US Domestic Spying
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HFWR
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Very unhappy.
Very unhappy.
REWahoo
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
I have no problem with us spying on domestics. Some of those people cannot be trusted and will steal from you if not closely watched.
I have no problem with us spying on domestics. Some of those people cannot be trusted and will steal from you if not closely watched.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Hey, watch out - the NSA could have made a deal with Merry Maids, etc.
REWahoo! said:I have no problem with us spying on domestics. Some of those people cannot be trusted and will steal from you if not closely watched.
Hey, watch out - the NSA could have made a deal with Merry Maids, etc.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
By "spying" are you referring to the collection of phone call data that, according to previous court rulings (1979), the government is permited to have without a warrant? If so, I'm not upset until somebody is shown to have used the data inappropriately.
Interesting editorial on this today in the WSJ:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/
There's past history of govt abuse in this area, so it pays to be vigilant--but nothing released to date has me concerned.
By "spying" are you referring to the collection of phone call data that, according to previous court rulings (1979), the government is permited to have without a warrant? If so, I'm not upset until somebody is shown to have used the data inappropriately.
Interesting editorial on this today in the WSJ:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/
There's past history of govt abuse in this area, so it pays to be vigilant--but nothing released to date has me concerned.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
How do we know? The Justice Department opened a probe into it, the NSA refused to grant any investigators clearances, so the Justice Department said, "well, that just about wraps that up!" and shelved the investigation!
Any time anyone sues over abuses (including torture) the Federal branch simply tells the Judge, "dismiss the case because it might risk revealing sensitive data wrt national security". "Case Dismissed!".
One guy was picked up in Germany, taken to Afghanistan, tortured and interrogated for a few months and then it was realized they had a case of mistaken identity. He was flown to Albania, blindfolded, led to a top of a hill and released to find his own way home.
Of course, it's all good for the sake of national security until the potato sack goes over your head....
How do we know? The Justice Department opened a probe into it, the NSA refused to grant any investigators clearances, so the Justice Department said, "well, that just about wraps that up!" and shelved the investigation!
Any time anyone sues over abuses (including torture) the Federal branch simply tells the Judge, "dismiss the case because it might risk revealing sensitive data wrt national security". "Case Dismissed!".
One guy was picked up in Germany, taken to Afghanistan, tortured and interrogated for a few months and then it was realized they had a case of mistaken identity. He was flown to Albania, blindfolded, led to a top of a hill and released to find his own way home.
Of course, it's all good for the sake of national security until the potato sack goes over your head....
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
If this is legitimate, why was it a secret?
Yes, this bothers me. What bothers me more is that we wouldn't even know about it if someone hadn't leaked it.
What else are they doing that we don't know about? Nothing I'd be surprised by, that's for sure.
If this is legitimate, why was it a secret?
Yes, this bothers me. What bothers me more is that we wouldn't even know about it if someone hadn't leaked it.
What else are they doing that we don't know about? Nothing I'd be surprised by, that's for sure.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Sam - it's what we know so far.
A while ago AJ Gonzales was telling the senate that the monitoring of international calls was the extent of the spying or maybe he carefully choose his words to avoid lying to us...
I heard that about the phone records - I think there should be a warrant for those despite what a court judge ok'd - also not sure if the court in 1979 had in mind phone records of 10's of millions of people or for just an individual's...
If it wasn't for a free press we wouldn't know... The congress which is supposed to check the executive branch found out about it in the papers ( except for a few select friends of the administration)
Sam - it's what we know so far.
A while ago AJ Gonzales was telling the senate that the monitoring of international calls was the extent of the spying or maybe he carefully choose his words to avoid lying to us...
I heard that about the phone records - I think there should be a warrant for those despite what a court judge ok'd - also not sure if the court in 1979 had in mind phone records of 10's of millions of people or for just an individual's...
If it wasn't for a free press we wouldn't know... The congress which is supposed to check the executive branch found out about it in the papers ( except for a few select friends of the administration)
retire@40
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Even in the worst case scenario, if the government is listening to every conversation I have and every posting I make, it wouldn't bother me since I don't do anything illegal - at least not intentionally. They would get bored with me very quickly.
