Hurricane Harvey

[tps7742]

"

I did not follow the news during Rita, but just now looked at some videos of the evacuation on youtube.

It seems to me one would be better off taking some country roads if available, rather than the congested freeways. Once on the freeways, if you are stuck, there's nowhere to go. The reporters were talking about people taking 15 hours to go 13 miles."


During one of my earlier posts I gave an explanation of where it took me 32 hours to go 188 miles to my weekend home during Rita in 2005. My family left two days early in 2005 and it took them 6 hrs to a normally 2.5 hour trip. The problem with leaving late or when ever what happened to me was that law enforcement had blocked off the passable back roads so they could funnel traffic their own routes. Probably doubled my trip. My stupidity was my loyalty to my employer, I stayed at work and left later than planned. So evacuation of Houston is all in the timing but shutting down a major city days ahead of time for a storm that may or may not make landfall due to the unknown is not realistic IMO.

 

[MichaelB]

I still hear talking heads saying, "Houston should have been evacuated." Here is a blog post that does a good job of explaining why that would have been a very bad idea:

Evacuate more than 6 million people? Right. If talking heads were limited to only topics where they have some knowledge, they'd have nothing to talk about.

Remembering the Katrina disaster, at this point we were watching and reading about nursing homes abondaned with patients still inside, and people stranded everywhere. From a distance, it looks to me like Houston and Texas city and state officials, first responders and emergency crews are doing a better job at the impossible, which is avoiding tragic loss of life while people are rescued and given temporary shelter.

Speaking of New Orleans, how's the outlook and threat of flood?

 

[Big_Hitter]

at least the IRS has given some tax relief

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tax-relief-for-victims-of-hurricane-harvey-in-texas

"Individuals who reside or have a business in Aransas, Bee, Brazoria, Calhoun, Chambers, Fort Bend, Galveston, Goliad, Harris, Jackson, Kleberg, Liberty, Matagorda, Nueces, Refugio, San Patricio, Victoria, and Wharton Counties may qualify for tax relief."

 

[Rustic23]

EVACUATE!

OK, right up front, I am no better than the talking heads, other than I have been through several Hurricanes in this area (Houston, a native). and Florida.

Harvey, a storm that was going into Corpus Christie, 220 miles and about a 3.5 hr drive from Houston. Then it was going to meander for several days and slowly make it way up to Houston 4 to 5 days later at best a weak tropical storm.

So the storm is going to effect the population from Corpus to the Louisianan border and possibly further. A population greater than 7,000,000 people. And, time period of about a week.

The advice for hurricanes is "flee the storm surge, shelter the wind". If you look at Bolivar, Ike, and Rockport, Harvey, this seems like good advice. Had these areas not been evacuated, the death toll could have been in the tens of thousands.

The risk with all out evacuation is it jams the roads and people that need to flee the surge can't unless they leave a week in advance, and that just isn't going to happen. The hard fact is you are not going to get people to evacuate for a storm 200 miles away, from an area that has never flooded in the last 100 years! Houston tried (ike), and a hundred people died in the effort.

Flooding sucks! and the aftermath is worse than the flood, but generally there is not large scale loss of life. (not talking surge flood) So, I conclude the current advice stands, flee the surge, shield the wind. and Houston did it right!

 

[Texas Proud]

My sister is up in Wisconsin looking for a summer place...

She went to a meeting and someone up there was saying 'why did they not evacuate?'....


Well, the population of the whole state is 5.4 million over 145K sq. km....

The greater Houston area has a population over 6.5 million over 26K sq. km... with most people living in just over 4K sq. km.....

Now, try and get all those people out using 2 or 3 main roads...

There are only 15 states with a higher population than the Houston area... my county commissioner said that he represents more people than the population of 10 states...

 

[W2R]

Remembering the Katrina disaster, [...] From a distance, it looks to me like Houston and Texas city and state officials, first responders and emergency crews are doing a better job at the impossible, which is avoiding tragic loss of life while people are rescued and given temporary shelter.

I think it is a little disingenuous to compare any hurricane disaster with the levee failure disaster (following a very mild Cat 2 hurricane) that we experienced. You may recall the reporter who said jubilantly, live on network TV, that we had dodged the bullet. At that moment, he was right. He said that after Katrina had hit New Orleans, shortly before the levees broke under the pressure of storm surge, flooding the city with water from Lake Ponchartrain. We were barely affected by hurricane winds and rain, which really weren't a problem for us, but when all was said and done the loss of life here was staggering and the city was under water for weeks.

You may recall that Katrina was the second hurricane to hit New Orleans in the summer of 2005; we stayed for Hurricane Cindy, a Cat 1 at the end of June that year.

Speaking of New Orleans, how's the outlook and threat of flood?

The outlook is the same as I posted (copied below) in this thread, yesterday. Harvey turned more northward than previously predicted so the track has been moving away from us. Harvey has been pounding the Louisiana Texas border pretty hard as it heads northward, providing Houston with some respite from its torrential rains. I attached a current graphic from the NHC. As for us, we have had just an inch of rain so far this morning, which along with the previous two days makes about 7 inches. The winds are expected to arrive later on today.

