Sports car?

[OldShooter]

Woah! a REAL Cobra?! ...

Yup. CSX2429

​

I don't think you can lump the Porsche's in with the Beemers and Benzes. The Porsche's are generally acknowledged as being some of the best handling cars out there. ...

Well, I'll stipulate that they have a good reputation but IMO it's more due to good marketing than to the street cars being anything really exceptional. For example, the 911 design with that engine hung behind the rear axle derives from the VW beetle. It is not something a car designer starting with a blank sheet of paper would ever draw. But they invested a lot of marketing money, including doing a lot of racing, and built an image. One of the cliche 911racing images has a front view of a car storming through a corner with the inside front wheel lifted off the track surface. That's because there is a humongous front anti-roll (aka "sway") bar needed to reduce the adhesion of the front to balance the poor adhesion at the back due to the far aft CG. AFIK no serious Porsche race car ever used the rear engine design. Definitely nothing from the 904 (my dream car) forward. So the current cars benefit from the marketing legacy but they also, I'm sure, handle well.

Porsche also benefited from weak competition in the US market. The pony cars all featured oxcart (solid rear axle) suspensions. The Corvette suspensions were better but the cars were/are too heavy to really be a sports car. (I know, I know, some people will vehemently disagree.) Lotus had the Elan, which handled like a dream but was seriously compromised as a daily driver. The Lotus Seven and Europa were even less useful, but any of the three would blow a 911 into the weeds on a twisty course. Alfa was around for a while in the 70s, but with a hopelessly uncompetitive DeDion rear axle design.

Finally, even if there is a tiny advantage it will be invisible in a street car because they are driven at the limit only accidentally. A Good Thing, too, as being at the limit on the street is dangerous for many reasons. So ... no, I don't think the Porsches are anything special compared to other modern cars that are designed with similar objectives.

 

[bradaz2488]

Yup. CSX2429

​

Well, I'll stipulate that they have a good reputation but IMO it's more due to good marketing than to the street cars being anything really exceptional. For example, the 911 design with that engine hung behind the rear axle derives from the VW beetle. It is not something a car designer starting with a blank sheet of paper would ever draw. But they invested a lot of marketing money, including doing a lot of racing, and built an image. One of the cliche 911racing images has a front view of a car storming through a corner with the inside front wheel lifted off the track surface. That's because there is a humongous front anti-roll (aka "sway") bar needed to reduce the adhesion of the front to balance the poor adhesion at the back due to the far aft CG. AFIK no serious Porsche race car ever used the rear engine design. Definitely nothing from the 904 (my dream car) forward. So the current cars benefit from the marketing legacy but they also, I'm sure, handle well.

Porsche also benefited from weak competition in the US market. The pony cars all featured oxcart (solid rear axle) suspensions. The Corvette suspensions were better but the cars were/are too heavy to really be a sports car. (I know, I know, some people will vehemently disagree.) Lotus had the Elan, which handled like a dream but was seriously compromised as a daily driver. The Lotus Seven and Europa were even less useful, but any of the three would blow a 911 into the weeds on a twisty course. Alfa was around for a while in the 70s, but with a hopelessly uncompetitive DeDion rear axle design.

Finally, even if there is a tiny advantage it will be invisible in a street car because they are driven at the limit only accidentally. A Good Thing, too, as being at the limit on the street is dangerous for many reasons. So ... no, I don't think the Porsches are anything special compared to other modern cars that are designed with similar objectives.

It always amazes me... Why is talking about cars like taking about religion and politics. People trying to covert them over to their way of thinking. The fact is (money aside) he bought one of the top sports car in it class. I never understood why people want to shoot down other people cars. It's obvious you know a lot about cars, we get it. IMO if you are a real gear head or car guy you should be able to appreciate all cars for what they are. At the end of the day they are all just cars. Just be happy for him... I am...

 

[OldShooter]

It always amazes me... Why is talking about cars like taking about religion and politics. People trying to covert them over to their way of thinking. The fact is (money aside) he bought one of the top sports car in it class. I never understood why people want to shoot down other people cars. It's obvious you know a lot about cars, we get it. IMO if you are a real gear head or car guy you should be able to appreciate all cars for what they are. At the end of the day they are all just cars. Just be happy for him... I am...