I doubt most reasonable, honest people would think the government would be concerned with their lives.
The people that make noise in this area are usually people who are looking for attention or want to think they are more important than other people.
We are all the police, so if I were an average bad guy, I'd be more concerned with my next door neighbor turning me in to the local police rather than the NSA listening in on my phone calls.
For the terrorist, I would really hate the government having the power to listen in on my communications.
If the government starts abusing private communications by telling my Uncle Fred that I told my Uncle Mike that I think Uncle Fred's new wife is ugly, that would bother me.
So, I guess the collection of information doesn't concern me as much as what they are doing with that information.
Even in the worst case scenario, if the government is listening to every conversation I have and every posting I make, it wouldn't bother me since I don't do anything illegal - at least not intentionally
. They would get bored with me very quickly.I doubt most reasonable, honest people would think the government would be concerned with their lives.
The people that make noise in this area are usually people who are looking for attention or want to think they are more important than other people.
We are all the police, so if I were an average bad guy, I'd be more concerned with my next door neighbor turning me in to the local police rather than the NSA listening in on my phone calls.
For the terrorist, I would really hate the government having the power to listen in on my communications.
If the government starts abusing private communications by telling my Uncle Fred that I told my Uncle Mike that I think Uncle Fred's new wife is ugly, that would bother me.
So, I guess the collection of information doesn't concern me as much as what they are doing with that information.
Rich_by_the_Bay
Moderator Emeritus
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Laurence said:Why do you question your leader? We are on the verge of a glorious new era!
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!
youbet
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
1. I wish "they" would inform Congress of what's happening, what they are doing with the call records, etc., so that, if it is reasonable, all the arm waving will stop.
2. If there is a conspiracy to do something unethical, wrong or cruel to honest, ordinary citizens, I sure can't figure out what it is or what's in it for the current administration. But, having said that, then why are they keeping it a secret from Congress? It just doesn't add up.
3. I wish Ted Kennedy would stop describing the activity as secret agents sitting in a van wearing headphones outside your home listening to you talk to your mother hoping you say something suspicious. That isn't what's happening and Ted's misleading comments only reduce his effectiveness at getting to the bottom of the issue and getting it resolved.
1. I wish "they" would inform Congress of what's happening, what they are doing with the call records, etc., so that, if it is reasonable, all the arm waving will stop.
2. If there is a conspiracy to do something unethical, wrong or cruel to honest, ordinary citizens, I sure can't figure out what it is or what's in it for the current administration. But, having said that, then why are they keeping it a secret from Congress? It just doesn't add up.
3. I wish Ted Kennedy would stop describing the activity as secret agents sitting in a van wearing headphones outside your home listening to you talk to your mother hoping you say something suspicious. That isn't what's happening and Ted's misleading comments only reduce his effectiveness at getting to the bottom of the issue and getting it resolved.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
I used to spy on our domestic all the time until she started wearing longer skirts...
Just kidding. I didn't think the debate was about domestic spying. I thought the debate was just about whose job it is to do the domestic spying. After all those NSA, CIA, & FBI unions can get pretty competitive. Good thing they're all part of the same Happy Homeland Security team now.
Considering the technological challenges and the sheer volume of data to be processed, it's not amazing that someone is spying domestically-- it's amazing that they're actually learning anything from it. If one submarine crew can barely keep up with the crap that flows through its sensor net then I have no idea how the NSA can possibly distinguish unimportant crap from important crap.
Doesn't anyone remember the good ol' Hoover days? At least now I can submit a FOIA act request to read my surveillance file! I wonder if they have any good pictures of me doing a cutback in last week's surf...
I used to spy on our domestic all the time until she started wearing longer skirts...
Just kidding. I didn't think the debate was about domestic spying. I thought the debate was just about whose job it is to do the domestic spying. After all those NSA, CIA, & FBI unions can get pretty competitive. Good thing they're all part of the same Happy Homeland Security team now.
