FIRE and Divorce

[Lawrencewendall]

As to me, DW would consider kicking me to the curb for a lot of reasons but FIRE isn't one of them...

Quote of the day!

DW and I have been together 34 years. Who knows what the future holds?

Know a guy who divorced but the Ex still lives with him for financial reasons. Kinda weird.

 

[MrsHaloFIRE]

Weve been FIREd approx. 1 year and during that time weve had no permanent place of residence as we have traveled fulltime. I think I should point out that I may be one of the youngest folks on here at age 35. HaloFIRE is midfifties. Weve been married around 12 years. It has been super nice to have tons of time to have long conversations. Long road trips where I read headlines or news blurbs or research ideas and we banter back and forth. Tons of time to take naps together, read books together. Occasionally I do feel like my independence has been lacking but I attribute that to us only having 1 car at this point bc we cant really justify 2 when we are roadtripping and cruising. Its not that I cant take the car anywhere I want to and go alone, its just less likely to happen bc he 1)doesn't have anything competing for his time and likes to drive me and maybe we can get lunch while we are out etc etc or 2) no errands are pressing enough that I feel like I should go out or want to go out so I don't. Some of this can be attributed to going from working fulltime to not working at all, I had to get up and out regardless of desire or weather be it to get to work, or get mandatory errands run during the only available timeslot regardless of whether I wanted to go or not. I agree with the statement someone made about retirement mellowing us. I think ours tempers are more calm, we are more rested, theres less panic about taking the minimum amount of leave days or not being able to fall asleep and dreading work the next day on no sleep.

I used to be terrified of getting sick bc it either ruined my tiny vacation, made me miserable at work, or ate up all my leave hours. I started just taking unpaid time off when I needed to go home and recharge (on days the calendar of appts supported this). I think we are closer than we were before FIRE. But I do miss us coming home with independently interesting stories. Hearing the crazy things that happened to him, and then having something to top that from my own day. Now 90pct of the time we laugh about it when it happens bc we are both standing there to see it. Nothing wrong with that, just different.

 

[Huston55]

We joke that we’ve known each other for 39 years, been married for 32, and lived together for 30. (Because Navy.)

This resonated & made me go back and count it up.

DW & I have been married 38 yrs.

During the first 25 yrs (300 mos), we lived in the same place 164 mos (Because: Air Force, Grad School, Civilian Employer). I used to joke that our time apart was the secret to a successful marriage. We’ve spent almost 100% of the subsequent 13 yrs living in the same place, including the most recent 4 yrs of FIRE.

In my experience, there’s a big difference and it takes quite a bit of adjusting, with FIRE requiring even more adjustment. In all honesty, we’re still working on finding the perfect equilibrium.

 

[Scuba]

I just finished posting over there and then found my name over here linked to a similar thread-- yikes.

I’d like to think that my spouse and I have figured out our lifetime relationship. We come from similar backgrounds, we’ve both had a plebe year, and our careers required us to figure out how to work with difficult people. We also pulled together in harness on the parenting challenge, which requires more hours of thoughtful discussion while exhausted.

Togetherness has always been about communicating and agreeing on our roles. Everything is perpetually subject to re-negotiation. There are always things which one spouse no longer wants to be responsible for, or at least doesn’t want to do anymore. There might be more things which one spouse wants to explore, and the other is less interested.

We’ve always enjoyed being at home, spending our introvert time “alone together” in opposite ends of the rooms. We get together for chores, projects, & meals. We have our own friends & social lives as well as our shared ones.

I think our biggest debate since FI has been landlording. We’ve done it since 1994, I don’t want to do it anymore, and she has very personal reasons for doing something which she doesn’t mind too much.

Last year’s 68-day rehab required a tremendous amount of advance planning, a GC with several subcontractors, and quite a bit of our own sweat equity. When we weren’t on site all day (or even longer) then we were planning the next day or scrambling to salvage the current one. I realized that the thrill of replacing water heaters and toilets has lost its novelty for the rest of my life. The rehab was also surprisingly extraordinarily painful-- I personally went through over a hundred 800mg doses of ibuprofen. You realize that you’re in your 50s, not your 20s, and you might not be able to recover from the pace anymore. Chronic fatigue accumulates and you find yourself [-]arguing[/-] having an intense spouse discussion about topics which would normally not even be noticed. At least we were debating project management, not expenses. At least we settled our differences and moved forward.

