Is now a good time to be thinking about home solar?

[Errollyn]

We actually met him at his other job selling furniture.

Red flag for sure! I wouldn't count on his company being around long enough to service the warranty.


We're in the process of getting solar in Missouri. We've got our first bid and I have a meeting with a second company tonight. These are really the only two solar companies in my area with enough history to trust. I'll try to update here once I have both bids for comparison.

 

[tryan]

Been thru 2 solar assessments with Sunrun at the lake house:

1. 2 years ago - You pay and get the fed credit OR LEASE the panels for an amount which they warranty reduces your electric bill after the lease payment....THEY get the fed credit. Panels were too inefficient for the warrantee. Dead deal.

2. Last month - They now offer financing at fixed rates so you get the fed credit ... same warrantees. AND panels are more efficient. BUT they needed me to clear cut the trees from the south facing roof. This would violate state law as I am too close to water. Dead deal.

All done with solar. Your results may vary.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Red flag for sure! I wouldn't count on his company being around long enough to service the warranty.


We're in the process of getting solar in Missouri. We've got our first bid and I have a meeting with a second company tonight. These are really the only two solar companies in my area with enough history to trust. I'll try to update here once I have both bids for comparison.

Yes please keep us updated on your experience. Would like to know how it works out for you.

We went to one of those home shows a few weeks ago and it seemed like the only ones not selling solar were the food vendors. I guess they make enough selling $16.00 burgers?
It really felt like the Solar Circus there. Glad we got out of there before signed up for any more solar consults.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Been thru 2 solar assessments with Sunrun at the lake house:

1. 2 years ago - You pay and get the fed credit OR LEASE the panels for an amount which they warranty reduces your electric bill after the lease payment....THEY get the fed credit. Panels were too inefficient for the warrantee. Dead deal.

2. Last month - They now offer financing at fixed rates so you get the fed credit ... same warrantees. AND panels are more efficient. BUT they needed me to clear cut the trees from the south facing roof. This would violate state law as I am too close to water. Dead deal.

All done with solar. Your results may vary.

So did you do much research before selecting Sunrun for quotes?
What did you like or not like about them?
Would you recommend them or was tree issue a big oversight on their part?

 

[tryan]

Well .... Sunrun is the only game in town in this neck of the woods. Was referred by neighbors .... they stood to make 1k if my job completed.

The two people I know who used them had great experiences. Little bit interesting, one of them took the lease deal and needed to sell their house. A FULL price offer was lost when the buyer read the transferable 25 year lease on the panels. Didn't want the problem.

 

[Koolau]

Mentioned before that I have no option for solar, but I would be most concerned about picking a company that would be around when I needed help with it. Years ago (many years) we put in a hot tub. All kinds of guarantees, etc. Of course after the first leak, the company put us off, then said it was our fault (say what??) then was no where to be found.

The company we found who would actually w*rk on it said stuff like "Oh, they did this all wrong. This is gonna cost a bunch to set right, blah, blah, blah."

It's an age old problem, and solar seems the most likely to have service problems because the whole industry is so fluid right now (panel prices dropping, service folks demanding huge wages, new battery technology, EVs out the wazoo, etc., etc.) Who was it who said "It was the best of times. It was the worst of times." (Yeah, I actually know.) Point being that solar is coming into its own and 10 or 15 years from now, we'll all look back and tell our stories (good and bad) about how we adapted to solar. Now, it's a crap shoot for many - not me, of course, so YMMV.

 

[Errollyn]

Here are three quotes I got for solar. Unless I'm missing something, Bid A seems like the clear winner. Gotta talk to the wife about tonight, and then I'll probably accept that proposal.

 

[2HOTinPHX]

Here are three quotes I got for solar. Unless I'm missing something, Bid A seems like the clear winner. Gotta talk to the wife about tonight, and then I'll probably accept that proposal.

Interesting thanks for posting info. What source are you using for reviews on the companies?

 

[Errollyn]

Interesting thanks for posting info. What source are you using for reviews on the companies?

Just the reviews on their Google business pages. Not sure if there's a better place to look, but these bidders had a lot of reviews to comb through.