Hmm ... I don't really have a favorite. I've owned most of them, though never a beemer. Came close a couple of times, though. Does @Cap_Scarlet have a Porsche? Maybe it is in an earlier post. Good for him. They are nice cars. I have had a couple. This time around I didn't buy one for reasons already stated, but that's a personal tradeoff.

Yes, they are all just cars. All have strengths and weaknesses that can be discussed (I thought) from an engineering point of view. Sorry if that got you spun up.

 

[bradaz2488]

Hmm ... I don't really have a favorite. I've owned most of them, though never a beemer. Came close a couple of times, though. Does @Cap_Scarlet have a Porsche? Maybe it is in an earlier post. Good for him. They are nice cars. I have had a couple. This time around I didn't buy one for reasons already stated, but that's a personal tradeoff.

Yes, they are all just cars. All have strengths and weaknesses that can be discussed (I thought) from an engineering point of view. Sorry if that got you spun up.

No Worries.. I was probably over reacting a little ... Yes, he is the OP and pulled the trigger on a new Porsche Boxster... I'm currently a Porsche guy but I like all cars. I go on car forums all the time and it always frustrates me when people buy a new/used car and others proceed to tell them them they did not buy the right car. Not saying that what you were doing, but based on your last post you are not really a Porsche fan. I will never understand the hate between Corvette and Porsche people and there is even hate between 911 and Boxster guys... Again, not say this applies to you, I just get a little sensitive when the conversation starts to go that way... No harm done...

 

[kcowan]

I wonder if Porsche people consider themselves superior in their choice even if it is a Cayenne?

I got a lot of flack for being a BMW guy. What is it with people? Will my personality change if I buy a Lexus or Miata?

(Currently a Ford SUV and Nissan "guy"!)

 

[Car-Guy]

Hmm ... I don't really have a favorite.

I do, but it changes when I get something new.

Yes, they are all just cars. All have strengths and weaknesses that can be discussed (I thought) from an engineering point of view. Sorry if that got you spun up.

If folks here think car nuts can get emotional/opinionated about their cars, they should try to debate the merits of the best guns with a firearms enthusiast. No contest.

 

[bradaz2488]

I wonder if Porsche people consider themselves superior in their choice even if it is a Cayenne?

I got a lot of flack for being a BMW guy. What is it with people? Will my personality change if I buy a Lexus or Miata?

(Currently a Ford SUV and Nissan "guy"!)

From my experience just in the Porsche community there are 4 types of people:
1) 911 air-cool engine owners that hate all Porsche cars after the 993
2) 911 owners that hate all cars that are not 911's
3) People that only buy Porsche cars and SUV.
4) Open-minded people that like all things cars related.

Good thing most people fall into group 4. My guess all car maker enthusiasts have similar type of groups..

 

[Texas Proud]

I wonder if Porsche people consider themselves superior in their choice even if it is a Cayenne?

I got a lot of flack for being a BMW guy. What is it with people? Will my personality change if I buy a Lexus or Miata?

(Currently a Ford SUV and Nissan "guy"!)

Yes.... yes it will....

 

[Car-Guy]

I wonder if Porsche people consider themselves superior in their choice even if it is a Cayenne?

Yes, if it is 570hp Turbo S model.

 

[OldShooter]

One of my minor sources of amusement is all these high-end grocery-getters; Porsche, Beemer, Benz, Cadillac, etc. I have some kind of genetic defect that keeps me from understanding why I would want something like that.

Speaking of cars for impressing people, the Alfa 4C is worth a look. Very lightweight carbon fiber bodywork and tub, mid-engine turbo four, and a trunk that will take a shoe box but probably not a box big enough for hunting boots. IIRC only about $65K. About the most radical street car I have seen per dollar. I looked one over pretty good at a dealer but did not drive it.

 

[Fedup]

One of my minor sources of amusement is all these high-end grocery-getters; Porsche, Beemer, Benz, Cadillac, etc. I have some kind of genetic defect that keeps me from understanding why I would want something like that.

Speaking of cars for impressing people, the Alfa 4C is worth a look. Very lightweight carbon fiber bodywork and tub, mid-engine turbo four, and a trunk that will take a shoe box but probably not a box big enough for hunting boots. IIRC only about $65K. About the most radical street car I have seen per dollar. I looked one over pretty good at a dealer but did not drive it.