Ah, if your conscience is clear then you have nothing to fear, right? Um, never mind.Laurence said:
Considering the technological challenges and the sheer volume of data to be processed, it's not amazing that someone is spying domestically-- it's amazing that they're actually learning anything from it. If one submarine crew can barely keep up with the crap that flows through its sensor net then I have no idea how the NSA can possibly distinguish unimportant crap from important crap.
Doesn't anyone remember the good ol' Hoover days? At least now I can submit a FOIA act request to read my surveillance file! I wonder if they have any good pictures of me doing a cutback in last week's surf...
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
You're behind the times, gmb...
"Early last week, NBC reported the existence of a secret Department of Defense (DOD) database related to "potential terrorist threats." One example of identified "threats" is a group in Lake Worth, Florida that included five Quakers and a 79-year old grandmother who met at their local Quaker meeting house to discuss how to protest military recruiting at an area high school. Other examples of "threatening" events in the database included handing out literature in front of military recruiting stations and commemorating the second anniversary of the Iraq War."
You're behind the times, gmb...
"Early last week, NBC reported the existence of a secret Department of Defense (DOD) database related to "potential terrorist threats." One example of identified "threats" is a group in Lake Worth, Florida that included five Quakers and a 79-year old grandmother who met at their local Quaker meeting house to discuss how to protest military recruiting at an area high school. Other examples of "threatening" events in the database included handing out literature in front of military recruiting stations and commemorating the second anniversary of the Iraq War."
REWahoo
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Uh Oh Caroline. I'm pretty sure that last post added your name to the list.
Uh Oh Caroline. I'm pretty sure that last post added your name to the list.
lets-retire
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
For those of you are are asking the interesting question, "Why is it secret?" They tried going to the suspected terroists while in uniform but the terrorists stopped doing the bad things. Gee, imagine that the terrorists don't want to get caught so they stop doing their terrorist thing when the Fed's are around. It's kind of like using undercover cops to catch a bad guy doing bad things. The big difference is these are terrorists, who we currently are at war with, so that makes them enemy combatants without the protection of the U.S. Constitution.
The reason Congress isn't told is because they can't keep a secret to save their lives. In fact during I believe it was the beginning of Afganistan Bush went to Congress and filled them in on a few plans. If I remember correctly it took them all of 4 hours to leak the information to the press. I woul dprefer Congress to know nothing their inability to keep a secret vital to national security can and will get soldiers killed.
I'll leave my post at this as I'm tired of debating with people about war time issues, who seem to forget WE ARE AT WAR whether we like it or not.
For those of you are are asking the interesting question, "Why is it secret?" They tried going to the suspected terroists while in uniform but the terrorists stopped doing the bad things. Gee, imagine that the terrorists don't want to get caught so they stop doing their terrorist thing when the Fed's are around. It's kind of like using undercover cops to catch a bad guy doing bad things. The big difference is these are terrorists, who we currently are at war with, so that makes them enemy combatants without the protection of the U.S. Constitution.
The reason Congress isn't told is because they can't keep a secret to save their lives. In fact during I believe it was the beginning of Afganistan Bush went to Congress and filled them in on a few plans. If I remember correctly it took them all of 4 hours to leak the information to the press. I woul dprefer Congress to know nothing their inability to keep a secret vital to national security can and will get soldiers killed.
I'll leave my post at this as I'm tired of debating with people about war time issues, who seem to forget WE ARE AT WAR whether we like it or not.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Your circular reasoning is amazing. So let's get this straight, as long as we keep attacking countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, we can allow the Executive branch of the government run roughshod over the constitution, violate human rights, torture, etc.
Notice that wars againt pro-nouns never end? War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terror. So we have a never ending war, which excuses bypassing all the normal legal channels, forever. Hey I know, why don't we declare a state of emergency and suspend all elections, we need a steady hand at the helm until this war is over! Remember, we are at war!
Oh, and despite all of these actions, Osama is still flipping us off from his base in the hinterlands of Pakistan, our alleged ally.
Your circular reasoning is amazing. So let's get this straight, as long as we keep attacking countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, we can allow the Executive branch of the government run roughshod over the constitution, violate human rights, torture, etc.