 

[ncbill]

Here are three quotes I got for solar. Unless I'm missing something, Bid A seems like the clear winner. Gotta talk to the wife about tonight, and then I'll probably accept that proposal.

Roof mounted?

If so, is the roof new enough not to have to replace before solar installation?

If the roof starts leaking a few years down the road who covers the cost of fixing it?

 

[Errollyn]

Roof mounted?

If so, is the roof new enough not to have to replace before solar installation?

If the roof starts leaking a few years down the road who covers the cost of fixing it?

Nope, it'll be mounted on a rack system in my pasture. About $15,000 of the total cost comes from the mount and $40/foot for trenching back to my house. I'm not sure about roof-mounted systems, because it's something I didn't even consider.

 

[Errollyn]

Here are three quotes I got for solar. Unless I'm missing something, Bid A seems like the clear winner. Gotta talk to the wife about tonight, and then I'll probably accept that proposal.

I should add...originally I was thinking to do this with a battery backup, but batteries are so expensive we're just doing the solar now. I made sure with each installer that we can easily add batteries to their system down the road, which helps spread out the cost a bit. In the meantime, the grid will basically serve as our battery--when we generate more power than we need (during the daytime) that will get sent to the grid so the power company can sell it to other customers. Then, when we are using more power than we're generating (during the nighttime) those kW will flow back to us in the form of credits. When I think of the grid as my battery, I don't miss getting a battery so much. And we'll get those installed in a year or two after the shock of the solar purchase wears off.

 

[Samsung4321]

Here are three quotes I got for solar.

Your grid power costs half, system costs 4 times more and payback is 3 times longer than equivalent roof top systems in Australia.

Payback is time to recover capital expenditure.
Payoff is time to recover capital expenditure and earnings from an alternative investment.

Nope, it'll be mounted on a rack system in my pasture. About $15,000 of the total cost comes from the mount and $40/foot for trenching back to my house.

Rooftop installation cost in Australia is about 50% of panel + inverter cost. Total installed cost typically $A 1 / W = $USA 0.7 / W. Your quotes ~$USA 3 / W.

If return on investment is the dominant criteria I suggest looking deeper.

Payoff time; 7% alternative investment returns, electricity savings 15% of initial capital cost of 100%, system value 0% at end:

= NPER(7%, 15%, -100%, 0%)
= 9.3 years.

15% / y of $30,000 = $4,500 / y electricity must be saved / sold.
$4,500 / $0.1 = 45,000 kWh / y.
2022 usage = 18,000 kWh / y.


Would need to eliminate 18,000 kWh / y power imported from grid and sell 27,000 kWh @ $0.1 / kWh into grid for total production of 45,000 kWh / y but system rated to produce 15,000 kWh / y.

 

[Errollyn]

Your grid power costs half, system costs 4 times more and payback is 3 times longer than equivalent roof top systems in Australia.

Payback is time to recover capital expenditure.
Payoff is time to recover capital expenditure and earnings from an alternative investment.

Rooftop installation cost in Australia is about 50% of panel + inverter cost. Total installed cost typically $A 1 / W = $USA 0.7 / W. Your quotes ~$USA 3 / W.

If return on investment is the dominant criteria I suggest looking deeper.

Payoff time; 7% alternative investment returns, electricity savings 15% of initial capital cost of 100%, system value 0% at end:

= NPER(7%, 15%, -100%, 0%)
= 9.3 years.

15% / y of $30,000 = $4,500 / y electricity must be saved / sold.
$4,500 / $0.1 = 45,000 kWh / y.
2022 usage = 18,000 kWh / y.


Would need to eliminate 18,000 kWh / y power imported from grid and sell 27,000 kWh @ $0.1 / kWh into grid for total production of 45,000 kWh / y but system rated to produce 15,000 kWh / y.

Thanks for the insight and perspective. I've heard that the US has comparatively high solar costs versus Australia...I'm not sure why that's the case, but always assumed it had something to do with you guys being so much closer to where all the panels are produced. I've been watching the solar subreddit for the last year, and my Bid A is a reasonable price versus other proposals I see people getting in the US.



For what it's worth, ROI isn't my driving motivation, and obviously we want to get a good deal. That's why I got three proposals. I'm a bit of a tree hugger and I'm lucky enough to be able to afford this, so in a sense I'm okay with being an "early adopter" as the costs (hopefully) fall in coming years. (I say early adopter knowing that people have been using solar for decades.)


