Going Solar - Maybe

[REWahoo]

That includes distribution charge, transmisison charge, cost recovery charge, and a few other charges.

Including the charge charge...

 

[HFWR]

I am paying .18 a kWh up here in NH. Our utility costs are pretty high. That includes distribution charge, transmisison charge, cost recovery charge, and a few other charges.

Corrupt politicians' charge...

 

[NW-Bound]

Talk about hailstorms, solar panels are made with tempered glass that can withstand 1" hail blown at 50mph and squarely against them. So, rare and large hails can still damage them, but they say that it is somewhat rare.

Following is a link that shows very large hail the size of tangerines that did not break some of the panels: Solar Electric Power Discussion Forum by Northern Arizona Wind & Sun

 

[PaddyMac]

We suffered a huge hailstorm (more like 2" balls) in New Mexico. The solar panels had no problems. The insurance company found very minor damage on the roof and gave us $20K to replace it. We had a quote from a roofer who also installs panels, and we paid extra for a better roof. We had the original electrician come and uninstall the panels then reinstall them after the roof was done. The insurance company paid up an extra $1K or so for the electrician. All told, pretty good experience. The new roof cuts down the heat in the summer. No problem with leaks due to panels.

NM had a better rebate than they have now, but PNM gives us a credit for the electricity we generate as well as any extra we put back on the grid. So over the course of a year, they pay us about $800 or so in cash. Unfortunately our CPA says we have to declare that as taxable income...

 

[rodi]

We've looked at solar. But it doesn't pencil out, yet, for us.
- We're 12 years into our roof... so that's an issue.
- We're a low usage household: no AC, no incandescent bulbs, rarely out of the 2nd tier of use so we're paying fairly low rates. (They tier the rates - baseline is cheapest... then it steps up.)

We're planning on getting a system when the following happens
- Next car will be a plug in... but both current cars are reliable, paid for, not in need of replacement. Plug in car will kick up our usage.
- When it's time to redo the roof.

I figure we'll be ready in about 10 years.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Dang, what do they fuel those power plants with, gold?

Natural gas, since nothing else meets the emissions requirements, and although I live in a fairly dense suburban neighborhood adjacent to Sacramento suburbia, I'm on the edge of a rural county and get to pay extra for running all the wire to people who chose to live in the woods, but don't have to pay extra for the pleasure. Oh, and Pacific Gas and Electric sucks.

 

[meierlde]

Natural gas, since nothing else meets the emissions requirements, and although I live in a fairly dense suburban neighborhood adjacent to Sacramento suburbia, I'm on the edge of a rural county and get to pay extra for running all the wire to people who chose to live in the woods, but don't have to pay extra for the pleasure. Oh, and Pacific Gas and Electric sucks.

Of course you have electric rates set there by the Peoples Utility Commission of California, which encourages conservation by tiering rates. In most central states the rates are flat in co-oops with no incentives, the goal being to give the lowest cost to all members.

 

[REWahoo]

In most central states the rates are flat in co-oops with no incentives, the goal being to give the lowest cost to all members.

And if someone wants service to the house they are building out in the sticks, they have to pay to have the lines run, not everyone else in the co-op.

 

[meierlde]

It very much depends on how far in the sticks one is, a mile from the nearest service yes, but if service is a few hundred feet away then it is a different matter. One local coop gives a 2k credit, which might amount to a new pole. The local municipal utility says it will pay for the first 1200 feet of line extension.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I think we do both, which is also common in CA, we charge extra for new power installs in rural areas, and then also charge higher rates.

I'm sure there is some triple dipping going on, I just don't know what it is and don't want to think about it. I'm about $5 away in additional taxes to want to flee this state for one where they won't waste my money.

 

[Nords]

We are working with a PV company to install a 9.7 KW PV system on our home.Anybody else considering solar? Anybody with solar have any suggestions for anything they wish they would have done differently with the install?

Damn that's a big system. Have you looked into installing solar water heating, EnergyStar appliances, and other ways to reduce your energy use? They're usually cheaper than buying extra kilowatts and they have a fast payback.

In addition to doing your own calculations on a website, you might also want to visit someone in your neighborhood who has a system. Some PV companies do solar open houses, or you could just leave a note in the homeowner's mailbox. Chances are pretty high that you'll get a proud PV owner who'll be happy to show off their system and help you decide what you want for yours.

Most of your payback depends on this FPL rebate. It'd be a good idea to have your own "Plan B" for when the contractor calls back to tell you that you're not getting as much rebate as you expected.