We’ve held on to our rental property for the bird-in-the-hand syndrome. Maybe our daughter and son-in-law will want to live in it someday, or maybe we’d move back in to it when we can no longer keep up our current home. Our rental property is very age-in-place friendly in a very walkable neighborhood, while our current home would require a yard service. Maybe it’d even need a stair-chair and perhaps a housecleaner.

Yet during our 68 days I realized that I like our current home a lot better and I’d prefer to die here. (At one point my spouse assured me that was quite likely.) As good as our rental property is, the neighborhood is noisy. The yard is small and the view is negligible. Meanwhile our current home’s drawbacks are logistics challenges which can easily be handled with... money.

Financial independence means that you can do more of what you love and less of what you don’t. Once we had the property back on the rental market, I shared with my spouse that I didn’t want to landlord any more. (Heck, I barely want to adult any more.) I wanted to sell the place, pay the taxes, dump the rest into equities, and keep traveling the world.

She pointed out that our rental property was her backup plan. If I died in our home then she wouldn’t want to live in it anymore, but she could handle the memories we’d forged in our rental property. (I’d never thought of that.) I pointed out that she’d just sentenced me to a lifetime of landlording with no parole.

Our compromise is that she now handles all the landlording. (I’m still on-call labor.) She’s had quite the hassle getting the tenants settled in, and I’m not sure that everything is going as well as it could, but after 13 months it seems to be in autopilot. Maybe after a few more 1 AM texts or if the tenants thoughtlessly trash the place, then she’ll feel the same way about landlording as I do. Maybe she’ll decide to hire it all out to a property manager or even sell it. Either way I have most of what I want, and she has most of what she wants. We’re both happier for having worked it out together. We both feel more secure together.

Our second-biggest debate has been flying in first class on commercial airlines. She’s finally begun to appreciate the travel experience of someone who’s larger, who has wider shoulders than economy-class seatbacks, and who gets body-searched Every. Single. Time. even with the Pre-check scanners. (TSA thinks she’s charming. Then she curls up in a window seat with sleep mask & earplugs, and doesn’t wake up until the landing gear drops.) I’ll put up with a few hours in economy seats during daylight, but on an eight-hour redeye to the Mainland I want a first-class experience.

She doesn’t see the value in flying first class, although she now appreciates my perspective. We’ve done the math to show that travel hacking (and flying military Space A) more than makes up for the cost of a first-class ticket, and we’re not spending it fast enough anyway.

We joke that we’ve known each other for 39 years, been married for 32, and lived together for 30. (Because Navy.) A good friend who knows us well once said that we tend to discuss every disagreement to completion and compromise. We rarely seem to yell “Fine!” or stomp off to neutral corners. Instead we dig into the analysis (or manage to table it until we’re rested) and we eventually work through it.

So far so good.

Nice post. Enjoyed reading your story. Seems that you and DW have it figured out!

 

[daylatedollarshort]

The sad, but true, factor is that one day, due to illness and death, we will not be able to spend time with each other at all... and at that time one may wish again for those "getting on each others nerves being around each other" days... so until that occurs, we are going to make the most of this blessed time together.

Joining our local senior clubs and talking to the members who have lost a spouse has given me the same perspective.

 

[Hermit]

Joining our local senior clubs and talking to the members who have lost a spouse has given me the same perspective.

This is certainly true in my case...

 

[W2R]

I went through the financial trainwreck known as divorce, in 1998. I didn't start planning my retirement until after that.

Retirement has been wonderful for me and I think it might be easier for a divorced person to adjust, than it is for a married person. Being divorced just enhances the feelings of freedom that one attains upon retiring.

Because I am divorced, I haven't experienced any of the issues that some married retired women have told me about (such as their husbands following them around all day while they do housework, over-spending due to boredom, and so on).

It helps to at least have a companion or SO in retirement, or else I suppose that one could get lonely. We only get together when both of us feel like it.

 

[street]

With 2 1/2 years in the two of us do our own thing. We got 35 years together and we are totally opposite in our interests. We have always done and did what we like to do and always let each other enjoy our freedom. We go and do things together but we also respect and let each do what they want to. It really has been a great 35 years and not sure I could ever live without her, even thou we do very little together. It is a prefect setup for us.

 

[48Fire]

I think anyone preparing for FIRE or even in the early FIRE stages should be concerned about their relationship with their significant other. In our case, the dynamics completely blind-sided us. And we have a happy marriage that some of our peers envy. So if it can happen to us, I think anyone is vulnerable.

I did a lot of preparing for FIRE. Mostly financial, but I also spent time considering the emotional and mental failure points, but typically from an individual perspective. I assumed, wrongly, that the stress points of our relationship would get better due to the elimination of work stress, etc. I assumed that we would mellow with age and the FIRE lifestyle.

