me is one set of about 8-12 reps. Basically when 12 reps becomes easy I move up (I usually use machines but some free weights) and then start at 8 reps and do the cycle over again.

I aim to go 3 days a week (well I took off some time after my trainer left the gym so need to get back into it) but feel fine if I do 2 days of weight training (research is that 3 days is barely more effective than 2).

Then I do cardio in between.

 

[TromboneAl]

Here's an interesting take on fitness: The Characteristics of Hunter-Gatherer Fitness | Mark's Daily Apple

Thanks, HFWR. Here's what the Primal Blueprint for Fitness (PBF) ebook (from that link) says:

How does PBF compare to Body by Science/
Super slow stuff?

I’m a big fan of Doug McGuff’s work. It gets cited
frequently as a sort of refutation of the Primal,
evolutionary-based fitness models, but I don’t see
it that way. What I see is two different protocols re-
lying on very similar physical truths: lift hard and lift
intensely just enough to get strong and fit. That’s it.
Body by Science tends to recommend slower lifts
to failure using complex weight machines; I prefer
more powerful movements, sometimes to fail-
ure, using bodyweight. The tie that binds the two,
though, is intensity of effort and a de-emphasis
on volume. BBS recommends once a week, while
PBF recommends twice a week of Heavy Lifting.
Efficiency of effort is the name of the game.
Where BBS and PBF diverge, I think, is on the defi-
nition of strength itself. What is strength? Is it mus-
cular hypertrophy? BBS is based on maximizing
structural adaptation of the musculature in the
shortest, safest way possible. I’m about maximiz-
ing function—and not just of the muscles, but of the
body as a whole. Training on expensive machines
will get you strong; there’s no question. But I be-
lieve that you can develop agility, speed, and coor-
dination better with real-life movements in the PBF
program—and have more fun while you’re at it!
​

Here's the summarizing graphic from the PBF ebook.

 

[donheff]

I like the PBF triangle Al. I am inclined to adopt it with a minor modification:
1 set of sprints on a stationary bike once a week
1 set of reps using BBS's machine workout (the easy route) once a week
3-4 long bike rides the rest of the week.

I may see if the primal book is at the library to see what their science says. I like the idea of mixing the easy cardio in on a regular basis.

Edit: not at the library yet but the author has a blog called Mark's Daily Apple that I added to my RSS reader.

 

[donheff]

Week 2

OMG! At the end of the final rep (leg press) I almost passed out. Your mind tells you that once you have done a thing the next time will be easier but "to failure" guarantees it to always be as hard as the last time. The book tells you that at the final, futile push of each rep your body will panic and so it does. You feel almost compelled to stop and have to force yourself to take it to failure. Thank goodness this is 15 minutes once a week.

 

[pimpmyretirement]

You may be holding your breath as you approach failure. Doing so can make you light headed or even pass out. It also causes a spike on blood pressure that most doctors suggest avoiding.

Your message does touch on one of the problems I had with HIT.

Each workout will actually be harder, not just as hard. With experience and the proper mindset, momentary failure becomes progressively more intense. Two things to try that will get you further:

1. Association - Embrace the pain, treating it as the goal of the exercise. The more painful, the better. This confuses the pleasure / pain barrier.

2. Dissociation - Mentally check out during the set, disregarding any pain. Try to reset how you feel during each successive rep as "normal". The feeling from your muscles is just another sensation, no different than any other. Focusing on your breathing instead can help, and avoids the tendancy to hold your breath.

There's a story that Arthur Jones, the founder of Nautilus, pulled a gun on someone who insisted they'd reached momentary failure during a set. Turns out with the proper motivation, they could do a few more reps.

 

[donheff]

You may be holding your breath as you approach failure. Doing so can make you light headed or even pass out. It also causes a spike on blood pressure that most doctors suggest avoiding.

Your message does touch on one of the problems I had with HIT.

Each workout will actually be harder, not just as hard. With experience and the proper mindset, momentary failure becomes progressively more intense. Two things to try that will get you further:

1. Association - Embrace the pain, treating it as the goal of the exercise. The more painful, the better. This confuses the pleasure / pain barrier.

2. Dissociation - Mentally check out during the set, disregarding any pain. Try to reset how you feel during each successive rep as "normal". The feeling from your muscles is just another sensation, no different than any other. Focusing on your breathing instead can help, and avoids the tendancy to hold your breath.

There's a story that Arthur Jones, the founder of Nautilus, pulled a gun on someone who insisted they'd reached momentary failure during a set. Turns out with the proper motivation, they could do a few more reps.

As I was heading home I started thinking about breath holding - that is a real possibilty. I think I intuitively applied your association suggestion.

 

[samclem]

Regarding HIT and slow reps to failure: When I did this (some time ago, ahem) it was on some nice high-end machines in the gym. They were very smooth (good bearings=little "stickiness" in the motion) and the cams assured the mechanical advantage was properly distributed over the natural range of motion of the joint. I'm wondering if a typical home machine (cables, no cams, maybe more friction) is going to be as effective for these exercises that rely on very slow reps. Seems (without the cams) you might repeatedly get to failure at the spot in each lift where mechanical advantage is worst, and that (without super smooth bearings) the slow lifts might be tougher to execute.
Will a "regular" home gym work?

 

[donheff]

Regarding HIT and slow reps to failure: When I did this (some time ago, ahem) it was on some nice high-end machines in the gym. They were very smooth (good bearings=little "stickiness" in the motion) and the cams assured the mechanical advantage was properly distributed over the natural range of motion of the joint. I'm wondering if a typical home machine (cables, no cams, maybe more friction) is going to be as effective for these exercises that rely on very slow reps. Seems (without the cams) you might repeatedly get to failure at the spot in each lift where mechanical advantage is worst, and that (without super smooth bearings) the slow lifts might be tougher to execute.
Will a "regular" home gym work?

I suspect you are right. Also, as you increase strength you can get struck at sticking points like you describe. the book outlines several techniques (like partial motion reps) to get past the sticking point. Also, when I got to failure a little too quickly, I dropped down one level on the wieght and continued to failure at the lower weight. I am using high end machines.

 

[ERhoosier]

According to McGuff, the data show that HIT resistance training is more effective once a week and provides the cardio you need for health and fitness. It seems hard to believe for me and I certainly will not stop riding. But if the science bears out, a brief, intense HIT regimen coupled with my bike riding (tossed in for fun and just in case) should be just the ticket.

Right. Even scientists who advocate HIIT do not claim it fully replaces endurance training in providing maximal cardiopulmonary adaptations/benefits. HIIT 1-2x/wk is about right. Doing more chronically risks injury. And repeated low-rep/high resistance (weight) work REALLY increases risk of muscle/joint problems.