Update to the update: The outlook is greatly improved here in New Orleans. It has only rained lightly, and sometimes not at all, this afternoon. The rain is moderate right now and the total rainfall so far today is about 3". There is a wind advisory for winds gusting up to 35 mph. That bright red line of storms on the radar never arrived here and seems to be gone. We even went out to lunch, and the roads were dryer than they were yesterday. Schools will resume tomorrow, all public buildings will re-open, and the predicted rainfall has gone down to 6-8 inches here between now and Friday.

 

[LOL!]

Is it fair to say at this time that most Houstonians had no water in their dwellings and no wind damage? It is sure hard to tell from media reports.

People can leave now or in a couple of days. We lost power during Ike and Rita, so a day later we went up to the Dallas area without any problems in the normal 4 hours amount of time because few people were driving then and all gas stations had plenty of fuel.

Some folks went to Disney World since schools were closed. This speaks to the demographics that one sees on TV rescues. Sad, but a fact of life.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Is it fair to say at this time that most Houstonians had no water in their dwellings and no wind damage? It is sure hard to tell from media reports.

People can leave now or in a couple of days. When we lost power during Ike and Rita, we went up to the Dallas area without any problems in the 4 hoursl amount of time because few people were driving then and all gas stations had plenty of fuel.

I think that is a fair statement judging from my (over 100) social media and w*rk contacts that still live in htown

We lost power for a week during Rita and for 3 weeks during Ike. Harvey didn't knock down that many trees but he sure did dump a lot of water, everywhere.

 

[NW-Bound]

Speaking of power loss, for the last 40 years, subdivisions where I am have been built with underground power cables and ground mounted transformers. I would think the same is done everywhere.

So, in a flood, I would think there's a big problem with distribution transformers getting flooded. And the old way of having electrical lines on poles in the back alley has the usual problem with the wind taking the poles down.

How does one mitigate these problems? Much of the outcome depends on luck, it appears.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Speaking of power loss, for the last 40 years, subdivisions where I am have been built with underground power cables and ground mounted transformers. I would think the same is done everywhere.

.

pretty much all power cables in htown are above ground

that's why we had major power losses during Rita and Ike and few in Harvey

 

[Rustic23]

Overhead lines susceptible to wind

Underground lines susceptible to flood

Not sure which is really better. Around here they keep the lines cleared of trees. I suspect that neighborhoods with overhead lines are fairing better.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-w...erial-photos-show-12158882.php#photo-14017928

This is a link to the Houston Chronicle, with a good group of pictures. Not everyone is flooded, but there is a lot of water there!

 

[MichaelB]

I think it is a little disingenuous to compare any hurricane disaster with the levee failure disaster (following a very mild Cat 2 hurricane) that we experienced. You may recall the reporter who said jubilantly, live on network TV, that we had dodged the bullet. At that moment, he was right. He said that after Katrina had hit New Orleans, shortly before the levees broke under the pressure of storm surge, flooding the city with water from Lake Ponchartrain. We were barely affected by hurricane winds and rain, which really weren't a problem for us, but when all was said and done the loss of life here was staggering and the city was under water for weeks.

You may recall that Katrina was the second hurricane to hit New Orleans in the summer of 2005; we stayed for Hurricane Cindy, a Cat 1 at the end of June that year.

Not being disingenuous - at least not intentionally. I'm also not being critical of NO. If anything, I'm critical of reports, with perfect 20/20 hindsight, that preach what should have been done. I think first responders and emergency crews have an impossible task and they cannot satisfy all the need. Disaster planning is impossible to do well - it always sins, either from excess or inadequacy.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Overhead lines susceptible to wind

Underground lines susceptible to flood

Not sure which is really better. Around here they keep the lines cleared of trees. I suspect that neighborhoods with overhead lines are fairing better.

that doesn't help when a tree falls on the lines tho - that's what happened to us in Rita

during Ike power was out all over town

and the power company has a service model that minimizes complaints so we were just about the last neighborhood without power both times

i miss my family and friends and really feel for them right now but I don't miss dealing with storms one bit - it will take years for htown to recover from this

 

[W2R]

Not being disingenuous - at least not intentionally. I'm also not being critical of NO. If anything, I'm critical of reports, with perfect 20/20 hindsight, that preach what should have been done. I think first responders and emergency crews have an impossible task and they cannot satisfy all the need. Disaster planning is impossible to do well - it always sins, either from excess or inadequacy.

That's a good point. Sometimes the public is awfully quick to criticize, but I think that first responders, emergency crews, and others helping with a disaster do the best they possibly can. It's a very tough job.

Perhaps some of us (cough cough... me especially) are a little overly sensitive about Katrina. Seeing the disaster, the heartbreak, the destruction, the misery, up close and in my face all day every day for so very long, day in and day out, is very tough to endure without some lasting emotional impact.

