A Discussion About the Middle Class

[keegs]

Charlie Rose - A discussion about the Middle Class

 

[dex]

What did you think about the show?

Charlie Rose - A discussion about the Middle Class

A discussion about the Middle Class with Arianna Huffington of The Huffington Post and author of "Third World America: How Politicians are Abandoning the Middle Class and Betraying the American Dream," Jacob Hacker of Yale University and author of "Winner-Take-All Politics: Inequality and the Transformation of American Politics" Steve Pearlstein of "The Washington Post" and Kenneth Rogoff of Harvard University and co-author of "This Time is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly"

http://www.amazon.com/This-Time-Different-Centuries-Financial/dp/0691142165
Reinhart and Rogoff's book provides a quantitative history of financial crises derived from over 600 years and 66 nations. The basic message from all their data is that there are remarkable similarities in today's financial crises with experience from other countries and nations.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I read through the first part of the transcript. They reiterated all the issues. The high costs of housing/education/health care and taxes.

I didn't see a workable solution there though. Was there one ?

 

[HFWR]

I read through the first part of the transcript. They reiterated all the issues. The high costs of housing/education/health care and taxes.

I didn't see a workable solution there though. Was there one ?

Right after this word from our sponsor...

 

[dex]

I didn't see a workable solution there though. Was there one ?

Eliminate all classes (comrade)...

 

[keegs]

Charlie Rose - Fareed Zakaria

 

[dex]

Studio Admits Entire Israeli- Palestinian Conflict Just Marketing Campaign For 'You Don't Mess With The Zohan' That Got Out Of Hand | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

 

[walkinwood]

It was one of the better Charlie Rose shows in recent weeks.

The first panel was very interesting to me & covered a lot of ground though I didn't agree with everything that was said. A couple of points I remember. a) as the richest 1% gets richer, they can spend money to influence policy to make them even richer - making us more like an oligarchy; & b) the richest 400 in the country paid 40% of their income in 1960, 30% in 1995, 16.5% in 2000. I assume this is federal income tax.

Fareed's point is that we can't fight technology & globalization - we have to adapt to them. His point is that government should be investing in Education (not just K-10, but apprenticeships, retraining etc, R&D & infrastructure - things that will pay off in the future. The problem is that the future has no votes in the present. So, instead, most of government spending today is going towards consumption - funding states, tax cuts etc. that government hopes that the recipients spend right away.
This is a continuation of his article in the Time Magazine cover article
Fareed Zakaria on How to Restore the American Dream - TIME

 

[keegs]

It was one of the better Charlie Rose shows in recent weeks.

The first panel was very interesting to me & covered a lot of ground though I didn't agree with everything that was said. A couple of points I remember. a) as the richest 1% gets richer, they can spend money to influence policy to make them even richer - making us more like an oligarchy; & b) the richest 400 in the country paid 40% of their income in 1960, 30% in 1995, 16.5% in 2000. I assume this is federal income tax.

Fareed's point is that we can't fight technology & globalization - we have to adapt to them. His point is that government should be investing in Education (not just K-10, but apprenticeships, retraining etc, R&D & infrastructure - things that will pay off in the future. The problem is that the future has no votes in the present. So, instead, most of government spending today is going towards consumption - funding states, tax cuts etc. that government hopes that the recipients spend right away.
This is a continuation of his article in the Time Magazine cover article
Fareed Zakaria on How to Restore the American Dream - TIME

Another point made was that post ww2, others have emeged to challenge our place in the world. That there's an emerging new world order.

Zakaria seemed to contradict himself in the sense that he put politics number three behind technology and globalization as the cores of our problem when it seems to me that while the first two have indeed created challenges for us they've also created a much larger economic pie.

In my view it's our inability to adapt to the challenges of the new order that's at the core of our problem which in large measure is a result of increasing political polorization, the outsized influence of monied interests, our inabilty to think past the next election cycle....

 

[haha]

It was one of the better Charlie Rose shows in recent weeks.

The first panel was very interesting to me & covered a lot of ground though I didn't agree with everything that was said. A couple of points I remember. a) as the richest 1% gets richer, they can spend money to influence policy to make them even richer - making us more like an oligarchy; & b) the richest 400 in the country paid 40% of their income in 1960, 30% in 1995, 16.5% in 2000. I assume this is federal income tax.

