Whole house generator

pjigar said:
I might get away with 7.5KW/9.5KW whole house generator in part because we have individual min-split HVACs for each room/area. They are so efficient. Hot water heaters are another story all together. I have two 30 gallon water heaters for two zones (for efficiency) of a small house. Each water heater uses 4.5KW. We may have to turn off both/one water heaters when using generator or ping-pong between heat and water!
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I installed 2 mini-splits, a 1-1/2 ton unit for the living space downstairs, and a 3/4 ton unit for the master bedroom. Together, they keep the 1800-sqft downstairs comfortable year round. Being empty nesters, we practically abandoned the 5 rooms upstairs, and no longer use the original 5-ton HVAC.

The main reason for the mini splits was so that I could have heating/cooling with my DIY solar+storage system. They make whole-house inverters that could handle the startup requirement of the conventional AC, but such monstrosities weigh several hundred pounds, and require a battery that can supply the huge surge current. Their idle power consumption also makes you cringe.

As it turned out, the mini-splits keep the temperature much more even in the space that we actually use. We are now cooler in the summer, and warmer in the winter, while using mostly just solar juice. What's not to like?

PS. Regarding the electric water heater, I run it on 120V instead of 240V. That cuts the power usage from 4.5 kW to 1 kW to ease the demand of the inverters (I have two 120V inverters, and two 240V inverters, each capable of 2.4 kW). It takes 4.5 times as long to heat up the water using 120V, but for 2 people, the 50-gal tank can have enough storage that we never run out.
 
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NW-Bound said:
As it turned out, the mini-splits keep the temperature much more even in the space that we actually use. We are now cooler in the summer, and warmer in the winter, while using mostly just solar juice. What's not to like?
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That has been our experience as well: uniform cooling. I was really worried about this since I did the whole house mini-split with 5 units in total: Three 3/4 tons for bed rooms and two 1 tons for living area. I wish I went with 1.5 tons for living areas.

NW-Bound said:
PS. Regarding the electric water heater, I run it on 120V instead of 240V. That cuts the power usage from 4.5 kW to 1 kW to ease the demand of the inverters (I have two 120V inverters, and two 240V inverters, each capable of 2.4 kW). It takes 4.5 times as long to heat up the water using 120V, but for 2 people, the 50-gal tank can have enough storage that we never run out.
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This is a great idea! Thank you. I will try to run them on 120V and see if they take it. I don't mind slow warm up during emergency.
 
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NW-Bound said:
PS. Regarding the electric water heater, I run it on 120V instead of 240V. That cuts the power usage from 4.5 kW to 1 kW to ease the demand of the inverters (I have two 120V inverters, and two 240V inverters, each capable of 2.4 kW). It takes 4.5 times as long to heat up the water using 120V, but for 2 people, the 50-gal tank can have enough storage that we never run out.
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pjigar said:
This is a great idea! Thank you. I will try to run them on 120V and see if they take it. I don't mind slow warm up during emergency.
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The water heater that I rewire to 120V is a "dumb" one, whose heating elements are simply controlled by built-in thermostats. The resistive heating elements will take any lower voltage without problems.

However, the water heater in my 2nd home has some electronics in a small control box mounted on top. I am not sure if that "smartness" would help save any energy, other than to provide a simple way for the owner to dial down the temperature to a "vacation setting". However, the electronics for the "smart" function may not like to be run on a lower voltage.
 
pjigar said:
Or just stock up on wood if you have a wood burning fire place.


Generator in my book is for convenience and comfort. There are number of crud ways to keep warm or cool for survival.
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I agree with considering other methods such as survivor skills. I am an experienced camper and I boil water using a butane stove that I also use for cooking. After one quart of water is boiling, I pour the boiling water into 1 gallon of cold water in a 2 gallon bucket. I now have enough water for a warm shower. I also have a battery operated camping pump that can spray the water for my warm shower.

People who need a giga-watt generator to power everything are likely the first to die after a nuclear war. I only need a 3500 watt generator to use for both camping and as an emergency backup. I like the idea that I can take the power with me in case of armageddon.
 
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NW-Bound said:
The water heater that I rewire to 120V is a "dumb" one, whose heating elements are simply controlled by built-in thermostats. The resistive heating elements will take any lower voltage without problems.

However, the water heater in my 2nd home has some electronics in a small control box mounted on top. I am not sure if that "smartness" would help save any energy, other than to provide a simple way for the owner to dial down the temperature to a "vacation setting". However, the electronics for the "smart" function may not like to be run on a lower voltage.
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I understand. I will have to see how "smart" is my water heater.
 
I wouldn't bother re-wiring an electric water heater...the one at our vacation cabin (plain old tank style) only takes less than an hour to heat water comfortably for a shower.

So were I running on a portable generator (with 240VAC output) I'd just switch off other loads and switch on the water heater an hour before I was ready to use it.
 
ncbill said:
I wouldn't bother re-wiring an electric water heater...the one at our vacation cabin (plain old tank style) only takes less than an hour to heat water comfortably for a shower.

