Update on Cord Cutting (Cable TV) 2017 - 2020

[stephenson]

Just looked into the diagram further ... IF the HDHomerun box provides data to a router via ethernet cable, how does the router get my ISP supplied data (it comes from the cable modem via ethernet input also ...)

How would a router provide both ISP (internet data) and OTA data at the same time with only one input?

 

[RonBoyd]

Just looked into the diagram further ... IF the HDHomerun box provides data to a router via ethernet cable, how does the router get my ISP supplied data (it comes from the cable modem via ethernet input also ...)

How would a router provide both ISP (internet data) and OTA data at the same time with only one input?

You would set up a LAN (Local Area Network). That way all Ethernet devices would communicate with one another. (Sounds a lot more complicated than it is -- a simple hub would do it.)

 

[NoMoreJob]

I would like to get some local programming - weather, local news, etc.

Most streaming TV services now provide local programming. I agree that starting with streaming to see if that fills all your needs and then addition OTA if desired for programming and/or convenience (i.e. OTA DVR is typically more function rich and technically better than cloud DVR).

The question then becomes which streaming device? Roku is probably the most flexible in terms of streaming services supported at least until you figure out which is best for you. Or you can just try out the services on your laptop until you settle on one or more and then buy the device that will fit your preferences best.

As others have said, don't overcomplicate this. Take incremental steps and figure it out as you go keeping investment to a minimum until you understand the big picture better. Services and technology in this area continue to rapidly change and mature. Be careful not to invest a lot of effort and dollars perfecting a system that will soon be obsolete.

 

[stephenson]

Ron,

I may not be asking correctly ...

My router is dual frequency, and has four ethernet out ports - but only a single input. The single input is from the cable modem.

Usually the OTA tuner device has a coax input, with an HDMI output to one of the "TV" HDMI inputs. IF the OTA tuner only has an ethernet cable out, where would it connect to if the single ethernet in on the router is already used by the cable modem output?

 

[RonBoyd]

Ron,

I may not be asking correctly ...

My router is dual frequency, and has four ethernet out ports - but only a single input. The single input is from the cable modem.

Usually the OTA tuner device has a coax input, with an HDMI output to one of the "TV" HDMI inputs. IF the OTA tuner only has an ethernet cable out, where would it connect to if the single ethernet in on the router is already used by the cable modem output?

I am unsure how to answer that. I HAVE A Linksys AC5400 MU-MIMO (Multi User-Multi In Multi Out) Router (ES9500). Perhaps the User Guide for this model will help answer your question. (I am not suggesting you spend $400 on a router but only that this is how a router would solve your issue.)

http://downloads.linksys.com/downloads/userguide/EA9400_UG_20160701_1001PDT.pdf

 

[Cobra9777]

Ron,

I may not be asking correctly ...

My router is dual frequency, and has four ethernet out ports - but only a single input. The single input is from the cable modem.

Usually the OTA tuner device has a coax input, with an HDMI output to one of the "TV" HDMI inputs. IF the OTA tuner only has an ethernet cable out, where would it connect to if the single ethernet in on the router is already used by the cable modem output?

A networked tuner connects to one of the four LAN ports... what you are calling "ethernet out ports."

 

[stephenson]

See, told you I was showing my specific ignorance ... I thought the various ethernet ports were only for downstream devices - i.e. the cable from the router to the "TV," passes data to TV ... but, then how would the TV communicate to the source as it checks headers on each grouping ...

Sigh ... so, since I have four ethernet ports, per the HDHomerun or other such device, it just connects into the network via one of those.

ONLY the internet input MUST come into the router via the "internet" connection point!

Yeah - that is a NICE router ... my needs are way more limited

 

[RonBoyd]

Yeah - that is a NICE router ... my needs are way more limited

Yeah, it is nice. (A MESH system would be better, however.)

I can control the router with an App on my Smart Phone. As you can see, there are currently 25 devices connected to the router... and not all of the available ones are turned on. This number includes two TVs -- one wired and the other WiFi.

 

[wmc1000]

See, told you I was showing my specific ignorance ... I thought the various ethernet ports were only for downstream devices - i.e. the cable from the router to the "TV," passes data to TV ... but, then how would the TV communicate to the source as it checks headers on each grouping ...

Sigh ... so, since I have four ethernet ports, per the HDHomerun or other such device, it just connects into the network via one of those.

ONLY the internet input MUST come into the router via the "internet" connection point!