 

[W2R]

Update to the update to the update: We just got a statement about what to expect here in SE Louisiana. Among other things, it said

At 1000 am CDT, Tropical Storm Harvey is moving toward the north-
northeast near 8 mph and is expected to continue on this general
heading through tomorrow. The main impact across southeast Louisiana
and south Mississippi will be heavy rain and the potential for flash
flooding.

It also mentioned wind, tornados, and so on. Still, I can't help but feel good about this much improved situation here.

 

[Texas Proud]

I think that is a fair statement judging from my (over 100) social media and w*rk contacts that still live in htown

We lost power for a week during Rita and for 3 weeks during Ike. Harvey didn't knock down that many trees but he sure did dump a lot of water, everywhere.

Talking about downed trees... .was just outside and noticed that our tall cypress tree was leaning forward WAY too much... got a stake, push the tree back as much as I could and drove the stake in to keep it upright... the ground is so saturated that it looked like it would fall over... hope I did enough...

 

[Texas Proud]

pretty much all power cables in htown are above ground

that's why we had major power losses during Rita and Ike and few in Harvey

Not really... almost all neighborhoods up where I live have underground cables... they have above ground feeding into some location, but the houses are underground...

My sister lost power for about 12 hours when a tree fell on the feeder line to her neighborhood....

 

[Big_Hitter]

Not really... almost all neighborhoods up where I live have underground cables... they have above ground feeding into some location, but the houses are underground...

My sister lost power for about 12 hours when a tree fell on the feeder line to her neighborhood....

houston or suburb? i'm talking inside bw8 built in the 40s/50s/60s/70s hoods

woodlands, conroe, tomball etc may have underground lines - i usually didn't get out that far lol

 

[Texas Proud]

houston or suburb? i'm talking inside bw8 built in the 40s/50s/60s/70s hoods

woodlands, conroe, tomball etc may have underground lines - i usually didn't get out that far lol

Then yes, we are suburbs... built in 84...

The house I grew up was built in 58 and it has overhead....

 

[Big_Hitter]

grew up in alief (77072) and we had overhead

I think that house was built in 69

houston has grown so much since the early 70s, which may be one reason why the flooding is so bad

 

[NW-Bound]

Some people say that all the asphalt and concrete surfaces keep the ground from absorbing rainwater, and there's certainly that effect.

But what ground can absorb 50" of rain in such a short time? You would need pure sand!

I think it's more about the natural bayou getting constricted, plus when there were no houses, people did not care if uninhabited land was flooded.

 

[akck]

Good for y'all. Did power stay on? Water from the tap OK? We didn't even fill up 32-gal rubbermaid brute containers w/lids in our showers like we usually do. These contain our hurricane supplies when not filled with water. The lids let us continue to shower and keep the water potable.

I was in NY for Sandy and airports remained closed for a few days afterwards partly because airport workers could not get to them. I got a 9 hour ride to Pittsburgh (it snowed on the way) and flew home from there. The drive included a stop to identify a dead body in a town with no power. Although gas lines were long in NY/NJ, we didn't need gas until well into PA.

In Houston, the Ike evacuation went much better than the Rita one, so Houston has a plan that can work.

Water and power stayed on the entire time. Our only problem was with a new household, we weren't fully stocked on condiment-like things, things you'd normally run out to get when needed. We had enough meals planned for 4-5 days, so we just made it through, the flooding subsiding in the subdivision. We really couldn't stock up as many shelves were picked over.

As for leaving, were scheduled for Sunday. We also caught a break on the rental car as we won't get charged for the days they are closed.

 

[meierlde]

houston or suburb? i'm talking inside bw8 built in the 40s/50s/60s/70s hoods

woodlands, conroe, tomball etc may have underground lines - i usually didn't get out that far lol

It does depend on the time the subdivision was built, as it is easier to install the utilities underground if you do it all at one time. I lived in a house built in 1978 in SW Houston and it had underground electric and telephone. (as indeed was the cable). Older neighborhoods tend to have above ground. Now the second level distribution around the edges of the subdivision was above ground, but that makes the tree trimming needed much easier since they can get the larger equipment in.

 

[meierlde]

Re the flooding: Interestingly the areas behind levees that flood put the levees up because the land routinely flooded from the Brazos River from Richmond thru SugarLand, it was all farm land until maybe 25 years ago. (just like the land above the 2 dams it was farm land when I moved to Houston in 1976, now it is all subdivisions) Of course if you had made the land off limits to development Houston house prices would be like LA or the Bay area.

 

[Rustic23]

Removing trees, grass, etc. does contribute to flood problems. However, the County/City are well aware of it. For at least the last 30 years, maybe more developers had to designate area as 'retention ponds'. That is why there are so many developments with titles like The Lakes of XXXXXX. In reality they are The Retention Ponds of XXXX. It is also why many apartment parking lots flood. I have no personal knowledge of this, but there has always been rumors that the parking lots or qualified retention ponds.

Retention pond: an area that hold water and releases it at a given rate to the drainage system (my definition not official)