Whole house generator

splitwdw said:
Why do you think that carbon monoxide is going in your house? This must be a setup that I'm not familiar with in our area.
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Nick12 said:
The tech advised us so we follow.
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I can totally understand that the tech would advise you to make sure the vents are clear of snow or any obstruction while running. I'm sure it would not be good for the unit to run while obstructed. I see absolutely no way that the unit would, if obstructed, introduce carbon monoxide into the dwelling under any circumstance. If that possibility is real, the set up is significantly flawed.

Again, that doesn't take away from the advice to keep the unit unobstructed. It just baffles me, and apparently splitwdw, how carbon monoxide could enter the dwelling. I've had two whole house units. One I had installed and the other was at the house when purchased. Codes require these units are distanced from any opening of the dwelling by several feet. They are not supposed to be in a configuration that would allow for carbon monoxide intrusion. If you look at your unit and you really think this is possible, I would hope you'd have it moved. It just shouldn't be possible.
 
Jerry1 said:
I can totally understand that the tech would advise you to make sure the vents are clear of snow or any obstruction while running. I'm sure it would not be good for the unit to run while obstructed. I see absolutely no way that the unit would, if obstructed, introduce carbon monoxide into the dwelling under any circumstance. If that possibility is real, the set up is significantly flawed.

Again, that doesn't take away from the advice to keep the unit unobstructed. It just baffles me, and apparently splitwdw, how carbon monoxide could enter the dwelling. I've had two whole house units. One I had installed and the other was at the house when purchased. Codes require these units are distanced from any opening of the dwelling by several feet. They are not supposed to be in a configuration that would allow for carbon monoxide intrusion. If you look at your unit and you really think this is possible, I would hope you'd have it moved. It just shouldn't be possible.
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Baffling or not, I'm going by the tech's advice. I dug out the Generac generator when it was covered with a snow drift of 5 feet of snow a few weeks ago.
 
We don’t have natural gas at our house, so we went with a portable 15K unit. We were going for a 10K, but the price wasn’t that much higher for a 15K. It is essentially a whole house generator. We are on well water with 4 adults in the house, so we wanted a unit that would power everything. I keep it in my garage, then when we lose power, I wheel it out back. I have a rather large “wire” hardwired into my electrical box. I turn off the main breakers, solar panel scissor switch and plug in the generator.
It works great except for having to do gas runs everyday, but beats losing your food and not having running water, heat or AC.
 
Jerry1 said:
So, if you're desperate enough to do this, pull the meter. When you pull the meter, you disconnect the house from the grid. Not something I would do or recommend.
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In some jurisdictions, if you pull the meter and you aren't a licensed electrician, you are subject to a VERY hefty fine. $10,000 worth of a fine in Georgia if I recall correctly. And they *will* know it's been pulled since most are smart meters these days.
 
Nick12 said:
Baffling or not, I'm going by the tech's advice. I dug out the Generac generator when it was covered with a snow drift of 5 feet of snow a few weeks ago.
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For sure. I'm not questioning that. No doubt that's the right thing to do. I'm just concerned with the thought that there could be any possibility that carbon monoxide could enter your house.
 
ExFlyBoy5 said:
In some jurisdictions, if you pull the meter and you aren't a licensed electrician, you are subject to a VERY hefty fine. $10,000 worth of a fine in Georgia if I recall correctly. And they *will* know it's been pulled since most are smart meters these days.
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That could be true. All I know is that my friend is an electrician and he's pulled the meter a few times as he's done work on my house and there was never an issue. But of course, somewhere else may have rules against that. In those areas, there must be some exceptions as I don't think it would be safe to do some jobs, like a service panel upgrade, without pulling the meter to disconnect the power from the main line to the panel.
 
marko said:
So I have a technical question on this: why couldn't you run just one extension cord, modified with a prong at each end and plug it into any random outlet. Wouldn't that supply power to the whole house?

Yes, I know you wouldn't want to run everything off of it because of load, and I'm sure there's other safety issues, but wouldn't that essentially bring power to every outlet in the house?

I'm not endorsing it but wondering if it would even work?
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Technically, probably nothing wrong with it so long as you disconnect the main breaker to the line and can stay within the load ratings. It certainly will not meet any electrical codes. Safety wise", there are many, MANY things wrong with it. Starting with the reason it is called a "suicide cord". I have read that it is done. I strongly recommend against it.

