- Joined
- Oct 13, 2010
- Messages
- 10,797
Just bought a car for my daughter this afternoon.
It was about as painful of an experience as I expected it to be.
Months ago I experimented (using a spamgourmet email address and not real phone number) with TRUECAR and CarSaver (put in 33160 or somewhere in S. Florida zip code for that one). I got back a few specific prices and tons of emails saying I needed to come in to test drive. I ignored all those emails.
What I learned from my experimentation with those services is that the dealers can respond with wildly different pricing, all the way from almost paying full price MSRP down to having me wondering if I really showed up would they really sell it to me at that price.
Then, reading more, I realized that the dealers can and will add dealer fees, dealer accessories, etc to the price you see there. So I realized you need to email them and get the out the door price (or more likely, out the door less taxes).
So that was months ago, just playing around. Then I got serious last week and actually put in the right zip code for where I'd be this past weekend. I got back some responses for specific cars with specific pricing. I started emailing back and forth, clarifying that I was seeing an all-in price, and the only thing to be added was government stuff. I had three deals, but only two were responsive to my emails. I think the third did not have a specific car that fit the criterion. So I had two prices in-hand.
TrueCar has, famously, the bell curve, but since that doesn't include dealer options and charges, it's not quite as helpful as it might seem at first. They have something called "Program Estimate". I compared the prices I got back in emails to the program estimate. One was priced 2.5% below that. The other was just a fraction below that.
So, with those understood prices in hand, I called the contact on the one with the 2.5% below program estimate, asked if they still had the car (yes), said I'd be there in an hour, and took a test drive. The painful part then started where we sat for what seemed like hours saying the same thing "the car is not exactly what we want". By the time we left, we were at 2.75% below program estimate (so below the price on the email). This was without really trying to get the price down. We finally left with the idea to "sleep on it".
So, having that price, knowing we could go back and get what I thought was a pretty good deal, we went to the other dealer, which had the higher price (relative to program estimate). This car had a bit different trim line, but I already knew that people generally paid $1100 more for this trim/features. So I took the price for the other car, added $1000 and said I think that would be fair. We were MILES apart because they "forgot" that the negotiations were supposed to start out at the price I got from the email. In other words, they were trying to get me to negotiate down from some arbitrarily high deal they worked-up at first. Then the theatrics continued as some white shirt slick guy came by and said it was his fault (so as not to tarnish our salesman, I'm sure, who was very concerned about the survey we would take post-sale). Anyway, we weren't too far apart ($500 or $600) once they wrote-up the TrueCar deal, but they weren't budging. Some other guy came-by and said "If I could hit your number, would you buy this car?" And I though we were getting somewhere! I said yeah, that's what I've been saying since I sat down. He went away and the salesman came back and said they can't do my number (now ripping hair out, but not showing it). So we resign ourselves to going back to the other dealership.
Making the turn onto the highway, not 30 seconds down the road, we get a call on the cell phone. They can do my number after all! So we drive around the block and start the paperwork.
They weren't done selling, though. They had extended warranties, paint protection, blah, blah, blah. Our salesman did a few pitches, then the business office did a few pitches. She knew we weren't buying, and said, "Yeah, but I've got to go through all of this stuff".
Turns out some of that stuff they were trying to sell were already on the car, and we ended-up with it (the paint protection, fabric protection).
So, In summary, I stayed completely out of the detailed numbers. I really only looked at the bottom line. I figured if I started looking at the details, I'd be in the weeds, and they'd have me where they wanted me. I started with what looked like the dealer with the best deal in the email, then once I had visited that one, visited a second one and used the first for leverage.
So, here's the specifics:
Prius V Three: 28060 + 40 + 885 (MSRP, Ad Fee, Dest Fee) <<< This is standard stuff
Overpriced crap they add: 399 + 199 + 69 + 699 (mats, paint prot, USB cables, toyoguard)
Discounts: -5697
Dealer overpriced crap: 602 (never did figure out what this was for)
Dealer doc charge: 649 (this is kind of standard, albeit high)
So the total of those is 25905, which is 3.5% below the 'program estimate' of 26839. I don't know if it's valid to compare to program estimate, but I figured it's better than list price.
Although I think I got a good deal, I'm not sure of that, haha! I do know that I spent as much time as I could manage on this process. I'm reminded that buying a new car is a RPITA.