Notice that wars againt pro-nouns never end? War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terror. So we have a never ending war, which excuses bypassing all the normal legal channels, forever. Hey I know, why don't we declare a state of emergency and suspend all elections, we need a steady hand at the helm until this war is over! Remember, we are at war!
Oh, and despite all of these actions, Osama is still flipping us off from his base in the hinterlands of Pakistan, our alleged ally.
Tadpole
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
How many leaks have come from the FISA court?
lets-retire said:
How many leaks have come from the FISA court?
Tadpole
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Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
I didn't participate because I couldn't match my point of view with the offerings. The database shouldn't be but doesn't really bother me.
I think that at some time we will start hearing a lot of campaign talking points about who has been in contact with whom and how many times that contact took place.
I think that, if the database produces a result, the further investigation of that result should go through the FISA court for vetting.
How good do you think the (non) data mining technology actually is?
DanTien said:
I didn't participate because I couldn't match my point of view with the offerings. The database shouldn't be but doesn't really bother me.
I think that at some time we will start hearing a lot of campaign talking points about who has been in contact with whom and how many times that contact took place.
I think that, if the database produces a result, the further investigation of that result should go through the FISA court for vetting.
How good do you think the (non) data mining technology actually is?
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
I'd like another voting option
"I'm pissed and I'd like to shoot everyone involved out of a cannon, or with a cannon".
Constitution crapping, civil rights ripping pieces of crap.
I love listening to the hoo-hah too. "But this makes us safer and helps us find the terrorists"...uhh, opinion and the correct answer is probably no, and no. "We're not spying on innocent people"...yep, yes you are, until a court of law determines otherwise. "If you're against this plan, you're helping the terrorists"...no, YOU'RE helping the terrorists by spending a trillion dollars on worthless or ineffective programs, slashing core civil rights, and breaking the law.
They dont have to do anything to us anymore...we'll gladly take the toll on ourselves psychologically and financially.
Dont get me wrong...i'm all for organized and comprehensive approaches to defeat terrorism. What i'm mortally concerned about is the demographic compilations and "six degrees of kevin bacon" crap thats going to result. I call a guy who calls a guy who calls a guy. Further correlations of books loaned, movies watched and supermarket items purchased (all of which actually were made by someone else but by computer glitch are associated with me), coupled with large cash purchases of homes and cars...and I trigger some threshold that lets some MF'er tap my phones and read my email.
I dont THINK so.
I'd like another voting option
"I'm pissed and I'd like to shoot everyone involved out of a cannon, or with a cannon".
Constitution crapping, civil rights ripping pieces of crap.
I love listening to the hoo-hah too. "But this makes us safer and helps us find the terrorists"...uhh, opinion and the correct answer is probably no, and no. "We're not spying on innocent people"...yep, yes you are, until a court of law determines otherwise. "If you're against this plan, you're helping the terrorists"...no, YOU'RE helping the terrorists by spending a trillion dollars on worthless or ineffective programs, slashing core civil rights, and breaking the law.
They dont have to do anything to us anymore...we'll gladly take the toll on ourselves psychologically and financially.
Dont get me wrong...i'm all for organized and comprehensive approaches to defeat terrorism. What i'm mortally concerned about is the demographic compilations and "six degrees of kevin bacon" crap thats going to result. I call a guy who calls a guy who calls a guy. Further correlations of books loaned, movies watched and supermarket items purchased (all of which actually were made by someone else but by computer glitch are associated with me), coupled with large cash purchases of homes and cars...and I trigger some threshold that lets some MF'er tap my phones and read my email.
I dont THINK so.
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Wonder If the FBI spies on the CIA....and the CIA on the FBI...that would seem reasonable...then they would know what the other is doing
Not worried about the CIA & FBI - it's the IRS that gives me the willies...
http://tinyurl.com/frzge
Wonder If the FBI spies on the CIA....and the CIA on the FBI...that would seem reasonable...then they would know what the other is doing
Not worried about the CIA & FBI - it's the IRS that gives me the willies...
http://tinyurl.com/frzge
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Re: How Do You Feel About US Domestic Spying
Sure...didnt the FBI just arrest the CIA's #3 guy?
Sure...didnt the FBI just arrest the CIA's #3 guy?