Yeah - that is a NICE router ... my needs are way more limited

Yes, you got it. The ethernet ports are TWO-WAY connections so just as your computers can send and receive internet data through a cable the HDHomerun can communicate through the ethernet connection to your TV. Setup of the HDHomerun is then completed using a computer on your home network.

 

[BLS53]

80 seems hard to believe, plus with most people it's a matter of certain stations being available, not just sheer numbers. Being able to see multiples of CW, PBS, Fox, ION, etc, isn't too interesting, nor are the various weather channels on the substations. I found https://nocable.org/availability-report/zip/80291-denver-co and it shows about 60 by my quick count. Maybe with a really good antenna you can get more from further away, but those are almost sure to be dups.

Used to be an advantage to have a strong antenna to pull in pro sports teams from outlying stations. But that has been negated now, with nearly all teams migrating to regional cable networks. The only thing differentiating OTA networks today on local stations is the evening news.

 

[NoMoreJob]

Used to be an advantage to have a strong antenna to pull in pro sports teams from outlying stations. But that has been negated now, with nearly all teams migrating to regional cable networks. The only thing differentiating OTA networks today on local stations is the evening news.

True to a point (for me). In our major metro market we receive 90 channels. We 'watch' about a dozen. Most of our watching is recording to the OTA DVR and then watching at our leisure. I do usually watch the local and national news live.

I could watch what is the most important of these channels through the streaming service we use (except for PBS) but the OTA DVR is head and shoulders above the cloud DVR in terms of usability so we typically default to it when possible.

If I were setting up my system today rather than before streaming was mainstream I may skip the antenna, but after having both I know I wouldn't be as happy with it as I am with both. We utilize both streaming and the antenna/OTA DVR extensively and lean toward the antenna when possible because it is more convenient.

Of course individual viewing habits and preferences and what one is used to may change that equation.

 

[LastOfTheBoomers]

Funny Story - I’ve been talking to a family member that just retired about YouTubeTV - how it is cheaper and has a DVR - so when they stopped by for a visit - I fired up the Roku and put on a baseball game - she commented “It looks just like regular TV!”

I didn’t know what to say - I wonder if some people think streaming would be grainy?

 

[Dawg52]

Funny Story - I’ve been talking to a family member that just retired about YouTubeTV - how it is cheaper and has a DVR - so when they stopped by for a visit - I fired up the Roku and put on a baseball game - she commented “It looks just like regular TV!”

I didn’t know what to say - I wonder if some people think streaming would be grainy?

When I had Sling and PS Vue, most of the time I got a good picture. But every now and then I would get poor looking reception when streaming a football game. Blurry looking. And I had 100 mpbs speed. Perhaps that is what your family member saw somewhere else.

 

[RonBoyd]

she commented “It looks just like regular TV!”

I didn’t know what to say - I wonder if some people think streaming would be grainy?

Maybe she thought it would be better in some way. I, a couple weeks ago, know that in 2015, I was amazed at the difference a 65" 4K HD TV made over the replaced 45" SD one. I exchanged that one for a 2018 65" 4K HDR set and am, again, amazed at the difference.

(Full disclosure: I am not in the habit of purchasing a TV every couple years. The 45" was ten years old and I plan to keep this new one for at least that long... perhaps the last TV I will ever have to buy. It was purchased only because the 2015 model was not fully compatible with a new -- 2018 --AVR which replaced a ten year-old model.)

 

[Chuckanut]

Funny Story - I’ve been talking to a family member that just retired about YouTubeTV - how it is cheaper and has a DVR - so when they stopped by for a visit - I fired up the Roku and put on a baseball game - she commented “It looks just like regular TV!”

I didn’t know what to say - I wonder if some people think streaming would be grainy?

I get a similar comment when people look at my TV when is getting the picture using an antenna. The uncompressed HD signal is very impressive.

 

[JustCurious]

I get a similar comment when people look at my TV when is getting the picture using an antenna. The uncompressed HD signal is very impressive.

Same here. When I tell people I get HD 1080p quality video and audio from my rabbit ears antenna in my attic, some people just don't believe me. They are brainwashed by the cable companies to think that the only way to get HD tv is to get cable, when the reality is that you can get HD 1080p quality tv with digital audio using a regular rabbit ear antenna, and the signal is BETTER than cable because it is not compressed. There are some people who just refuse to believe that.