What I didn’t consider was that the stress points of our relationship were mostly social in nature. And the dynamics associated with those increased. And more importantly, the number of opportunities for these conflicts dramatically increased. It was really just a numbers game of probabilities that conflicts were going to increase as well. The affects were repeatable and cumulative. All of this while the happy couple postings on Facebook and in group settings continued. People openly envied our FIRE lifestyle.

At first, I thought it was just the adjustments of FIRE that we were going through. Much like getting married, having a child, losing a parent, or other challenges in life. However, the affects were cumulative, and after five years, we finally were approaching rock bottom. We both knew it. The only things that saved our marriage was a deep love for each other, and there was no other person of the opposite sex that would have made the grass greener. We talked openly about where do we go from here, cautiously avoiding the “D” word. But we knew something had to change. If either one of us was ready to give up, it would have been over. There were no dependent kids, no financial worries, and a lifetime still in front of both of us. We just didn’t know if we would be together.

Fortunately things have improved in the last several months, but there is still a lot of work to be done. Either one of us could slip back, and we are both aware of that. When we approach typical situations that may cause conflicts, we often discuss items in advance.

In summary, anticipate conflicts increasing in FIRE, and plan just like you do financially. If they don’t, consider yourself lucky

 

[Rianne]

I think anyone preparing for FIRE or even in the early FIRE stages should be concerned about their relationship with their significant other. In our case, the dynamics completely blind-sided us. And we have a happy marriage that some of our peers envy. So if it can happen to us, I think anyone is vulnerable.

I did a lot of preparing for FIRE. Mostly financial, but I also spent time considering the emotional and mental failure points, but typically from an individual perspective. I assumed, wrongly, that the stress points of our relationship would get better due to the elimination of work stress, etc. I assumed that we would mellow with age and the FIRE lifestyle.

What I didn’t consider was that the stress points of our relationship were mostly social in nature. And the dynamics associated with those increased. And more importantly, the number of opportunities for these conflicts dramatically increased. It was really just a numbers game of probabilities that conflicts were going to increase as well. The affects were repeatable and cumulative. All of this while the happy couple postings on Facebook and in group settings continued. People openly envied our FIRE lifestyle.

At first, I thought it was just the adjustments of FIRE that we were going through. Much like getting married, having a child, losing a parent, or other challenges in life. However, the affects were cumulative, and after five years, we finally were approaching rock bottom. We both knew it. The only things that saved our marriage was a deep love for each other, and there was no other person of the opposite sex that would have made the grass greener. We talked openly about where do we go from here, cautiously avoiding the “D” word. But we knew something had to change. If either one of us was ready to give up, it would have been over. There were no dependent kids, no financial worries, and a lifetime still in front of both of us. We just didn’t know if we would be together.

Fortunately things have improved in the last several months, but there is still a lot of work to be done. Either one of us could slip back, and we are both aware of that. When we approach typical situations that may cause conflicts, we often discuss items in advance.

In summary, anticipate conflicts increasing in FIRE, and plan just like you do financially. If they don’t, consider yourself lucky

Yes, DH/me had to get to know each other again. Working, handling family crisis, figuring out how to save over the years etc. are problem solving events over the years, they are active. When we FIRE, it was like "are you still the same person I married 34 years ago?" All of a sudden, we had time together. Our habits became obvious. We enjoy entirely different things, we do so much apart from each other now. BUT we also have the together times we enjoy. I have come to respect and love my guy. It was sketchy for a time.

 

[kimcdougc]

DH retired in Feb. of 2015. I retired in 2010. Had my schedule all figured out for 5 years without him being around in the daytime. Now we have managed to make retirement work for both of us.

I married my DH after knowing him for 2 weeks and we will be married 40 years in July. We are together all the time. So much so that I go volunteer by myself at least once a week. We seem to be making it work and I have thought about how it would be without him and I get teary eyed. Guess I am still very much in love with this man (even though we have our moments). I don't think anyone would ever take care of me like he would.

When I had an aortic valve replacement in 2013, he took care of me, washing my feet, my hair etc., sleeping on a cot for two weeks beside me while I slept on the couch so I wouldn't turn over. I learned then, how big of a heart he has for me and how much he loves me. That is enough on those days we have moments to let it all go. The grass is not greener on the other side for me.

Till death do us part comes to mind.

 

[Teacher Terry]

When I was married to my ex I knew I couldn’t stand to retire with him. As soon as the youngest was 18 I divorced him. Met my current husband 20 years ago. I knew that I could retire with him and we have had no issues after 6 years. We do lots of things together and some separate.