Fareed's point is that we can't fight technology & globalization - we have to adapt to them. His point is that government should be investing in Education (not just K-10, but apprenticeships, retraining etc, R&D & infrastructure - things that will pay off in the future. The problem is that the future has no votes in the present. So, instead, most of government spending today is going towards consumption - funding states, tax cuts etc. that government hopes that the recipients spend right away.
This is a continuation of his article in the Time Magazine cover article
Fareed Zakaria on How to Restore the American Dream - TIME

You highlight two very interesting and troubling issues. One, when do citizens become subjects? I would say we are past that divide; we are more subjects than we are citizens. Some of us still vote, usually most enthusiastically for or against some rock-star candidate, or for or against some hot button issue like abortion, gay marriage, "don't ask, don't tell", gun rights or other issues that are very important to a relatively small, highly focused constituency but not usually of central importance to the success of the country. Seniors also get out and vote, usually to protect their benefits, as do union members, public workers, etc.

Who are we subjects of? I would say of entrenched politicians who stay entrenched by virtue of the power and money of an oligarchic group of very wealthy individuals who are the major benficiaries of our serfdom, with the regal politicians being large beneficiaries but not the seat of the true power. True that presidents have so far not been able to entrench themselves, but we have had our dynasties and they might not be over yet. All HRC needs to become president is to live until 2016, and for either Obama to win again in 2012, or a Republican of the Sarah Palin class to take that one, and lose as she likely would in 2016.

And even if a dynasty doesn't happen, "former president" is usually a far better gig than any of these cyphers could achieve on their own.

After 1929 there was a vigorous legislative and prosecutorial response to the financial abuses of the roaring 20s. This time-nada. They threw us Madoff, who is a simple crook, not in any way one of the masters.

The 2nd issue you highlight is how we throw away huge amounts of wealth trying to prop up asset prices, and trying to spur consumer debt. Meanwhile giant problems that cry out to be solved are more or less ignored- global warming, nuclear electrical generation, research on less wasteful ways of getting from the generators to the users, better freight and public transportation systems.

Money spent trying to gin housing prices in completely wasted. If it succeeds, the only winners are municipal taxing bodies and people who are planning on selling their homes and not re-buying. Losers are almost everyone else- most clearly young families who woiud like to own a home.

There are real issues with underwater homeowners, but they should be solved at the level of the banks and mortgages. Banks have capital; covering losses is what the capital is for.

And education, not just blocking for teachers'unions, but actually finding a way to teach anything that might help students suceed in a modern economy. It isn't a mystery, almost any European, East Asian or South Asian country, or Israel could give us a ready to use template.

My bet is 3 to 1 against any of this being seriously undertaken.

Ha

 

[simas]

"One, when do citizens become subjects?"
1) when they get disarmed and loose even theoretical ability stop their leaders into turning into their masters
2) when more and more of their time is spent working to pay the taxes
3) when they loose ability influence local matters
4) when country stops working from ground up and instead is govern by a degree from top down.
5) when non productive (government) sectors grows as percentage of the economy
6)when they realize that they can vote themselves something out of public treasure without having to pay for it

all of these usually come together and usually come in nice packages and pretty slogans (for your security, for your jobs, to protect you, to protect your children ,etc).

 

[chinaco]

Middle-Class.... requires a college education (for the masses) to attain a solidly middle-class status.

Low skill blue-collar workers and service workers (on average) will struggle.

Trying to project the future by looking at our state during this economic restructuring will lead to wrong conclusion about the future.


Take a look at this point of view.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insights/video/VP-cautious-optimism-10202010

 

[brewer12345]

Why isn't this in the political topics wastebin forum?

 

[Gone4Good]

And education, not just blocking for teachers'unions, but actually finding a way to teach anything that might help students suceed in a modern economy. It isn't a mystery, almost any European, East Asian or South Asian country, or Israel could give us a ready to use template.

Yup, it's long past time to tear-up our whole education playbook and start fresh. Coming in 20, or 30-something out of 40 in something as critical to our future as education, while spending far more than everyone else, isn't acceptable. But one wonders if there isn't something cultural here. We don't seem to value education as much as many other cultures do. In fact, we routinely mock and ridicule the "educated elite." The best teachers and schools in the world will have a hard time overcoming parental and societal indifference to education. I'm not sure how we fix that.