And no, you do not need an "HD Antenna," there is no such thing, that is marketing hype. Any rabbit ear antenna will do.

 

[NoMoreJob]

When I had Sling and PS Vue, most of the time I got a good picture. But every now and then I would get poor looking reception when streaming a football game. Blurry looking. And I had 100 mpbs speed. Perhaps that is what your family member saw somewhere else.

I also tried Sling and PS Vue (and others) and had the same inconsistent quality. With YouTube TV I may have it for the first five seconds or so and then it resolves itself.

It's not usually the speed of the internet connection, it's the quality of the stream from the providers' equipment that causes these issues. I have 15 mbps service and can run multiple streams with no quality degradation. Rule of thumb is that as long as you're not trying to stream 4k each stream requires approximately 3 mbps.

I always recommend YouTube TV to friends if they ask due to the higher technical quality. But I also tell them that the channel package needs to fit for them too.

 

[Chuckanut]

I found that if I have captions on the quality of the image may degrade at times.

I often use captions when watching the English mystery shows. Some of the accents are a bit hard to understand.

 

[stephenson]

Good thread!

I may understand better, now ...

I think we should expect new devices to market! With ATSC 3.0 coming (slowly), it will likely offer better programming guides and additional digital signal capability. Should be fun to see what pops out.

Seems like the first basic difference between OTA boxes is whether or not they connect directly to the TV.

If direct, they use an HDMI cable which means you will need to switch inputs to get the OTA signal, right?

If not direct to TV, then they use either and ethernet cable to the router, or are wireless to the router, so that you can get the OTA signal via whatever streaming device you are using. This would seem to mean that a single streaming box would have both internet and OTA going into it and then it would connect to the TV via ethernet or wireless, right? A single input that is switched at the streaming box, vice via inputs to the TV?

Each apparently handles the OTA programming guide differently ... it looks like the big dollar business is providing access to longer term grid programming guides so people can program their DVRs?

 

[RonBoyd]

Good thread!

I may understand better, now ...

I think we should expect new devices to market! With ATSC 3.0 coming (slowly), it will likely offer better programming guides and additional digital signal capability. Should be fun to see what pops out.

Seems like the first basic difference between OTA boxes is whether or not they connect directly to the TV.

If direct, they use an HDMI cable which means you will need to switch inputs to get the OTA signal, right?

If not direct to TV, then they use either and ethernet cable to the router, or are wireless to the router, so that you can get the OTA signal via whatever streaming device you are using. This would seem to mean that a single streaming box would have both internet and OTA going into it and then it would connect to the TV via ethernet or wireless, right? A single input that is switched at the streaming box, vice via inputs to the TV?

Each apparently handles the OTA programming guide differently ... it looks like the big dollar business is providing access to longer term grid programming guides so people can program their DVRs?

You may be making this more complicated than necessary.

First, "OTA Box" is kind of a misnomer. What transfers the signal from an antenna to a TV is called a "Tuner." A Tuner is either built-in or needs to purchased separately. If built-in, you simply use the "Input" menu item to select "TV" (or current Channel). If purchased separately, the device would have to be connected to the TV -- by wire or Wi-Fi. Normally the "Wire" would be a HDMI cable. In any case, you would use "Input" to select whichever HDMI Port or Wi-Fi input the device is using -- this is the same for all like devices, i.e., ROKU, Tablo, nVidia Shield, etc. (None of this, of course, would preclude connecting something between the Tuner and the TV or between antenna and tuner... like your suggested Router.) Another scenario is for the Tuner to be connected to some type of Server -- like a HTPC (Home Theater Personal Computer) which would send the signal to the TV (again, either wired or wireless).

A "Tuner" has only one job. That is to transfer (convert, if you will) a radio signal from an antenna to a TV. A Tuner does not have anything to do with programming or EPG (Electronic Program Guide).

 

[RonBoyd]

I often use captions when watching the English mystery shows. Some of the accents are a bit hard to understand.

I am a big fan of British/Australian/Canadian programming. I agree, they are impossible to watch without CC -- separated by common language and all.

I also need an Acronym dictionary -- Google it. For instance, https://www.google.com/search?newwi...-wiz.......0j0i71j35i39j0i8i13i30.pC-koMglV0I

A good one is https://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/en/accessing-information/lists-and-registers/police-acronyms/

 

[walkinwood]

Interesting thread!