We did accept Bid A last night. Down payment is 10%, with 40% due at installation, and the remaining 50% due when the utility company inspects it and gives approval to turn it on. They said it'll be about a month before they get started on the install. Pretty stoked.

 

[Samsung4321]

tree hugger

My city has organised 100% renewable electricity, has many more trees than homes and so much rooftop and other PV that the local grid saturates and the feed in tariff has dropped to make PV return on investment non-profitable.

So I do not need PV on my roof - my city and neighbours provide cheaper electricity than I could.

 

[FIREarly]

This is the main reason I won't consider solar panels on our current house. The current shingles appear to be about 12 years old, matching other renovations to the house. With care to kill mold on the roof every year, they should last as long as we will be in the house.

Putting panels on a roof with only 10-15 years of life left would be a poor decision.

A quality GC will not install solar panels on a roof that is not structurally strong/sound for the panels.

Going to check out the site checkbook.org. lots of quality info in this forum post!

 

[Jimonlimon]

We are in year 8 of a 6kw solar array on our roof. Break-even for us was at about year 6- mostly because our rates from Southern California Edison Company are very high and we got in under the early very favorable "net energy metering 1.0" terms.

I suggest consider these items in no particular order:
1. Try to find a good local company to do the installation. Some of the big outfits provide good value and oversight of qualified local installers, others just try to sell and then bid the work out to lowest bidder. Do some research.
2. Buy, don't lease. Leasing will have lower upfront costs but cost more in the long term. Also a leased system can be trouble if you go to sell the house, need work on the roof, etc.
3. Understand the money- Tax credits, contract with your utility, etc.
This is critical and very complex. If you need an electrical panel upgrade or roof replacement you may be able to include that in the project cost for both financing and tax credits.
4. Right-size. Depending on your utility company contract, it may be beneficial to have a small system that only meets average afternoon demand or it might be good to have a system that meets 100% of your current use plus extra for future loads (electric cars, etc.)
5. Batteries are expensive and have a shorter lifespan than the rest of the system. Be skeptical of return on investment claims that aren't based on your situation.
6. Roof leaks can happen. A solar carport may be a good way to go if you wanted a carport anyways. Otherwise consider the impact of a leak and whether your garage would be a good place for the panels.
7. Dirty panels become very inefficient. Be sure the design allows you to clean the panels easily and safely. If you plan to pay someone to clean the panels include that in your cost analysis. (I clean mine about 6 times per year because it's easy)
8. Type of components- panels are the sexy thing but they all work about the same and any decent panel will work fine for 30 years. Racking and installation is a very big part of your project cost so fewer high efficiency panels (even though the panels cost more per watt) will often cost less than more, lower efficiency panels. Inverters have a lot more variety, get estimates for conventional string inverters (one big inverter takes power from many panels) and micro-inverters (each panel has its own little inverter). Micro-inverters are great if your panels don't all face exactly the same direction or have any shading.
9. Prices of components are still coming down and quality is going up (more slowly than 10 years ago). Don't oversize "just in case" because by the time you need more capacity it's likely components will cost less. Consider future system expansion and ask the designer to plan how you could add additional capacity.

 

[FIREarly]

We are in year 8 of a 6kw solar array on our roof. Break-even for us was at about year 6- mostly because our rates from Southern California Edison Company are very high and we got in under the early very favorable "net energy metering 1.0" terms.

