Saving money at the clinic

BrianB

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
359
Location
Minneapolis
About two weeks ago I did something to my back. I had serious low back pain, and only felt OK if I was sitting in an upright chair or lying flat on my back. DW said, "Go to the Doctor!" Stubborn me said, "It'll get better!"

After 10 days of Ibuprofen with no improvement I finally conceded. I made an appointment, saw the doctor for about 15 minutes, and left with a prescription for a muscle relaxant. Today we got the EOB (Explanation of Benefits) and the bill: $283 for the visit and prescription. Yikes!

DW worked in health insurance for 20+ years and knows the system, so she helped me to understand and I want to pass along the information. Note that this is general info only, but an informed consumer can save money.

Almost all doctors use "CPT Codes" which are standard definitions for illnesses, injuries, and medical problems. The CPT code is usually on the EOB, you just have to look for it. The most common CPT code people see for an office visit is: 992xy.

The "992" indicates a general office visit.

The variable "x" can be either "0" (new patient) or "1" (patient previously seen in that clinic / department / specialty).

The variable "y" can be "1" (minor) or "2" (low to moderate) or "3" (Moderate) or "4" (moderate to severe), or "5" (severe). These refer to the complexity of the case, not the pain level.

A CPT code of 99211 would be the lowest cost office visit for an established patient (about $100 in our HMO), while 99205 would be the highest cost for a new patient (about $360 in our HMO). Quite a difference!

The CPT code is assigned by a clinic employee, not the doctor, but is based on the doctor's notes. There are significant financial incentives for the clinic to "upcode" (use a code for a more severe case) and "miscode" (bill as a new patient when they are not).

In my case the visit was billed as a "99203". It should have been 99211 or 99212 as I have been to that clinic before and my case wasn't complicated. The price difference is more than $100.

We called the clinic and explained the situation. We are still waiting for the clinic to get back to us but DW is confident we will get the bill reduced. We are fortunate that DW understands the system.

Here is a typical insurance industry chart (this one from Optum) showing how the codes should be assigned: https://www.myoptumhealthphysicalhealth.com/Documents/Reimbursement%20Policies/E_M%20QuickReferenceTable.pdf

By the way, my back is really feeling better now!:dance:
 
Glad you feel better
Speaking as a retired internist:
The coding may be done by the clinician. My practice always worked that way. I coded all my visits

For an established patient if they see a doctor it is at least a 99212. 99211 was for a nurse visit such a bp check where the doctor did not physically see the patient ( though in practice we did those for free). There is a doctor level 1 visit for new patients( 99201) which makes sense as you would expect a new patient to see a clinician
 
I struggle with the whole concept of the way doctors are remunerated. When I spend 3 minutes with my doc, he types on his computer and tells me to come back in 2 weeks (maybe for back pain or a cough, etc.) The bill seems utterly ridiculous for the time spent. I realize that the 3 minutes is not all the time spent and there is overhead. Still, for 3 minutes it shouldn't cost almost $200, MC of course knocks that down to maybe $40 and pays it, but someone without insurance or especially without MC is getting charged $50/minute. That's just not right IMO. YMMV
 
I struggle with the whole concept of the way doctors are remunerated. When I spend 3 minutes with my doc, he types on his computer and tells me to come back in 2 weeks (maybe for back pain or a cough, etc.) The bill seems utterly ridiculous for the time spent. I realize that the 3 minutes is not all the time spent and there is overhead. Still, for 3 minutes it shouldn't cost almost $200, MC of course knocks that down to maybe $40 and pays it, but someone without insurance or especially without MC is getting charged $50/minute. That's just not right IMO. YMMV

+1

It's all about the demands insurance places on the doctors and a huge part of the overhead costs are to support chasing insurance.

Which is why my Doc dropped taking insurance altogether. He charges me $95 a month (for a 12 month contract) and I can see him anytime, call him at home or email/Skype him. He dropped his patient list from 2500 to 650 and now has the time "to be a real doctor instead of an insurance drone" as he puts it.

