Hot Water Issue

[Jerry1]

I have a problem with our hot water. At the faucet, kitchen and bathroom, there is no "warm" water. The spot on the faucet that generates a warm water if very small. I can have very hot water and cold water but trying to dial in warm on a single handled faucet in my house in nearly impossible. I tested my hot water and it's coming out of the heater at about 126 degrees. I'm not sure if that's the problem, but that doesn't seem too hot for the pure hot water to be set at. Does anyone have any ideas on what might be happening or how I can test further?

FWIW, I have three sinks with single handle. They are all different. Kitchen is a Delta touch model. One bathroom is a lowest end Delta and the other bathroom is a higher end Moen model. They all are difficult to dial in a warm temperature.

 

[Mark1]

Almost sounds like as you draw more hot water (near the upper end of warm), the delivery pressure of cold water decreased and when you draw more cold water (near the lower of warm), the delivery pressure of hot decreases. I can't come with a logical explanation of why this might be occurring (?). Of course, you can reverse the logic up above (i.e. drawing more hot water (near the upper end of warm), the delivery pressure of hot water increases), but that seems less likely to me.

Does your shower have one of those pressure regulators that protects you from getting colder water when someone flushes a toilet? If so, is it acting normal?

 

[Sunset]

Does the only cold water flow out as fast as the only hot water setting ?

Seems odd that 3 faucets that are different have the same issue.

Are the turn off valves under the sinks all set to maximum open for the cold water ?

Any chance you have a valve to shut off cold water in the basement separate from the one that goes into the hot water tank and separate from the one for the entire house ?

 

[PaunchyPirate]

I assume this is a "new" problem and it worked fine in the past?

 

[finnski1]

With the faucet at full hot and then fully all the way to cold are you getting similar flow rates. Sounds like the cold may be inhibited somehow?

 

[Jerry1]

Does your shower have one of those pressure regulators that protects you from getting colder water when someone flushes a toilet? If so, is it acting normal?

My shower does have a regulator and it works fine.

Does the only cold water flow out as fast as the only hot water setting ?

Are the turn off valves under the sinks all set to maximum open for the cold water ?

Any chance you have a valve to shut off cold water in the basement separate from the one that goes into the hot water tank and separate from the one for the entire house ?

The cold appears to flow as well as the hot. I will check the cold valves but it does seem that they're fully open. No, there's no other cold water valve.

I assume this is a "new" problem and it worked fine in the past?

No, not a new problem. We remodeled the house when we bought it about 6 years ago. I guess it just bugs me more now (old grumpy guy) and I thought I'd reach out to see if this is common or if there were any ideas.

 

[PaunchyPirate]

I suspect there is a setting inside the faucets that regulate this. I had the inner valve replaced for a leaky shower. That valve has a single-handle attached to it that controls volume flow and a second little lever that controls the mixture of hot and cold water to that desired flow. The plumber discussed a little inner geared dial of sorts that he had to adjust with a screw driver so that the right amount of cold and water would mix as you adjusted that lever. He had me feel the water at various settings for this lever to make sure I approved of the warmth/cold level as it was turned. That dial could not be adjusted without partially disassembling the handle. You might look into this for your particular brand of faucets.

 

[ERD50]

So if it isn't a new problem, it seems like this is just the design of the faucets, they don't have as much middle range as you'd like.

I can't say I've noticed this too much on any of ours (though I often wish there was a detent setting or something for 'comfortably warm'), so it is curious. All I can really think of if the flows all seem normal, is to find a faucet in someone's home that seems to adjust as you like, and try installing that model.

The ~ 126F hot water setting sounds good. If this was higher, that might make it harder to find a middle ground, but I don't think that should be a problem.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

... I tested my hot water and it's coming out of the heater at about 126 degrees. ...

Wait - out of the heater, or out of the faucet? Where exactly did you measure this?

That limit do-hickey mentioned below (which just limits the travel I think) could be the issue. If the water is very hot going in to the faucet, but then limited by a mechanical stop, that could make adjustment very touchy - I think?

-ERD50

 

[freedomatlast]

I've noticed this same issue with a new Delta single lever faucet I bought in December. I recently remodeled a rental and took a Delta single lever faucet back to the store and exchanged it for a Price Pfister because of this issue. The Price Pfister works as it should. The Delta did not have any adjustment for this, nor does the Price Pfister. In the bathroom sink, I used a two handle faucet so that problem isn't an issue there.

I never had this issue with any older faucet. I sure wish the manufacturer's would stay with the time tested internal designs that have been fine tuned and have worked dependably for years.

 

[Telly]

Jerry, as I read your problem description, I immediately thought of a possibility... and scrolled down and saw it in Mark1's post!

Almost sounds like as you draw more hot water (near the upper end of warm), the delivery pressure of cold water decreased and when you draw more cold water (near the lower of warm), the delivery pressure of hot decreases. I can't come with a logical explanation of why this might be occurring (?). Of course, you can reverse the logic up above (i.e. drawing more hot water (near the upper end of warm), the delivery pressure of hot water increases), but that seems less likely to me.