I suggest consider these items in no particular order:
1. Try to find a good local company to do the installation. Some of the big outfits provide good value and oversight of qualified local installers, others just try to sell and then bid the work out to lowest bidder. Do some research.
2. Buy, don't lease. Leasing will have lower upfront costs but cost more in the long term. Also a leased system can be trouble if you go to sell the house, need work on the roof, etc.
3. Understand the money- Tax credits, contract with your utility, etc.
This is critical and very complex. If you need an electrical panel upgrade or roof replacement you may be able to include that in the project cost for both financing and tax credits.
4. Right-size. Depending on your utility company contract, it may be beneficial to have a small system that only meets average afternoon demand or it might be good to have a system that meets 100% of your current use plus extra for future loads (electric cars, etc.)
5. Batteries are expensive and have a shorter lifespan than the rest of the system. Be skeptical of return on investment claims that aren't based on your situation.
6. Roof leaks can happen. A solar carport may be a good way to go if you wanted a carport anyways. Otherwise consider the impact of a leak and whether your garage would be a good place for the panels.
7. Dirty panels become very inefficient. Be sure the design allows you to clean the panels easily and safely. If you plan to pay someone to clean the panels include that in your cost analysis. (I clean mine about 6 times per year because it's easy)
8. Type of components- panels are the sexy thing but they all work about the same and any decent panel will work fine for 30 years. Racking and installation is a very big part of your project cost so fewer high efficiency panels (even though the panels cost more per watt) will often cost less than more, lower efficiency panels. Inverters have a lot more variety, get estimates for conventional string inverters (one big inverter takes power from many panels) and micro-inverters (each panel has its own little inverter). Micro-inverters are great if your panels don't all face exactly the same direction or have any shading.
9. Prices of components are still coming down and quality is going up (more slowly than 10 years ago). Don't oversize "just in case" because by the time you need more capacity it's likely components will cost less. Consider future system expansion and ask the designer to plan how you could add additional capacity.

+1 great information!

 

[Jimonlimon]

Here are three quotes I got for solar. Unless I'm missing something, Bid A seems like the clear winner. Gotta talk to the wife about tonight, and then I'll probably accept that proposal.

I agree on Bid A. You might also consider downsizing a bit.

With your low energy costs and fairly high system cost your payback appears very long. Notwithstanding the warranty, I think 20 years is when you will start to spend money on replacing inverters, the occasional early failure panel, racking damaged by winds, corrosion, etc.

What sort of utility cost escalation did you use for the analysis? For example when we installed our system I estimated an 8-1/2 year break even point, but as we watched the local utility rates go up our break even ended up at about 6 years. (Current rates are over $0.30/kwh and high use puts you into a $0.45 tier). If your analysis was for flat prices or normal inflation, it's probably good as a hedge against higher rates of inflation for energy. On the other hand some solar sellers predict 10+% annual energy inflation to make their break-even point appear sooner.

Regarding the tax credits- be sure you have enough tax obligation to take full advantage of the credits.

 

[Errollyn]

I agree on Bid A. You might also consider downsizing a bit.

With your low energy costs and fairly high system cost your payback appears very long. Notwithstanding the warranty, I think 20 years is when you will start to spend money on replacing inverters, the occasional early failure panel, racking damaged by winds, corrosion, etc.

What sort of utility cost escalation did you use for the analysis? For example when we installed our system I estimated an 8-1/2 year break even point, but as we watched the local utility rates go up our break even ended up at about 6 years. (Current rates are over $0.30/kwh and high use puts you into a $0.45 tier). If your analysis was for flat prices or normal inflation, it's probably good as a hedge against higher rates of inflation for energy. On the other hand some solar sellers predict 10+% annual energy inflation to make their break-even point appear sooner.

Regarding the tax credits- be sure you have enough tax obligation to take full advantage of the credits.

Thanks for the feedback. We did indeed sign the contract for Bid A, and already made the 10% down payment. The utility escalation rate used for the payback period was 3.3%, which seems like it may be on the conservative side so we may see an earlier payback than expected like you did.

And we're not retired yet--shooting for 2024--so we still have plenty of tax liability to get the full credit. That's one of a couple things making us do this now instead of later--the others include a credit from our utility that expires at the end of this year, and knowing that it'll be much harder (psychologically) to make a big purchase like this once we're on a more restrictive retirement income. The hope is that essentially eliminating our electric bill (which includes our vehicle fuel cost because we drive electric) will give us more financial flexibility in retirement.

You mentioned earlier about cleaning your panels. Ours will be ground-mounted, so I was planning to get a long window-washing pole to clean ours often because we live in the country and get tons of tree pollen from April through September. What do you use for cleaning?

 

[Jimonlimon]

…

You mentioned earlier about cleaning your panels. Ours will be ground-mounted, so I was planning to get a long window-washing pole to clean ours often because we live in the country and get tons of tree pollen from April through September. What do you use for cleaning?