They are rated to withstand 150 mph winds. My roof is not. They use a three rail system to provide extra strength required to achieve the wind rating. I'll have to ask my insurance company but likely may affect my regular home owners, not storm coverage.

You may want to get a second opinion on that third rail from someone who's not selling hardware to you. I think all of the installations around here are two rails.

Unless you're mounting your panels on a pergola, that 150mph wind is not going to be blowing straight up against the entire panel from underneath. Even then...

I am curious to know if solar panels mounted on a roof will increase the expense of roof replacement. Or the incidents of roof leaks. Any statistics on that?

There's a certain amount of labor to remove & reinstall an array, so it depends on who does the labor-- you on your own, or the PV installer, or paying the roofer. We've installed/removed/reinstalled our array on our own, and it's not rocket science. If you drill a hole in the wrong place then you patch it and try again in the right place. You may not be as experienced as a roofer, but you'll be a lot more cautious & careful.

The array mount starts with bolts & flashings sticking out of the roof beams. Once the array and the rails are removed, the roofers can work around the bolts and reinstall the flashings. Or you can remove all the hardware and start over when the roofers leave.

PV mounts & flashings have made a lot of progress in the last decade. Once they're installed they're no more likely to leak than anything else sticking up through the roof (like a sewage vent). Even if you stuck a mount through the ceiling (for a conversation starter?) the flashing would divert rainwater away from it.

If your array is installed by a roofer then it's warrantied against leaks. We've had far more leaks from other parts of the roofer's work than from anything we did on our own PV array.

I wonder if a PV array offers enough shade/cover to make a roof last longer, but I haven't seen any stats on that. All our roof damage has come from the wind chewing on ridges & peaks, not from the PV array.

 

[NW-Bound]

Not only that we are an internet traffic hog, we are also an electric energy hog.

Our lowest monthly consumption is 1286 kWh in April, and the highest is 3364 kWhr in August. It's hot here, folks! I only set my thermostat at 78F.

Before people here crucify me, I need to hear from other SW dwellers, who will come to my defense.

 

[Nords]

Before people here crucify me, I need to hear from other SW dwellers, who will come to my defense.

I'll bet you mean SW Mainland dwellers...

 

[Throwdownmyaceinthehole]

Over here in Australia, almost all houses have at least solar water heaters and definitely any new gubmint or oldie houses have them at construction.

 

[Midpack]

I can't see any good reason to force these on the public. That has the unintended consequence of slowing progress. Why bother putting R&D into making them better/cheaper, when you have a captive audience buying them at the current prices?

Haven't they already?

Breakdown for 9660 KW system

Gross PV Cost: $3.6/W $34,776
FPL Rebate $2/W -$19,320
Fed Inc Tax Credit 30% -$10,432
inc tax on rebate + $3,864
Discount on Pre Pay $.2/w - $1,932

Net Investment $6,956

 

[Texas Proud]

Not only that we are an internet traffic hog, we are also an electric energy hog.

Our lowest monthly consumption is 1286 kWh in April, and the highest is 3364 kWhr in August. It's hot here, folks! I only set my thermostat at 78F.

Before people here crucify me, I need to hear from other SW dwellers, who will come to my defense.

Do you have extra insulation

Our house had extra insulation, radiant barrier and sun blocking screens on the windows in the back... but, I think the best 'insulation' are all the tall pine trees that block most of the sun in the afternoon.

Our highest usage this year was just over 1600kWh... and we have it set at 76 most of the time... the humidity is bad if set higher....

 

[Texas Proud]

Haven't they already?

Not really.... they skew the buying decision a lot with the big rebates, but they are not mandatory (at least yet).....

 

[NW-Bound]

Over here in Australia, almost all houses have at least solar water heaters and definitely any new gubmint or oldie houses have them at construction.

When I was in Haifa for work-related travel, I observed that nearly all houses and buildings had water solar heaters. An Israeli engineer explained that construction permits mandated that a solar installation be included in any remodel or new construction.

I had solar water panels on my roof, until due to neglect they froze during a brief freeze one winter. I was mad at myself for allowing that to happen, so forced myself to fix them, which involved a lot of work. I bought a torch and learned to braze copper in the process (not solder, which every homeowner should learn to do), something a bit satisfying to a DIY'er.

Still have not put it back, after I had the tile roof repaired due to an unrelated leak. Need to find a better way for attachment to that tile roof than what the original installer did for the previous home owner.

 

[HFWR]

My usage for the past year. The base used is pretty low, but the summer bills are another story...