 

[Dtail]

DH retired in Feb. of 2015. I retired in 2010. Had my schedule all figured out for 5 years without him being around in the daytime. Now we have managed to make retirement work for both of us.

I married my DH after knowing him for 2 weeks and we will be married 40 years in July. We are together all the time. So much so that I go volunteer by myself at least once a week. We seem to be making it work and I have thought about how it would be without him and I get teary eyed. Guess I am still very much in love with this man (even though we have our moments). I don't think anyone would ever take care of me like he would.

When I had an aortic valve replacement in 2013, he took care of me, washing my feet, my hair etc., sleeping on a cot for two weeks beside me while I slept on the couch so I wouldn't turn over. I learned then, how big of a heart he has for me and how much he loves me. That is enough on those days we have moments to let it all go. The grass is not greener on the other side for me.

Till death do us part comes to mind.

Loved reading this post.

 

[steelyman]

Loved reading this post.

“The Notebook” comes to mind.

 

[harllee]

DH and I are both 67, we have been married 46 years and we were lucky enough to be able to retire at age 50. So we have been retired for 17 years (hard to believe it). We found that our marriage improved after we retired. Before retirement we both had demanding high stress careers--we barely had time for each other. Since we retired we have developed many joint hobbies and interests--travel, golf, motorhome, boat, hiking, sports, dancing, our Church. I don't think retirement would be nearly so much fun without DH next to me. I count my blessings everyday for him.

 

[KCalla]

I think we are closer than we were before FIRE. But I do miss us coming home with independently interesting stories. Hearing the crazy things that happened to him, and then having something to top that from my own day. Now 90pct of the time we laugh about it when it happens bc we are both standing there to see it. Nothing wrong with that, just different.
MrsHaloFIRE is online now

MrsHaloFIRE made many observations and comments that resonate with me. I agree with her about the feeling of reduced independence. For me it was just a vague feeling, and the plus outweighed the minus. It did take some getting used to. She's so right about going places together because nothing else is pressing. It is a change to not have to do errands in small available time windows. I have become quite a homebody and have to make an intentional decision to leave the house sometimes.
I also love the reduced stress from worry about work schedule. It is such a luxury to stay home or in bed if feeling under the weather! And the dreaded "Sundaynightis" of not being able to get to sleep before starting a work week is no longer a factor. Liberty! If I don't sleep, my schedule is rarely so tight that it will be a big problem the next day.
Missing the "independently interesting stories" was a real thing for us, too. It has been helped because we now a couple of hours a day apart doing out own things. We also spend (as other posters mentioned) a lot of time apart together. Within earshot of each other, doing separate things based on individual interest. Those things give us more to talk about, too.

 

[cnocmmz]

Wanna see just how strong your marriage is? Sell the house and live in a motorhome for a few years, with 1 other vehicle. Worked great for us!

Yeah.......Not that brave!!! - lol

 

[HighOnLife]

I am in a field of self-employment that was low-earning until my ship came in and I got a big client. The moment that ship sailed was also the moment we hit our FI goal at age 32—a huge feat for us—and was also the moment my wife struck. When the smoke cleared I was left with the house and 150k or so to survive the next round of unemployment. My wife's goal was to destroy me personally and financially; she failed, but she did take away the fruit those years of hard work. Opportunities come and go, but those losses are locked in. In terms of net worth, it's more like sequence of return loss than "losing" hundreds of thousands in a market drop, knowing that someday it will "bounce back."

Four years later I'm back up to a basic savings goal. I see a light at the end of the tunnel to mature FI but I've still got a ways to go. Had we stayed together we would be retired millionaires. I'm guessing the divorce set me back a little under ten years of FI. I'm relying heavily on equity appreciation, which may or may not happen considering current market return predictions.

So in my case, FI was a direct reason for divorce. It's funny how sometimes you end up persecuted for doing good things. Of the few older women I dated post-divorce, some had launched the same campaign in their 50's, after their husbands fully retired from a lucrative career. I can imagine losing half of your entire working life at full retirement being much worse.

One benefit I hear from those who LBTM is that often the hostile partner who leaves is the same one who overspends. If that's the case, flying solo reduces waste and allows the chance to travel faster toward FI goals. That may not outweigh the losses for the party that trades their time and health for savings, however.

As for going through that again? Never! Lesson learned, tuition paid. For a high wage earner, or anyone willing to work hard to grow their potential, I have learned that marriage is a high risk proposition. More like putting 50% of your entire portfolio into a single pink sheet stock.