My roof is flat with panels on angled mounts so similar. I just go up on the roof.

Over eight years I’m sure I’ve washed them at least 40 times and I often play around with the method.

I initially used a hose end garden sprayer with mild detergent. If they’re extra dirty/greasy I use a soft brush on a pole.

Since we’re in perpetual drought I’ve switched to a small pressure washer because it uses way less water. It dispenses soap with a low pressure nozzle then I switch to a moderate pressure nozzle for rinsing.

Sometimes if it’s lightly raining, I use a small pump sprayer to get some soap on and brush them, then let the rain rinse them.

We usually don’t get a drop of rain between April and November so they don’t clean themselves. We also had an issue trying to have them not visible from the road so they are really in a much flatter angle than they should be. I realize that because if it rains after they’re dirty, the last row of cells doesn’t rinse off. At least a 20% slope And/or frameless panels would prevent this problem.

 

[Koolau]

My roof is flat with panels on angled mounts so similar. I just go up on the roof.

Over eight years I’m sure I’ve washed them at least 40 times and I often play around with the method.

I initially used a hose end garden sprayer with mild detergent. If they’re extra dirty/greasy I use a soft brush on a pole.

Since we’re in perpetual drought I’ve switched to a small pressure washer because it uses way less water. It dispenses soap with a low pressure nozzle then I switch to a moderate pressure nozzle for rinsing.

Sometimes if it’s lightly raining, I use a small pump sprayer to get some soap on and brush them, then let the rain rinse them.

We usually don’t get a drop of rain between April and November so they don’t clean themselves. We also had an issue trying to have them not visible from the road so they are really in a much flatter angle than they should be. I realize that because if it rains after they’re dirty, the last row of cells doesn’t rinse off. At least a 20% slope And/or frameless panels would prevent this problem.

Have you had any extra issues with roof leaks once adding the panels? I would think all the roof traffic and installation holes and extra weight might crack the roofing. DW's small business had a flat roof. It leaked fairy often and required significant maintenance.

 

[Jimonlimon]

Have you had any extra issues with roof leaks once adding the panels? I would think all the roof traffic and installation holes and extra weight might crack the roofing. DW's small business had a flat roof. It leaked fairy often and required significant maintenance.

Yes. Once on the garage and once right over my pillow! Each time was where one of the feet ended up in standing water due to heavy rain. I couldn't see where the water was getting in but cleaning and sealing with a flexible elastomeric coating seemed to work. We're going to re-seal all the roof penetrations then coat the whole roof with a fibered, aluminized coating this spring.

The nice thing about a flat roof is that it's easy to work on. The bad thing is as the building materials settle you tend to get large areas of shallow (1/2 to 1") ponding. (I think the specification was for 1/4" per foot slope; 1/2" would have been much better and still work fine with our space. 1" wouldn't work due to the fairly low parapets)

 

[Koolau]

Yes. Once on the garage and once right over my pillow! Each time was where one of the feet ended up in standing water due to heavy rain. I couldn't see where the water was getting in but cleaning and sealing with a flexible elastomeric coating seemed to work. We're going to re-seal all the roof penetrations then coat the whole roof with a fibered, aluminized coating this spring.

The nice thing about a flat roof is that it's easy to work on. The bad thing is as the building materials settle you tend to get large areas of shallow (1/2 to 1") ponding. (I think the specification was for 1/4" per foot slope; 1/2" would have been much better and still work fine with our space. 1" wouldn't work due to the fairly low parapets)

I'm sorry to hear of your issues. Such things were just routine at DWs business. She found a very good roofer who eventually did the roof and most of the leaks stopped until it was time to completely replace the roof. A "sudden" spate of leaks signaled that it was time. Best of luck.

 

[Errollyn]

Here are three quotes I got for solar. Unless I'm missing something, Bid A seems like the clear winner. Gotta talk to the wife about tonight, and then I'll probably accept that proposal.

Welp, it took about three months between getting bids and switching on our completed solar system in mid-May. We're very happy with the results, and our power bill was negative this month. One unexpected result is that we now "gamify" our power usage, waiting until we've got good electrical production before we use power-hungry appliances.