Me too. Not only that I opened my big mouth when my SUV was within a Porsche car, not sure which type, maybe it was a Cayenne and said it was ugly. The poor guy heard me. Good thing we are not allowed to carry guns here otherwise I would be in big trouble.

 

[Cap_Scarlet]

FWIW - I think the most important thing is whether a car delivers fun at whatever level that might be (read: does not need to have anything to do with a cars technical capabilities)

Having lived in Germany for many years there is something quite intoxicating about having an autobahn blaster (my favorite car at the time was a twin-turbo Audi RS4 - 275kmh in a station wagon).

However, it might be that the most fun I had was in a Suzuki Swift 4x4 that we bought for our daughter. What a hoot to drive in the winter. With 96 hp lugging around a permanent four wheel drive system it was one of those cars where maintaining momentum was the absolute only focus.

So...I agree with the sentiment...as a car-guy..there are no right or wrong choices when it comes to cars but its fun to have the debate.

 

[steadystate]

My older air cooled Porsche 911 has brought more fun and enjoyment to my life over the past 5 years than any other inanimate object I have owned. Actually to me it seems almost alive. Despite the goofy rear engine design, the car drives beautifully and is a sensory and tactile delight. And that flat six symphony while running it to redline is something everyone should experience.

The 911 truly is the greatest sports car of all time. I guess I am a bit biased by my experience, however!

By the way, they depreciate ... NOT!! The air cooled models are still going up in value. And the millenials love them. Here's a photo of the "Little Car"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffbottman/27604872076/sizes/l

 

[bradaz2488]

FWIW - I think the most important thing is whether a car delivers fun at whatever level that might be (read: does not need to have anything to do with a cars technical capabilities)

Having lived in Germany for many years there is something quite intoxicating about having an autobahn blaster (my favorite car at the time was a twin-turbo Audi RS4 - 275kmh in a station wagon).

However, it might be that the most fun I had was in a Suzuki Swift 4x4 that we bought for our daughter. What a hoot to drive in the winter. With 96 hp lugging around a permanent four wheel drive system it was one of those cars where maintaining momentum was the absolute only focus.

So...I agree with the sentiment...as a car-guy..there are no right or wrong choices when it comes to cars but its fun to have the debate.

+1.. Well said... From what I remember, I have the same enjoyable driving experience with my 2009 Boxster S that I had with my 1978 Fiat Spyder even though the Boxster technical specs are superior. My guess it mainly due to the open top drive experience.

 

[Texas Proud]

FWIW - I think the most important thing is whether a car delivers fun at whatever level that might be (read: does not need to have anything to do with a cars technical capabilities)

Having lived in Germany for many years there is something quite intoxicating about having an autobahn blaster (my favorite car at the time was a twin-turbo Audi RS4 - 275kmh in a station wagon).

However, it might be that the most fun I had was in a Suzuki Swift 4x4 that we bought for our daughter. What a hoot to drive in the winter. With 96 hp lugging around a permanent four wheel drive system it was one of those cars where maintaining momentum was the absolute only focus.

So...I agree with the sentiment...as a car-guy..there are no right or wrong choices when it comes to cars but its fun to have the debate.

LOL... you had POWER!!!

I had a '80 Mazda GLC sport with (IIRC) 65 or so HP... at least I had a manual and could keep the RPMS up in the 4K range when I needed 'power'.... it had a blazing 13.5 seconds to 60 and a 19.0 qtr mile.... really put you back into your seat.....

But, to tell you the truth I did like the car.... you were revving the engine all the time... I would hit 6K RPMS when accelerating or I would be very slow... PLUS it had a great emergency brake.... I could pull up on it and start skidding down the road .... I would yell out 'EMERGENCY BRAKE' and pull on it and start skidding and scare the heck out of my passsengers ....

 

[bradaz2488]

My older air cooled Porsche 911 has brought more fun and enjoyment to my life over the past 5 years than any other inanimate object I have owned. Actually to me it seems almost alive. Despite the goofy rear engine design, the car drives beautifully and is a sensory and tactile delight. And that flat six symphony while running it to redline is something everyone should experience.

The 911 truly is the greatest sports car of all time. I guess I am a bit biased by my experience, however!