 

[audreyh1]

That's what I think. Scholastic achievement is looked down upon in this country, distrusted - academic credentials are even ridiculed at times. Not by everyone, but by the majority IMO. That was one of the most striking cultural differences that I encountered when returned to the states as a teenager in the 70s, and as far as I can tell it has gotten worse every decade.

You can complain about school bureaucracy and teachers unions, school boards all you want, but until the parents value scholastic achievement and mentor their kids' learning, mass education will continue to be sub-par in this country, and like Gone4Good I don't see how this can be fixed because it seems to be ingrained in American culture.

Audrey

 

[jimnjana]

You can complain about school bureaucracy and teachers unions, school boards all you want, but until the parents value scholastic achievement and mentor their kids' learning, mass education will continue to be sub-par in this country, and like Gone4Good I don't see how this can be fixed because it seems to be ingrained in American culture.

Audrey

Parents are the key. Decline in education seems to be in lock step with the rise in two working parent families. Not saying that there is anything wrong with both husband and wife working but...day care does not replace a stay a home mom or dad. That said, in no way do I support teachers unions and the educational bureaucracy that allows agenda to replace educational achievement.

 

[walkinwood]

That's what I think. Scholastic achievement is looked down upon in this country, distrusted - academic credentials are even ridiculed at times. Not by everyone, but by the majority IMO. ...I don't see how this can be fixed because it seems to be ingrained in American culture.

Audrey

I think this can be reversed. Look what we, as a society, accomplished with smoking. But it takes a will and critical mass - neither of which I see in the community around me.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Another point made was that post ww2, others have emeged to challenge our place in the world. That there's an emerging new world order.

yeah, It's really hard for the middle class to thrive when they are competing against 3rd world workers living in mud-huts.

 

[M Paquette]

Oh, foo. Public education means that everyone has education available, and so it loses any respect for being significant or important. Shut down public education. Private education will still be available for those who can afford it for themselves or their children.

This makes education something special, rather than a basic commodity available to all at no charge. [1]

Bedsides, we're becoming a service economy. Skills beyond simple counting aren't really needed for basic service jobs. Just swipe the card, touch the right pictures, and don't worry about that distracting text scrolling by. A week's training is all that should be needed...

1. I cribbed this from an opinion piece published by my former party's local House candidate. *SIGH*

 

[audreyh1]

1. I cribbed this from an opinion piece published by my former party's local House candidate. *SIGH*

Whew! You really had me going there for a moment!

 

[Gone4Good]

I think this can be reversed. Look what we, as a society, accomplished with smoking.

I can see the public service commercials now . . .

YouTube - fat drunk stupid

 

[Martha]

I think this can be reversed. Look what we, as a society, accomplished with smoking. But it takes a will and critical mass - neither of which I see in the community around me.

Instead of a will to change, there is smug self satisfaction. We are better than everyone else!!! Our whole country seems to suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

 

[audreyh1]

Instead of a will to change, there is smug self satisfaction. We are better than everyone else!!! Our whole country seems to suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

That's what I see. Willful ignorance is celebrated - and loudly too!

Interesting about the Dunning-Kruger effect - never heard of it (sure that's not just some famous Halloween character? )

Dunning and Kruger themselves quote Charles Darwin ("Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge")

Audrey

 

[Gone4Good]

Instead of a will to change, there is smug self satisfaction. We are better than everyone else!!! Our whole country seems to suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

You Betcha!

 

[audreyh1]

Instead of a will to change, there is smug self satisfaction. We are better than everyone else!!! Our whole country seems to suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Well - according to the Wikipedia entry it is more of a North American phenomenon:

Studies on the Dunning–Kruger effect tend to focus on American test subjects. Similar studies on European subjects show marked muting of the effect; studies on some East Asian subjects suggest that something like the opposite of the Dunning–Kruger effect operates on self-assessment and motivation to improve:

Regardless of how pervasive the phenomenon is, it is clear from Dunning's and others' work that many Americans, at least sometimes and under some conditions, have a tendency to inflate their worth. It is interesting, therefore, to see the phenomenon's mirror opposite in another culture. In research comparing North American and East Asian self-assessments, Heine of the University of British Columbia finds that East Asians tend to underestimate their abilities, with an aim toward improving the self and getting along with others.[14]

Audrey