As to why, I'll try and spin a story... Let's say that the water line into the house branches into two paths close to the water heater. One path is to the cold line to faucets. The other path is the inlet to the water heater. It seems Mark1's idea could manifest itself that way. Like robbing Peter to pay Paul, and vice-versa.
I have never lived in any house that the water line branched by the water heater. Anywhere I've lived, or built and lived in it, water heater(s) were a ways away from the supply branch.

The fact that you CAN get real hot water in some position of the faucet, and have multiple faucets exhibiting the same problem, seems to belie any hot-limiter in the faucet as the source of the problem.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Can you get a large cup or bowl under one of these (measuring cup would be best), and turn on the cold all the way, count how many "Mississippis" it takes to fill up, then do the same with the hot? If they're different, then that's your answer; it may not be obvious visually, this can confirm max flow rate.

If they're the same, turn one tap on full, then turn the other on a tiny bit, and see if the stream seems to decrease or the temp seems to change drastically. This is testing for my alternate hypothesis that maybe one side has much higher pressure than the other, so when one tap is on, the other is mostly "stopped up" because it is pushed out by the pressure from the other line. (Kind of the demand-side of Mark1's idea, which is more supply-side.)

 

[latexman]

Is the warm "sweet spot" very close to one end or the other? I'd guess it's close to the hot end. Most valves give the best control about in the middle. If it is very close to the hot end, adjusting the hot water tank up, to say 140 F, will move the sweet spot towards the middle and hopefully to better control.

I don't know if this is an issue, but a common issue is "over control". Making too big a move and over shooting the sweet spot or making too many moves too quickly. Make smaller adjustments and give it time to reach steady state.

 

[OldShooter]

Can you get a large cup or bowl under one of these (measuring cup would be best), and turn on the cold all the way, count how many "Mississippis" it takes to fill up, then do the same with the hot? If they're different, then that's your answer; it may not be obvious visually, this can confirm max flow rate.

If they're the same, turn one tap on full, then turn the other on a tiny bit, and see if the stream seems to decrease or the temp seems to change drastically. This is testing for my alternate hypothesis that maybe one side has much higher pressure than the other, so when one tap is on, the other is mostly "stopped up" because it is pushed out by the pressure from the other line. (Kind of the demand-side of Mark1's idea, which is more supply-side.)

Easier and more accurate test is to use a kitchen scale, set bowl to tare, then open tap into bowl for x seconds, weigh the result (8#/gallon), and calculate a flow rate. Harder to describe than to do.

 

[ncbill]

Sediment filter for the whole house?

I didn't have one and had a bathroom sink fixture (two handle) start leaking.

Sediment had built up and was abrasive enough (looked like sand) to cut through the plastic line from the valve to the faucet connection.

Wonder if there's sediment buildup internal to the one-handle restricting flow...can it be disassembled for cleaning?

 

[Jerry1]

Thanks. I’ll check into these things. ERD - I measured it at the faucet all the way on hot. I was just trying to say that the heater is set at about 126.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks. I’ll check into these things. ERD - I measured it at the faucet all the way on hot. I was just trying to say that the heater is set at about 126.

OK, so can you measure it more directly from the water heater? Maybe the 126F you see at the faucet isn't really full on hot. maybe the handle is still letting cold water in, so your full hot setting is really more like the 'middle' position? I'm not sure that would make it harder to adjust or not.

Try shutting off the cold water source at the shutoff valve for the faucet while the faucet is on full hot. The flow shouldn't change (best to measure the amount over X seconds, might not be so easy to tell from the looks).

-ERD50
.

 

[Jerry1]

I looked up my kitchen faucet and the cartridge it uses does have a limiter adjustment. The manual says the following:

This faucet includes an integrated handle limit stop that has two positions. Position 1, to the left, allows full handle motion (the full range between “all cold” to “all hot”). The faucet is set in position 1 in the factory. Position 2, to the right, allows half of the normal handle motion (“all cold” to “mixed hot/cold”).

I’m not sure if it will fix my problem, but I’ll move it to position 2 and see how that changes things (or, if the installer already has it set on #2, I’ll move it to #1. That’s one of the simplest things to do. While I’m at it, I’ll check the flow rate by shutting off the hot and cold valves one at a time and see if that gives me any information.

Also, it would make sense that if the plumber/installer adjusted all three faucets to limit the hot water that they all could be acting the same even though they’re different and different manufacturers. We’ll see.

I’ll report back. This seems like a job for Wednesday as we’re expecting an all day snow. Thanks for some ideas to try.

 

[Time2]

So if it isn't a new problem, it seems like this is just the design of the faucets, they don't have as much middle range as you'd like.