By the way, they depreciate ... NOT!! The air cooled models are still going up in value. And the millenials love them. Here's a photo of the "Little Car"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffbottman/27604872076/sizes/l

Nice car.. Always likes the older Targa's. The newer Targa designs got too complicated. They should have stuck with the manual removable tops. Do you do your own maintenance?

 

[steadystate]

Nice car.. Always likes the older Targa's. The newer Targa designs got too complicated. They should have stuck with the manual removable tops. Do you do your own maintenance?

I do the basic stuff, oil / trans fluid / filters, etc. My mechanic is one of the best air cooled men on the planet ... John Walker. Something of a legend and honest to the core. My favorite person to write big checks to!

 

[Txtriathelete]

Ya, Mercedes CLK cabrio. Then we moved to snow country from Texas and it made me sad to see it sitting so much so I sold it. Now looking at AWD luxury sedans, maybe another Benz. Love the look of Audi's but intimidated by sketchy reliability. If I ever go back to a fair weather car it will be a Goldwing...

 

[OldShooter]

While if there is a race to lowest horsepower I'll enter my old, long-departed, Morris Minor woodie wagon. 948cc/37hp per spec but given the blue cloud that followed me everywhere I doubt that I was benefiting from all 37 ponies.

My daydream back then was to get a damaged Lotus Plus 2, shorten the backbone chassis by 8" to match the wheelbase, and put the woodie bodywork on it. A Cosworth BDA twin cam at a couple hundred horsepower topped off the daydream. It would have been a killer autocross car!

 

[aja8888]

While if there is a race to lowest horsepower I'll enter my old, long-departed, Morris Minor woodie wagon. 948cc/37hp per spec but given the blue cloud that followed me everywhere I doubt that I was benefiting from all 37 ponies.

My daydream back then was to get a damaged Lotus Plus 2, shorten the backbone chassis by 8" to match the wheelbase, and put the woodie bodywork on it. A Cosworth BDA twin cam at a couple hundred horsepower topped off the daydream. It would have been a killer autocross car!

See my avatar...I had a few of these with 36 HP and maybe even one with 24 when I was a kid. But the one in the garage I am currently restoring is a 1600 cc with 50 HP.

The Subie WRX you just bought is, in my opinion, the best daily driver with a lot of fun going for it for the dollars expended. Where I live, a Vette or a Porsche is not much use as traffic is everywhere.

 

[eytonxav]

Someone knocking Porsches, claiming marketing hype, where have you been?Porsche On GTD Pole For Saturday IMSA Race At Circuit of The Americas, GTLM Class Battle Tight - The Drive

Here is a pic of my track prepped Porsche, probably the most enjoyable track car I have ever owned:

 

[Breedlove]

Was at a car show in Houston last night , watched a lady and her husband buying a 1963 Corvette Stingray 85,000 .00

His wife was joking with me that I should buy her 1957 Chevrolet Convertible. 160,000.00 ( dream On )

Still holding out for some type of roadster . Brother rebuilds old Jags for people in Ohio , he has a 1964 XKE ...always working on it .
We never buy new so .

Miata a really fine little car huge bang for the dollar
Nissan 350 , 360 Japanese Quality
Corvette 1980's real cheap and easy to work on
MG or Triumph A true sports car but they always break down.

Someone mentioned Craig Breedlove , no kin ..being from NE Ohio we used to watch Art Arfons with Jet Engines fastened to big trees to test them . I think he called his car the ( Green Monster )

 

[Koolau]

See my avatar...I had a few of these with 36 HP and maybe even one with 24 when I was a kid. But the one in the garage I am currently restoring is a 1600 cc with 50 HP.

The Subie WRX you just bought is, in my opinion, the best daily driver with a lot of fun going for it for the dollars expended. Where I live, a Vette or a Porsche is not much use as traffic is everywhere.

Got to drive a formula V once (40HP??). Lots of fun - kinda scary too, especially in the alley. YMMV

 

[dm]

I sold my 72 and 73 911's to justify buying my plane. But I kept the wife's Boxster. It was her daily driver for years , but decided it was time for a 4'door. The Boxster has been a good car and I drive it daily. It's my golf coarse and airport car.

 

[OldShooter]

Got to drive a formula V once (40HP??). Lots of fun - kinda scary too, especially in the alley. YMMV

They'll do about 115mph on the race track.