Self Driving Cars?

[Music Lover]

The downside is that eventually all vehicles will be connected to Big Brother. Your comings and goings could be subject to the restrictions and whimsy of some government agency.

 

[travelover]

The downside is that eventually all vehicles will be connected to Big Brother. Your comings and goings could be subject to the restrictions and whimsy of some government agency.

Good point. I'm just grateful they can't track you via your phone.

 

[Music Lover]

Good point. I'm just grateful they can't track you via your phone.

I fully aware that they can track you via your phone...but, that doesn't make the possibility of government control over the operation of your vehicle any more palatable.

 

[explanade]

I fully aware that they can track you via your phone...but, that doesn't make the possibility of government control over the operation of your vehicle any more palatable.

First of all I don't think they can track you by your phone unless they hack into something like iCloud and use Find My Phone. Or they have physical access to the device and the logs. Even then, people aren't always using GPS.

Second, there seems to be some fatalism about the govt. being able to track or spy on your. Just this week there was a revelation that CIA had hacked into Samsung Smart TVs and may be able to collect things you said which the mic on the TVs picked up. People shrugged, either said I got nothing to hide or they probably know everything about me anyways of if they really want to, they can spy on you.

Well the simple solution is to disconnect the smart TV from the Internet.

For cars, there have been security researchers who've demonstrated it's possible to hack the can bus of the car, especially if it's connected to control systems like steering and braking. But I think accessing the car requires the car be online. Well who's paying for online connectivity for the car? If people are gullible enough to pay for Onstar on an ongoing basis when they already have phones which give them connectivity on their terms, they deserve to be hacked for yielding control to some other party and probably paying for that service.

 

[Midpack]

I fully aware that they can track you via your phone...but, that doesn't make the possibility of government control over the operation of your vehicle any more palatable.

I guess you won't be a rider in a self driving car, that's too bad. I can't wait, I'm not at all concerned about "government control over my vehicle."

 

[travelover]

I fully aware that they can track you via your phone...but, that doesn't make the possibility of government control over the operation of your vehicle any more palatable.

Just carry a roll of aluminum foil and put it over the windshield. That will block the government rays.

 

[harley]

First of all I don't think they can track you by your phone unless they hack into something like iCloud and use Find My Phone. Or they have physical access to the device and the logs. Even then, people aren't always using GPS.

Yeah, well, you'd be wrong about that one. Stingray Tracking Devices.

That's just one we know about. And the police are so invested in keeping it's use secret they will drop charges against people rather than disclose information about using the system. Officials Continue to Dodge Attempts to Disclose Use of Stingrays - Hit & Run : Reason.com

 

[GrayHare]

The downside is that eventually all vehicles will be connected to Big Brother. Your comings and goings could be subject to the restrictions and whimsy of some government agency.

More than that, it makes for easy assassinations.

 

[ERD50]

The downside is that eventually all vehicles will be connected to Big Brother. Your comings and goings could be subject to the restrictions and whimsy of some government agency.

On my list of things that I worry about, that shows up as....

wait, it's not on my list. But asteroids (and hemorrhoids) are.

My biggest concern about any government agency spying on me through my Smart TV is they might sue me for boring them to death.

-ERD50

 

[explanade]

Yeah, well, you'd be wrong about that one. Stingray Tracking Devices.

That's just one we know about. And the police are so invested in keeping it's use secret they will drop charges against people rather than disclose information about using the system. Officials Continue to Dodge Attempts to Disclose Use of Stingrays - Hit & Run : Reason.com

I thought there was a court case that stingray required a court order. Even if it doesn't require an order, it's not a wide net tool. The cops have to target a specific area.

Even then, I'm not convinced they can crack data which uses encryption, such as iMessage to iMessage.

Also, they have to set up stingray in a specific location and in advance of communications which could be incriminating. That communication would be voice or SMS.

But iMessage or other encrypted apps? FBI wanted Apple to crack the iPhone of the San Bernadino shooter's iPhone.

 

[harley]

I thought there was a court case that stingray required a court order. Even if it doesn't require an order, it's not a wide net tool. The cops have to target a specific area.

In some states, probably about a half dozen, stingray use requires a warrant. There are other bills under consideration to make it a requirement, but it's not yet.

Even then, I'm not convinced they can crack data which uses encryption, such as iMessage to iMessage.

True, they can't crack encryption. However, they can remotely implant malware into a specific phone to see everything that happens before the encryption occurs. See the recent WikiLeaks Vault 7 release for more details.

Also, they have to set up stingray in a specific location and in advance of communications which could be incriminating. That communication would be voice or SMS.

But iMessage or other encrypted apps? FBI wanted Apple to crack the iPhone of the San Bernadino shooter's iPhone.

That was the entry code for the iPhone, and they hired a hacker who successfully did it for them. Nothing to do with encryption on that one.

My basic point is that with our own gov't focusing their immense resources on us, we're hosed as far as privacy. Tracking a car is far far down the list of worries for me. They can do that with EZPass, or CCTC, or many other methods. I don't like it any more than you do, but it is what it is.