So were I running on a portable generator (with 240VAC output) I'd just switch off other loads and switch on the water heater an hour before I was ready to use it.
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This is what I used to do when I had a portable generator. Before her majesty took her shower, I would wire up the generator to the water heater for about an hour. Then disconnect the generator from the water heater and hook it up to the well pump. Then she could take a hot shower.
 
Speaking of generators, those of you in Texas should be able to get a credit/grant for a generator from FEMA thanks to the "individual assistance" provision of the declaration. Here is some information on that: https://www.fema.gov/fact-sheet/generator-and-chainsaw-reimbursement-hurricane-laura-survivors

While the page is for Hurricane Laura, it will still apply...FEMA just hasn't updated the page as of yet. Key takeaways of this grant:
Applicants who purchase or rent a generator and/or chainsaw within 30 days after the incident start date of XXX, may be eligible to receive financial assistance for reimbursement if:

The applicant meets the general eligibility requirements for FEMA’s Individuals and Households Program.
The home is the applicant’s primary residence and is located in a county designated for the Individuals and Households Program. As of XXX, designated counties are: XXX

The generator was purchased or rented due to a disruption in electrical utility service caused by NAMED DISASTER.
Proof-of-purchase or rental receipts for the items are submitted by the applicant.
Price Limits

FEMA may reimburse applicants up to $449 for generators and up to $179.99 for chainsaws.
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Texas Page: https://www.fema.gov/disaster/4586
 
pjigar said:
Or just stock up on wood if you have a wood burning fire place.


Generator in my book is for convenience and comfort. There are number of crud ways to keep warm or cool for survival.
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As I've read this subject, I've wondered about pjigar's approach. Having whole house back-up or even a good (sine-wave) generator for electronics and the fridge would be nice in the event of a power failure. BUT it does seem expensive - especially whole house for the "chance" that the power failure will be extended. In 13 years, we've had one power outage that lasted 18 hours.

If you need power to survive (really NEED - like running O2 generator, other medical equipment, etc.) then I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money. If the convenience of always having power is important, then I say "blow that dough." However, survival is another matter.

If we lost the $300 worth of food in our fridge/freezer due to a black out of 24+ hours, I'd be upset but I wouldn't miss a meal. We have canned goods and a couple of those 30-day food kits (add water and heat). I do have a portable butane cook stove, but even "cold" dry soup mix is edible if you have the water (we can ONLY store water - not pump it even if we had a generator.)

On the mainland, I had a Jotul stove to heat one house if need be. City water would either work or it wouldn't (would likely be time to store many gallons in any case.) The last house, I installed two ventless propane wall heaters (good for 2400 SF.) The "pig" outside would last for up to 3 weeks of judicious heating during a bad winter (cozy when huddled by the heater - good sleeping under the covers at night. Drip the faucets, just in case.) Oh and I had 2 Kero heaters with 55 gal of Kero in the yard barn.

For light, I have perhaps 20 LED "flash lights" and lanterns with batteries for at least 2 weeks. It's true, we'd have no computer or other electronics, but I could charge my phone from the car with my tiny inverter.

So while I love the technology and I did have a generator at my last house, I wonder if one could justify it for more than convenience. Not a rant, not a criticism, nor even a suggestion. Just thinking about my own situation and trying to balance cost, convenience, and survival. YMMV
 
Koolau said:
...a good (sine-wave) generator...
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Yep, purchased it in December for the RV, used it in February to allow us stay comfortable and prevent any freeze damage (to the house or us).

Close friends down the road had no generator and, along with what appears to be thousands of other folks with water wells, are still without water almost two weeks later. The freeze destroyed their pressure pump and replacements are backordered until who knows when.

Our generator allowed me to keep some heat in our well house, preventing us from losing our pump and being in the same situation. That allows us to offer them a place to shower and do some laundry while they wait.
 
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REWahoo said:
Yep, purchased it in December for the RV, used it in February to allow us stay comfortable and prevent any freeze damage (to the house or us).

Close friends down the road had no generator and, along with what appears to be thousands of other folks with water wells, are still without water almost two weeks later. The freeze destroyed their pressure pump and replacements are backordered until who knows when.

Our generator allowed me to keep some heat in our well house, preventing us from losing our pump and being in the same situation. It allows us to offer them a place to shower and do some laundry while they wait.
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Quite nice of you. Wells are great until they aren't. I guess submersible pumps aren't the go to down there? As far as I know, all of our neighborhood well pumps are of the submersed type.
 
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ExFlyBoy5 said:
Quite nice of you. Wells are great until they aren't. I guess submersible pumps aren't the go to down there? As far as I know, all of our neighborhood well pumps are of the submersed type.
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Virtually the only option in the Midwest where it always freezes in winter. YMMV
 
ExFlyBoy5 said:
I was REALLY surprised that our well pump didn't freeze. We had several days of below zero temps.
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That is surprising. You must have it very well-insulated.