-ERD50

Design of the faucets, or a design flaw of the faucets! I'm on boil over this. I installed a new DELTA faucet a few year ago, the first thing I noticed was I could not get a hot but not to hot water to flow out of the faucet, either cold or to hot! After a few iterations you can find a small spot where the temp is right, but it is not easy. I called the company DELTA, and ask about the problem, I was put through a process to adjust the hot water, in the end that was a limit to how hot the temperature would get, if I did that then I could not get hot water only the limited hot I set it at. So, more complaining and they sent me a new cartridge for the faucet. That was no different, still very difficult to adjust for medium hot temperature. And to top it off, now a year after installing the new cartridge the off position has a narrower range and you have to get it perfectly centered to be off, if not it just drips, that's new. I have a new faucet, NOT A DELTA, that I'm going to install, just haven't done it yet. ARRGGHH!!!

 

[Jerry1]

Design of the faucets, or a design flaw of the faucets! I'm on boil over this. I installed a new DELTA faucet a few year ago, the first thing I noticed was I could not get a hot but not to hot water to flow out of the faucet, either cold or to hot! After a few iterations you can find a small spot where the temp is right, but it is not easy. I called the company DELTA, and ask about the problem, I was put through a process to adjust the hot water, in the end that was a limit to how hot the temperature would get, if I did that then I could not get hot water only the limited hot I set it at. So, more complaining and they sent me a new cartridge for the faucet. That was no different, still very difficult to adjust for medium hot temperature. And to top it off, now a year after installing the new cartridge the off position has a narrower range and you have to get it perfectly centered to be off, if not it just drips, that's new. I have a new faucet, NOT A DELTA, that I'm going to install, just haven't done it yet. ARRGGHH!!!

This is exactly what I’m dealing with. The kitchen is the main problem because the bathroom faucets are just not used that much. Basically, the water heats up and I’m done washing my hands. In the kitchen, we’re doing dishes or food prep and would like some warm (not hot not cold - warm) and it just doesn’t happen. Glad to know it’s not just me. Please report back on your next faucet.

 

[Winemaker]

Try to trick your faucet by switching the supply lines under the sink. The metering device is not an intelligent or smart device, so it doesn't know what water is entering the faucet. then you could determine whether it is a faucet issue or water supply issue,

 

[Time2]

Try to trick your faucet by switching the supply lines under the sink. The metering device is not an intelligent or smart device, so it doesn't know what water is entering the faucet. then you could determine whether it is a faucet issue or water supply issue,

In my case, it only started after I changed the Faucet, I had no problem until I replaced the old faucet with this poorly designed DELTA faucet.

 

[Jerry1]

I looked up my kitchen faucet and the cartridge it uses does have a limiter adjustment. The manual says the following:

This faucet includes an integrated handle limit stop that has two positions. Position 1, to the left, allows full handle motion (the full range between “all cold” to “all hot”). The faucet is set in position 1 in the factory. Position 2, to the right, allows half of the normal handle motion (“all cold” to “mixed hot/cold”).

I’m not sure if it will fix my problem, but I’ll move it to position 2 and see how that changes things (or, if the installer already has it set on #2, I’ll move it to #1. That’s one of the simplest things to do. While I’m at it, I’ll check the flow rate by shutting off the hot and cold valves one at a time and see if that gives me any information.

Also, it would make sense that if the plumber/installer adjusted all three faucets to limit the hot water that they all could be acting the same even though they’re different and different manufacturers. We’ll see.

I’ll report back. This seems like a job for Wednesday as we’re expecting an all day snow. Thanks for some ideas to try.

I moved the switch today to position #2 and that was a worthless exercise. All that it did was restrict the movement of the faucet handle. It wouldn’t let me move it all the way to the hot position. In fact, because of that, the water never even got warm. I’m thinking I’m with Time2 and it’s just that these Delta faucets suck. Problem is that mine is only 6 years old and they cost a boatload more now than they did six years ago. And, I like everything else about it. Maybe I can get better results by dialing down the hot water at the valve under the sink. More likely, I’ll just continue to live with it. Especially after reading what Time2 went through. Ugh.

 

[ERD50]

Hmmm, as a test (and only a test), if other things fail, try closing the shut-off valve on the hot water about half-way (monitor the flow with the faucet full-hot).

That should give a larger range of adjustment, and full-hot will still be full-hot, just with lower total flow.

I say test only, as I've read that some valves are designed to be full on/off, and in-between settings can lead to leaks/damage?

If that helps and you don't mind the lower full-hot flow, you could install a valve designed to be throttled, or replace the shut-off valve with one that can be throttled.

Or, in the 'more work than it's worth' category - add that second throttle valve and a solenoid valve bypass, so you can have the best of both worlds at the flick of a switch.


edit/add: Oooops! I cross-posted with OP! : "Maybe I can get better results by dialing down the hot water at the valve under the sink. "



-ERD50

 

[arbeadub]

I had a similar problem with a single lever kitchen faucet that also developed a constant drip, the fix that worked for me was to lubricate the internal seals and ball valve that had a stiction deformation on the rubber parts. I did not find wear on the parts but the potable safe lube did make the problem go away.