 

[NW-Bound]

More than that, it makes for easy assassinations.

If somebody killed me, a peon, I would be simply murdered instead of assassinated.

sent to me via email:

How important does a person have to be before they are considered assassinated instead of just murdered?

 

[explanade]

I don't think they can install malware (really jailbreak it so they can install spyware software) through stingray.

Cellbrite, the Israeli company which is suspected of cracking the iPhone in the San Bernadino case, sells its services to law enforcement and other governmental agency. It charges $1500 per unlock and subscription services as well.

However, it's doing so when they have physical access to the device, not doing it over cellular networks or some other remote methods.

But the company was hacked in January and someone released their tools.

 

[Sunset]

I don't think they can get here quick enough. With all of crazies out on the road talking and texting all the time, it gets more dangerous every day. I'd much rather have a 100% dedicated robot driving next to me than some inexperienced teen who thinks he can text and drive simultaneously. Plus, I don't think I'd mind kicking back for a nap while my car gets me to my destination. Driving in my neck of the woods Is not my idea of fun (way too much traffic).

Yes.
I want one.
I can go to CA. from Chicago, traveling during the day, then sleep in my self driving van as it keeps driving. I could read a book, text my friends, write a novel all while I get to my destination.
It will make me independent when I'm too old to be allowed to drive....or too blind... or too drunk .

Extra bonus will be instead of the mile high club, there will be the 60 mph club

I think it will reduce the number of cars on the road, as I can be an Uber driver or rent out my car knowing the car itself does the driving. Who won't rent out their car so it pays for itself, knowing you don't have to worry about a crazy driver harming your car ?

 

[Sunset]

The downside is that eventually all vehicles will be connected to Big Brother. Your comings and goings could be subject to the restrictions and whimsy of some government agency.

They are now in the sense that you can/are constantly tracked.
I know as I interviewed at a company that was doing that, and they claimed it was for traffic flow enhancement.
I told them they should call the FBI/NSA as I'm sure they would want to use the system.
It was already in multiple countries, not a theoretical idea.

 

[harley]

Yes.
I want one.
I can go to CA. from Chicago, traveling during the day, then sleep in my self driving van as it keeps driving. I could read a book, text my friends, write a novel all while I get to my destination.
It will make me independent when I'm too old to be allowed to drive....or too blind... or too drunk .

Extra bonus will be instead of the mile high club, there will be the 60 mph club

I think it will reduce the number of cars on the road, as I can be an Uber driver or rent out my car knowing the car itself does the driving. Who won't rent out their car so it pays for itself, knowing you don't have to worry about a crazy driver harming your car ?

Me. I have a broad definition of personal space. I'm [-]cheap[/-] frugal, but not that much. I would continue to have no problem with buying my own car, maintaining it, garaging it, etc. And I'd keep it for many years, just like now. But other than that, I agree with the reasons for wanting it. They pretty much echo mine.

 

[explanade]

Yes.
I want one.
I can go to CA. from Chicago, traveling during the day, then sleep in my self driving van as it keeps driving. I could read a book, text my friends, write a novel all while I get to my destination.
It will make me independent when I'm too old to be allowed to drive....or too blind... or too drunk .

Extra bonus will be instead of the mile high club, there will be the 60 mph club

I think it will reduce the number of cars on the road, as I can be an Uber driver or rent out my car knowing the car itself does the driving. Who won't rent out their car so it pays for itself, knowing you don't have to worry about a crazy driver harming your car ?

I thought of similar scenarios, including having the car go to recharging or refueling stations when necessary, to allow for extended trips, where you could sleep and wake up hundreds of miles away.

But recently did a road trip and for the first time since I was probably a kid, I rode in the back seat and I tried to do some surfing on iPad and started to get car sick. It was a nice Lexus SUV but in the back, it was a bumpy ride and we just happened to be traveling in the mountains so the car was turning a lot on winding roads.

I would maybe take a train across the country or half way across the country (Chicago to CA) or more likely, I'd take a flight.

 

[Midpack]

Me. I have a broad definition of personal space. I'm [-]cheap[/-] frugal, but not that much. I would continue to have no problem with buying my own car, maintaining it, garaging it, etc. And I'd keep it for many years, just like now. But other than that, I agree with the reasons for wanting it. They pretty much echo mine.

I get your POV, but it sounds like you're assuming level 5 self driving cars will cost the same, or just a nominal premium, over today's range of car prices. I would expect the first few generations of level 5 self driving cars will cost way more than today's level 0-1 manual cars - how's that mesh with "[-]cheap[/-] frugal?"

It may well be that once the technology is mature, the premium isn't that high. But I'd bet it will be decades between the first very expensive level 5 self driving cars and a day when they're priced for mass consumption. I'll be surprised if the car ownership paradigm doesn't change substantially with level 5 self driving cars.