My 9 year old OTA DVR solution using a PC running linux & an open source solution called MythTV has begun to hang randomly & I cannot pin point the issue. I think some connection is getting flaky on the motherboard, so it is time to consider a new solution.


The easiest would be to build/buy a new pc and install mythtv, but we now want to watch from two TVs, and the mythtv doesn't play well with off the shelf streaming devices like Roku. So, we'd have to build a front end using a small computer. I've tried the Raspberry PI 3, but it isn't without issues. I'd rather be able to use a ROKU or a smart-tv app.


Right now, I'm testing out Plex DVR running on my desktop PC & using Roku to stream the recordings to the TV. It isn't as slick as Mythtv, but is workable. If we go the plex route, I'll buy a nvidia shield to act as the DVR/media center.



The features I miss most are:
- the 30 second forward skip.

- Commercial Skip: Plex has a way to get rid of commercials, but since it cuts out the commercial from the video, it sometimes gets rid of pieces of programming by mistake too. Mythtv puts markers around commercials so you can skip to the next marker & rewind if the commercial-skip made an error.
- Fast forward / Rewind : In mythtv, you can see the video stream by in high speed like you would on a DVD, but not so with Roku/Plex.



I have to investigate Kodi since it has a mythtv plug-in.


SageTV has been acquired by Google, so I am unsure of what its current status is.

 

[RonBoyd]

SageTV has been acquired by Google, so I am unsure of what its current status is.

SageTV was acquired by Google about 7-8 years ago. However, a couple years ago, they decided to abandon it. It is now open-source and has a pretty large and knowledgeable user group. (It has been my "main" OTA system for over ten years.) A visit to the SageTV User Forum will get you up-to-date -- https://forums.sagetv.com/forums/

TBH, after reading your post, SageTV would be just what you are looking for and you seem to have the expertise to implement it. (Not that it take that much knowledge.)

 

[stephenson]

RB,

Guess that is my point ... they (I used the word box as a former aerospace guy) are morphing, some overlapping purposes.

I understand that tuners tune - also, odd as it is, my "cheap" 70" Vizio does not have a tuner

So, still have two basic options, right?

1. The OTA tuner/DVR/etc box receives OTA and sends signal to the TV via HDMI
2. The OTA tuner/DVR/etc box receives OTA and sends signal to the router via ethernet or perhaps even wirelessly where it can be shared within the field of that router to any device

In my case, I would have an OTA antenna, coax to the OTA box (tuner or enhanced device like Tivo, Silicon Dust, Tablo), HDMI to TV or ethernet to router. Can then select OTA via the HDMI selector, or have the OTA input show on the streaming device (I have Apple TV box). Many folks already have a streaming device, so this latter approach is pretty transparent and doesn't require switching HDMI inputs (not a big deal, but ....).

 

[jimbee]

The easiest would be to build/buy a new pc and install mythtv, but we now want to watch from two TVs, and the mythtv doesn't play well with off the shelf streaming devices like Roku. So, we'd have to build a front end using a small computer. I've tried the Raspberry PI 3, but it isn't without issues. I'd rather be able to use a ROKU or a smart-tv app.

Right now, I'm testing out Plex DVR running on my desktop PC & using Roku to stream the recordings to the TV. It isn't as slick as Mythtv, but is workable. If we go the plex route, I'll buy a nvidia shield to act as the DVR/media center.

The features I miss most are:
- the 30 second forward skip.

- Commercial Skip: Plex has a way to get rid of commercials, but since it cuts out the commercial from the video, it sometimes gets rid of pieces of programming by mistake too. Mythtv puts markers around commercials so you can skip to the next marker & rewind if the commercial-skip made an error.
- Fast forward / Rewind : In mythtv, you can see the video stream by in high speed like you would on a DVD, but not so with Roku/Plex.

I have to investigate Kodi since it has a mythtv plug-in.

I also have a MythTV server, and have been using a Roku unit with the Plex client to watch MythTV recorded shows. I'm running the Plex server software simultaneously with MythTV server software. No conflicts. I do run mythlink.pl to link the Plex directory with the MythTV shows. You can check it out here: https://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Mythlink.pl . I agree that fast forward using the Plex client is poor.

I can send you the exact mythlink.pl options I use if you're interested.

I used to use Kodi with the MythTV plugin running on a Raspberry Pi, but wanted to reduce the number of set top boxes to one. I repurposed the Raspberry Pi to run Pihole on my network, and it's working very well for that.