Last week he spent almost an hour with me going through discussion, a few machines, poking and prodding etc.
 
+1

It's all about the demands insurance places on the doctors and a huge part of the overhead costs are to support chasing insurance.

Which is why my Doc dropped taking insurance altogether. He charges me $95 a month (for a 12 month contract) and I can see him anytime, call him at home or email/Skype him. He dropped his patient list from 2500 to 650 and now has the time "to be a real doctor instead of an insurance drone" as he puts it.

Last week he spent almost an hour with me going through discussion, a few machines, poking and prodding etc.

Sounds great but that would (for me) be on top of what I pay for MC and supplement. I couldn't be without those because of all the other health care costs which could crop up (hospital, emergency, specialists, etc.) Still it sound like a possible wave of the future. Glad it's working for you.
 
+1
Which is why my Doc dropped taking insurance altogether. He charges me $95 a month (for a 12 month contract) and I can see him anytime, call him at home or email/Skype him. He dropped his patient list from 2500 to 650 and now has the time "to be a real doctor instead of an insurance drone" as he puts it.

This is a great deal for the Doc. 650x$95x12=$741,000 per year

Not so great for the average user. You are spending $95x12=$1140 per year. Based on a 2000 hour work year and 650 patients, he can spend about 3 hours with you, per year. $1140/3=$380/hour.

And as stated above, you still need insurance to cover the big stuff.
 
Almost all doctors use "CPT Codes" which are standard definitions for illnesses, injuries, and medical problems.

In my case the visit was billed as a "99203". It should have been 99211 or 99212 as I have been to that clinic before and my case wasn't complicated.
ICD-10 codes define the illness. If you saw a different provider last time (within 3 years), verify the two have the same sub-specialty.

"An established patient is one who has received a professional service from the physician/qualified health care professional or another physician/qualified health care professional of the exact same specialty and sub-specialty who belongs to the same group practice, within the past three years."
 
Last edited:
I go to a wacky dentist. When the patient leaves before he takes the next patient, he hands the file to one of the secretaries and starts YELLING out codes,tooth 11 98767,87926,tooth 16 97611.its hysterical. I bet he is yelling out the most expensive reimbursements.
 
I go to a wacky dentist. When the patient leaves before he takes the next patient, he hands the file to one of the secretaries and starts YELLING out codes,tooth 11 98767,87926,tooth 16 97611.its hysterical. I bet he is yelling out the most expensive reimbursements.
I have a urologist friend who is as honest as the day is long. He & his partners took over coding from their staff and do it themselves because the staff coding errors tended to cost them money. Coding is pretty complicated as there are thousands of choices. I have no doubt that he codes the most lucrative option among the ones that he could legitimately choose from but I also have no doubt that he is honest about it.
 
I have a urologist friend who is as honest as the day is long. He & his partners took over coding from their staff and do it themselves because the staff coding errors tended to cost them money. Coding is pretty complicated as there are thousands of choices. I have no doubt that he codes the most lucrative option among the ones that he could legitimately choose from but I also have no doubt that he is honest about it.

ok, im sure your correct, but if you saw the scene its like a comedy, especially if your seeing it for the first time.
 
I struggle with the whole concept of the way doctors are remunerated. When I spend 3 minutes with my doc, he types on his computer and tells me to come back in 2 weeks (maybe for back pain or a cough, etc.) The bill seems utterly ridiculous for the time spent. I realize that the 3 minutes is not all the time spent and there is overhead. Still, for 3 minutes it shouldn't cost almost $200, MC of course knocks that down to maybe $40 and pays it, but someone without insurance or especially without MC is getting charged $50/minute. That's just not right IMO. YMMV

Agreed - the person who can't get or can't afford insurance gets soaked. Crazy
 
Back
Top Bottom