 

[NW-Bound]

Would one buy a Level 5 car when it becomes available, even if it costs $150-200K? Many posters here would when it gives them mobility that they would not otherwise, such as allowing them to do to a doctor or the hospital.

It is within their means, and when they become so invalid, they will realize that they cannot "take it with them". Besides, such a valuable car is an asset that can be passed down as inheritance, so it is not really wasted money.

 

[Midpack]

Would one buy a Level 5 car when it becomes available, even if it costs $150-200K? Many posters here would when it gives them mobility that they would not otherwise, such as allowing them to do to a doctor or the hospital.

It is within their means, and when they become so invalid, they will realize that they cannot "take it with them". Besides, such a valuable car is an asset that can be passed down as inheritance, so it is not really wasted money.

That's pure conjecture. Some or a few at $150-200K, yes. "Many," I doubt it, but it's certainly not a given.

We can only guess - but by the time a level 5 self driving car is within the financial reach of many people, many years if not decades may have passed - so we'll have already been forced to adapt to life without our own personal (level 5) cars.

 

[harley]

I'm sure you'll be right, at first. But I doubt the cost differential will last for decades. My opinion is that it will just be a number of years. And I'm not an early adopter in general, anyway. I suspect that over a generation or two the car ownership paradigm might change the way you say, but I don't see selling fewer cars as a driving force for car manufacturers. I bet (we can check back in a decade or two) that trying to get the technology accepted will result in the typical price drop. Just like it doesn't cost that much more for a car with XM, navigation, ABS, all the other nagging warning beeps and blinks they've introduced recently. Don't forget the driving force behind manufacturing - sell more! Rich people first, then the rest will follow. And once the tech and code is (relatively) perfected, the cost to implement across the board won't be that high. Hardware and software are cheap, development is what's expensive.

 

[Midpack]

I'm sure you'll be right, at first. But I doubt the cost differential will last for decades. My opinion is that it will just be a number of years. And I'm not an early adopter in general, anyway. I suspect that over a generation or two the car ownership paradigm might change the way you say, but I don't see selling fewer cars as a driving force for car manufacturers. I bet (we can check back in a decade or two) that trying to get the technology accepted will result in the typical price drop. Just like it doesn't cost that much more for a car with XM, navigation, ABS, all the other nagging warning beeps and blinks they've introduced recently. Don't forget the driving force behind manufacturing - sell more! Rich people first, then the rest will follow. And once the tech and code is (relatively) perfected, the cost to implement across the board won't be that high. Hardware and software are cheap, development is what's expensive.

Though I'm guessing it will take longer, you may well be right, I hope so frankly. I'm just inclined to push back on posts (mostly others, not yours) that a) seem to think they know how this will all play out, or b) judge the evolution of self driving based on old paradigms. All I know for sure, is none of us can be sure just yet.

As for how this plays out for car manufacturers specifically, I'm even more at a loss. Sure they will bend the evolution to their advantage if possible, but we've seen industries and paradigms turned upside down - with people confidently predicting it would never happen, until it did. The music industry has been forever changed. Postal mail has been forever changed. Books and newspapers have been forever changed. Brick-n-mortar and niche/specialty stores have declined substantially faced with etailers. The list is very long.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." source in question, Schopenhauer?

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, we are all conjecturing at this point. Predicting where technology will succeed and where it fails is hard. I already brought up the SST Concorde and the Space Shuttle.

But while we are talking about the possibility in the future (is this not the case as we have not seen a Level 5 car yet ), in the case the technology has not driven down the cost of Level 5 car down for mass consumption by the time you become frail and invalid, would you buy it at $150K? At what price would you "go for it"? Remember that you do not have decades to wait.

 

[Midpack]

Yes, we are all conjecturing at this point. Predicting where technology will succeed and where it fails is hard. I already brought up the SST Concorde and the Space Shuttle.

But while we are talking about the possibility in the future (is this not the case as we have not seen a Level 5 car yet ), in the case the technology has not driven down the cost of Level 5 car down for mass consumption by the time you become frail and invalid, would you buy it at $150K? At what price would you "go for it"? Remember that you do not have decades to wait.

You're asking me?

If so, whether the evolution to affordable level 5 cars takes years, or decades, we will most likely have been forced to use a level 5 car via car/ride sharing for years or decades. Having adapted, I can't imagine why I'd then want to buy my own personal self driving car unless it's net cheaper for me. I've already ridden in busses, taxis, limos and Ubers - sharing a vehicle doesn't bother me.

So there is no $ number threshold, it's which is more cost effective for me. We are a LBYM community after all...

 

[NW-Bound]

No, not you specifically, but a curious question for the readers to ask themselves how much they value their mobility in their old age, because so many posters have mentioned it.

About forcing people to share a Level 5 car because it is too expensive, I am not sure it will play out that way. Whether it saves life or money or not, American people value their freedom of movement so much that I am willing to bet no laws can be passed for that to happen. And then, while a car is just a transportation means to me, there's this American love of the cars.