Most folks here, including us, have built a small "pump house" to cover the pressure (booster) pump and pressure tank, but leave it uninsulated. We rely on supplemental heat during very infrequent periods of prolonged sub-freezing weather to protect both those and the connecting pipes. The lack of power during the storm combined with single-digit temps created a real boom market in the water pump industry in these parts.
 
ncbill said:
I wouldn't bother re-wiring an electric water heater...the one at our vacation cabin (plain old tank style) only takes less than an hour to heat water comfortably for a shower.
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Another good idea! I might do best of both world by decoupling 240 V breaker in to two 120 V breakers for the water heater. That way I can use a low power mode when on the generator or full power mode when on the grid. We will have to see if the water heater electronics can take only 120 V to begin with.
 
East Texas here and we get spinoff tornadoes from the numerous hurricanes that hit the gulf. For nearly 40 years wife and I have endured the ice storms that leave us without electricity for as long as 9 days. Plumbing throughout our previous home froze back in 1983 when we had 6-9 degrees for almost a week. There were other events from tornadoes and frigid temps along the years. Whole house generators were not available to the average homeowner back then. Race ahead many years and add an elderly father who needs his oxygenator machine and myself with a CPAP machine.

After a couple of weather related outages that lasted days we opted to install a $10k whole house generator. Yes expensive, wonderful yes, underutilized yes, but when we need it, we have it. Then there are the normal routine outages that last 1-6 hours occasionally. Great to have when you need it. We are about a block from the natural gas lines in our neighborhood so we rented a 250 gallon propane tank that will last us about 7 days in full nonstop use. It’s been trouble free. Strangely the big freeze didn’t bother us at all...we never lost power (why i don’t know) nor did we lose water or bust any part of the plumbing system. I wrapped and double wrapped pipes and spigots. Swimming pool system got double wrapped in a cave of plastic with a 60 watt bulb enclosed.

We are in a single story ranch of 2300 sq Ft. You can cook or bake on the electric range but they recommend not using an electric dryer. System comes with a 10 year service plan and I can attest to the fact that they indeed show up to change the oil and clean the air cleaner. One thing not included is a maintenance free battery which I swapped out recently. If we were to sell and buy or build I wouldn’t think twice about not including another back up system. I’m sure the deals are out there if you decide to install a system. We recommend!! Also I hate to think of how much food we have lost in all those years.
 
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Thanks to all that have answered, I have used some of the posts to learn and be able to ask questions.


An update on my search...


The prices given on a 20KW to 22KW seem to be in the ballpark range that I am getting from dealers... low seems to be $10K and high at $12K (probably before tax)... none yet to my house.. will have someone here in 2 weeks...


The top brands for reliability SEEM to be Cummings, Kohler and then Generac. Funny, but the same for noise level. All seem to have some really bad reviews out there so it is kinda hard to get a real sense of reliability. Also, almost all of the sites that I read seem to have the same language so they must be getting from the manufacturer.



As for this time, we got lucky as we were only out for 4 to 5 hours. Sister in Austin was out days... she said she was 'inconvenienced' but since has discovered her pool pump froze and is destroyed... at first she was not wanting one but now is thinking about a small one for the main items but no whole house...


Another sister is now 80 and is willing to blow the dough.... she has more money than she needs and she said 'what am I saving it for?'...


My DW is saying something similar... so I will probably blow the dough also..
 
I might have a problem with a diesel; I don't know if it is a problem with gasoline engines. An acquaintance of ours had trouble with algae growing in his RV tank, fuel lines, and fuel pump when his RV was sitting for 6 months while snowbirding in FL. If it was running all the time, I'd go Cummins.

My NG Generac has been reliable for us for almost 5 years.
 
Winemaker said:
I might have a problem with a diesel; I don't know if it is a problem with gasoline engines. An acquaintance of ours had trouble with algae growing in his RV tank, fuel lines, and fuel pump when his RV was sitting for 6 months while snowbirding in FL. If it was running all the time, I'd go Cummins.

My NG Generac has been reliable for us for almost 5 years.
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It’s a common misconception that Cummins only makes diesel. Not true. They make propane and NG fired engines for back up power. I have one and it’s great.
 
Out of curiosity from this thread, I looked up the Cummins generator. If I was in the market, I'd look at them closely. The claim that they run at 1800rpm is interesting. If true, that should make them more quiet and require less maintenance and it should generate less stress on the motor. I have a Generac and I think it runs closer to 3000rpm. The noise on mine isn't bad, but I'm sure that rpm creates more wear.
 
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The two RPMś that are common are 1800 and 3600, and that is to create the required 60 cycles per second. The 1800 RPM generators are really far superior in noise, longevity, and fuel consumption. Those really noisy contractor generators are 3600 RPM machines, to give it some perspective. The Onans built into motorhomes are 1800 RPM machines.
There are also generators wound for 1200 RPM, but those are industrial diesel machines.
 
aubailey said:
My suggestion is move below North Carolina. I am sure many people live in the North to be near relatives. If that is not the case I have no sympathy for you.:)
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We're in Virginia, and the summer heat here scares me more than the cold.
 
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