 

[Scuba]

I am in a field of self-employment that was low-earning until my ship came in and I got a big client. The moment that ship sailed was also the moment we hit our FI goal at age 32—a huge feat for us—and was also the moment my wife struck. When the smoke cleared I was left with the house and 150k or so to survive the next round of unemployment. My wife's goal was to destroy me personally and financially; she failed, but she did take away the fruit those years of hard work. Opportunities come and go, but those losses are locked in. In terms of net worth, it's more like sequence of return loss than "losing" hundreds of thousands in a market drop, knowing that someday it will "bounce back."

Four years later I'm back up to a basic savings goal. I see a light at the end of the tunnel to mature FI but I've still got a ways to go. Had we stayed together we would be retired millionaires. I'm guessing the divorce set me back a little under ten years of FI. I'm relying heavily on equity appreciation, which may or may not happen considering current market return predictions.

So in my case, FI was a direct reason for divorce. It's funny how sometimes you end up persecuted for doing good things. Of the few older women I dated post-divorce, some had launched the same campaign in their 50's, after their husbands fully retired from a lucrative career. I can imagine losing half of your entire working life at full retirement being much worse.

One benefit I hear from those who LBTM is that often the hostile partner who leaves is the same one who overspends. If that's the case, flying solo reduces waste and allows the chance to travel faster toward FI goals. That may not outweigh the losses for the party that trades their time and health for savings, however.

As for going through that again? Never! Lesson learned, tuition paid. For a high wage earner, or anyone willing to work hard to grow their potential, I have learned that marriage is a high risk proposition. More like putting 50% of your entire portfolio into a single pink sheet stock.

Sorry for your loss. This happened to a woman I worked with. Her ex didn’t work, even after their kids were launched. She worked hard at a demanding career. RE’d in her mid-50’s and after a year or two, her DH left her and took half of everything. She had to relocate and go back to work. Doesn’t seem fair but I guess life isn’t fair. I imagine she’ll never remarry for the same reasons.

 

[kcowan]

I know, it this is a personal failure on my part however we all have our less than attractive personal attributes. I will not even consider going to a shopping mall between November and January.

My second wife had readily accepted the role of my personal shopper since I will keep wearing the same shorts and T-shirt. Now I have a choice of 20 Ts and 10 shorts. Decisions!

But I consider aimless shopping in the same league as a root canal!

 

[aja8888]

Of the few older women I dated post-divorce, some had launched the same campaign in their 50's, after their husbands fully retired from a lucrative career. I can imagine losing half of your entire working life at full retirement being much worse.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me at age 50. It took me almost 15 years to recover financially, not including the damage done to our children during the ex's campaign of terror.

 

[tulak]

I've been hesitant to comment on this thread, since I'm not RE and depending on the quality of life I'd want, FI. But I figured I'd comment anyway and I appreciate everyone else that has commented. It's been helpful for me to reflect on my own situation.

I'm in the process of divorcing and the other side is interesting, even though I'm not quite there yet. The hit to assets is significant, but I've been luckier than others here. We've saved well over the years leaving a reasonable amount of assets to be divided. I'd hate to think if that wasn't the case. I suspect it'd be much harder. As it is, we have a good buffer, which makes it easier in separating.

If we stayed together, we could have retired comfortably in the next 5 years. Think business class vs coach. As it is, I can probably pull it off in the same amount of time, but the only reason is because I'm willing to accept less, even though I think my quality of life would be pretty much the same. I don't need a bigger, more expensive house, etc. Yeah, I'm stuck flying coach.

I suspect I'll work longer for a higher quality of life. In that regard, I'm also lucky because I don't hate my job and the income is good. However, I don't know how it'll pan out and it's good to have the option to call it quits earlier if I have to and know that I can still pay the rent.

The lesson for me: I remember threads here where others would argue that you should really divide your assets by two if you're married. Now I understand. It's easy to retire on a couple of million if there's two of you sharing expenses. It's not quite as easy, or at least the same, for one on a million.

The financial hit for me: probably about 5 years. That's not too bad. But it's also assuming a more frugal lifestyle, but that's ok with me. It could be a lot worse.

 

[Sunset]

^^^^ You are not done yet, there is time for the other side to take you to the cleaners..

 

[tulak]

^^^^ You are not done yet, there is time for the other side to take you to the cleaners..

Doubtful. But thanks for the positive thoughts!

 

[kcowan]

It took me 5 years to recover from the divorce. I felt it was worth it. Then I met a wonderful woman with some resources of her own. So we are in good shape.