It was about as painful of an experience as I expected it to be.
Months ago I experimented (using a spamgourmet email address and not real phone number) with TRUECAR and CarSaver (put in 33160 or somewhere in S. Florida zip code for that one). I got back a few specific prices and tons of emails saying I needed to come in to test drive. I ignored all those emails.
What I learned from my experimentation with those services is that the dealers can respond with wildly different pricing, all the way from almost paying full price MSRP down to having me wondering if I really showed up would they really sell it to me at that price.
Then, reading more, I realized that the dealers can and will add dealer fees, dealer accessories, etc to the price you see there. So I realized you need to email them and get the out the door price (or more likely, out the door less taxes).
So that was months ago, just playing around. Then I got serious last week and actually put in the right zip code for where I'd be this past weekend. I got back some responses for specific cars with specific pricing. I started emailing back and forth, clarifying that I was seeing an all-in price, and the only thing to be added was government stuff. I had three deals, but only two were responsive to my emails. I think the third did not have a specific car that fit the criterion. So I had two prices in-hand.
TrueCar has, famously, the bell curve, but since that doesn't include dealer options and charges, it's not quite as helpful as it might seem at first. They have something called "Program Estimate". I compared the prices I got back in emails to the program estimate. One was priced 2.5% below that. The other was just a fraction below that.
So, with those understood prices in hand, I called the contact on the one with the 2.5% below program estimate, asked if they still had the car (yes), said I'd be there in an hour, and took a test drive. The painful part then started where we sat for what seemed like hours saying the same thing "the car is not exactly what we want". By the time we left, we were at 2.75% below program estimate (so below the price on the email). This was without really trying to get the price down. We finally left with the idea to "sleep on it".
So, having that price, knowing we could go back and get what I thought was a pretty good deal, we went to the other dealer, which had the higher price (relative to program estimate). This car had a bit different trim line, but I already knew that people generally paid $1100 more for this trim/features. So I took the price for the other car, added $1000 and said I think that would be fair. We were MILES apart because they "forgot" that the negotiations were supposed to start out at the price I got from the email. In other words, they were trying to get me to negotiate down from some arbitrarily high deal they worked-up at first. Then the theatrics continued as some white shirt slick guy came by and said it was his fault (so as not to tarnish our salesman, I'm sure, who was very concerned about the survey we would take post-sale). Anyway, we weren't too far apart ($500 or $600) once they wrote-up the TrueCar deal, but they weren't budging. Some other guy came-by and said "If I could hit your number, would you buy this car?" And I though we were getting somewhere! I said yeah, that's what I've been saying since I sat down. He went away and the salesman came back and said they can't do my number (now ripping hair out, but not showing it). So we resign ourselves to going back to the other dealership.
Making the turn onto the highway, not 30 seconds down the road, we get a call on the cell phone. They can do my number after all! So we drive around the block and start the paperwork.
They weren't done selling, though. They had extended warranties, paint protection, blah, blah, blah. Our salesman did a few pitches, then the business office did a few pitches. She knew we weren't buying, and said, "Yeah, but I've got to go through all of this stuff".
Turns out some of that stuff they were trying to sell were already on the car, and we ended-up with it (the paint protection, fabric protection).
So, In summary, I stayed completely out of the detailed numbers. I really only looked at the bottom line. I figured if I started looking at the details, I'd be in the weeds, and they'd have me where they wanted me. I started with what looked like the dealer with the best deal in the email, then once I had visited that one, visited a second one and used the first for leverage.
So, here's the specifics:
Prius V Three: 28060 + 40 + 885 (MSRP, Ad Fee, Dest Fee) <<< This is standard stuff
Overpriced crap they add: 399 + 199 + 69 + 699 (mats, paint prot, USB cables, toyoguard)
Discounts: -5697
Dealer overpriced crap: 602 (never did figure out what this was for)
Dealer doc charge: 649 (this is kind of standard, albeit high)
So the total of those is 25905, which is 3.5% below the 'program estimate' of 26839. I don't know if it's valid to compare to program estimate, but I figured it's better than list price.
Although I think I got a good deal, I'm not sure of that, haha! I do know that I spent as much time as I could manage on this process. I'm reminded that buying a new car is a RPITA.