 

[ERD50]

Well, top down solutions aren't my cup-o-tea either, but, in general I think solar is one good idea as a solution for cheaper, cleaner, domestically-produced energy, and we should encourage it, albeit wisely.

The 'wisely' part seems to be the tough one. Look at the subsidies in the OP:

'Other People' are paying $27,820 to install solar panels on one person's house, so that one person can save $2,100/year. Is that wise? And since a lot of that money probably has to be upfront, this means that only well-to-do people can take advantage of this. Can't the well-to-do pay their own?

Environmentalists should be the ones most against these kinds of subsidies. If you want to promote 'green' energy, can't we get a lot more bang for our buck than dumping $27,820 on one person, and all that is accomplished is a single installation?

Perhaps a pay-at-the-[-]pump[/-] meter scheme, such as the higher fuel taxes that are suggested as one way to improve auto mpg. If you live in a really energy-intensive home, you pay more and more, on a graduated scale. Then let the home owner decide which way to lower usage and/or improve efficiency, or not.

Having the price reflect the true costs (difficult to determine, but we could take a stab at it) does seem to be the best way to help reduce consumption. As I've said before, MPG is a poor measure. It does not account for car-pooling in a larger, but lesser MPG vehicle. No credit for reducing miles driven, etc. It seems that politicians have decided that raising prices is bad, but 'gift-giving' in the form of subsidies/rebates is good. So that's what we get.

I drive few miles. I want to make the choice of MPG versus any increased cost. The 'one-size-fits-all' crowd says MPG will save money, but probably only if you drive average or higher miles.

Haven't they already?

Not quite sure what you were referring to, but if you are saying that the subsidies/rebates are 'forcing' people to put in solar, OK. I don't like that either, or forced building codes.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Do you have extra insulation

Our house had extra insulation, radiant barrier and sun blocking screens on the windows in the back... but, I think the best 'insulation' are all the tall pine trees that block most of the sun in the afternoon.

Our highest usage this year was just over 1600kWh... and we have it set at 76 most of the time... the humidity is bad if set higher....

I have no big trees for shades as this is a typical city lot, and the house orientation does not allow for large trees that would be between my house and a neighbor's. The pool pump also helps the electric meter spin.

The original 2,200-sq.ft. house was built with 2x4. Not much I can do for the wall insulation, or for the vaulted ceilings that follow the roof line (no crawl space or attic). The 500-sq.ft. addition I put on was built with 2x6 and insulated reasonably well.

 

[Midpack]

I can't see any good reason to force these on the public. That has the unintended consequence of slowing progress. Why bother putting R&D into making them better/cheaper, when you have a captive audience buying them at the current prices?

Haven't they already?

Not quite sure what you were referring to, but if you are saying that the subsidies/rebates are 'forcing' people to put in solar, OK. I don't like that either, or forced building codes.

No, I'm saying they're already forcing the public to pay thru very heavy subsidization of solar in the OP's example...not much difference IMO.

 

[NW-Bound]

During a congressional debate on an energy subsidy (not necessarily solar, forgot what it was), a congressman said that

"Adam Smith would be spinning so fast in his grave, that he would qualify as an alternative energy source".​

 

[ERD50]

No, I'm saying they're already forcing the public to pay thru very heavy subsidization of solar in the OP's example...not much difference IMO.

True. I guess this is so 'hidden' from most people, they don't feel the pain directly.

I was tempted to write my utility to tell them I wanted to opt out of some of these programs. I had no interest in seeing part of my bill go towards some one else's solar installation. I'm sure I'd get a form letter response, not worth my 'energy' to write the letter.

-ERD50

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Most of your payback depends on this FPL rebate. It'd be a good idea to have your own "Plan B" for when the contractor calls back to tell you that you're not getting as much rebate as you expected.

Yep, PG&E worked mighty hard to avoid paying me a $600 energy rebate for duct sealing ~5 years ago. I kicked out the installer and brought someone else in to finish the job, but the original guy didn't do the rebate paperwork they were required to do, so PG&E said "sure, our rebate process doesn't say the homeowner has to do the paperwork...and in fact they can't, but we're not going to pay anyhow".

I made 20 calls to everyone in that company. I'm sure that in the aggregate they spent more denying me the rebate than it would have cost to pay it.

They stuffed me on an energy star dishwasher rebate as well.

So make sure someone puts in writing that you're going to get that big rebate, and who will make it right for you if the utility fails to come through. If your utility is PG&E, be very, very careful.