I have a 5500W portable generator that I am installing an interlock and a real generator input box on the main breaker box. I have designed 240V systems before and even 3-phase. I won't use a suicide cord.
 
Somewhat of a thread drift from the OP, but my system is simple. When I replaced the dangerous Federal Pacific service box, I installed a Siemens panel with an interlock and added a generator input box on the other side of the garage wall.

I picked up a 6000 /7000 watt generator with electric start, used, and drilled and tapped the carburetor to add a natural gas inlet. I feed it off a Garrett regulator and a quick connect to the natural gas line just after the meter. I keep it on a Battery Tender connected to a timer so it gets a boost an hour a day. The generator fires right up every time on natural gas, but if I had to, I could put gasoline in the tank and run it, as well. All in, I have less than $500 invested above the service box replacement alone..
 
Freedom56 said:
We have a Honda 2800 watt generator for emergency use. We installed a 30 AMP weatherproof outlet for the generator, connected to our main breaker with an interlock that switch switches off the main breaker into the house and breaker to the solar panels. You don't want to put power back into the grid while your generator is active. The solar panel inverters switch off when it does not detect grid power. This is by design. We don't run the panels with the generator since we can't discharge the excess electricity back to the grid and we generate far more than we consume during the day. We switch off non-essential circuits such as the pool pump when using the generator. The generator can run about 12 hours with a tank of gas. We have only used it 3 times in the last 5 years.
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I did the same thing...minus the solar. I looked into the whole house thing and even getting the unit at cost through a friend, it was A LOT of coin.

I get wanting something. We lost power for a week twice in about 6 months time. It sucked throwing out all of that food from our 2 refrigerator/freezers. I just couldn’t justify the number. Been about 7-8 years now with an 8500 watt that I roll out of my garage and start it. Very happy with my decision. I’ve needed it 4-5 times.
 
We are half way through installing a long term energy supply at our house. Good tips all. The long and short of the plan is:
for 1 day outages - battery pack (Tesla powerwall)
for 7 day outages - small generator similar to the Honda mentioned above
for 30++ day outages - solar electric and hot water panels.



We have most of this installed, but were waiting on the battery for better (longer lived) and cheaper options. The situation in Texas has given us a reminder to just get it done. Thanks, lone star state!


Total costs (about 40K) will be recovered through utility savings and federal and state credits in about 15-20 years. We have everything but the battery and small generator already in place. The system is grid tied but we are installing the hardware necessary to run things standalone in a crazy emergency.



The nicest thing so far is to be able to say we don't have an electric bill to visitors and see their quizzical expressions...
 
jimbee said:
Yeah, it will work, but it isn't a good idea. You have to know what you are doing, and even if you do, you might make a mistake and hurt a line electrician working on service restoration. The main circuit breaker for electric service must be opened first so this doesn't happen.

We used to call cords with two male ends "suicide cords". Can you guess why?

It will work best connecting to a 240 V receptacle so you energize both legs of your distribution panel. You can back feed electricity within the limits of the circuit breaker that serves the 240 V receptacle. You also need to open the breakers on branch circuits of loads not used, so you don't overload the breaker used for back feed.

Much safer to install a proper transfer switch and generator receptacle, or a permanently installed generator system.
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The cheapest way to do the above safely is with an interlock on the panel with a generator breaker (e.g. 30A) & generator inlet box.

The interlock requires the main breaker be turned off before the generator breaker can be turned on. Loads are managed by switching on/off individual circuit breakers.

Though I'm planning to go even cheaper via a neighbor's example.

In the last power failure here they just hooked up a large (~2000W) pure sine wave inverter direct to their vehicle's battery (left it running) to run their fridge & microwave.

Since I only have a couple of critical needs (gas furnace & chest freezer, both located near each other) an inverter like the above would run both just fine via a heavy-duty extension cord...perishable food worth anything (e.g. meat) from the fridge would go into the freezer for the duration.
 
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I always had a 3.5KW emergency generator which I fire up at least once a year. But with this last brutal winter storm and possibility of gas pressure dropping during the storm, I am re-designing my solution. I like the whole house generator but I don't like the price tag! I just picked up a 9.5KW tri-fuel (gas, CNG and propane) generator from Costco for $700+tax. My plan is the following:

* Add an 50A 230V RV inlet and feed it directly into power panel with 50A breakers.

* No automatic transfer switch in order to avoid the spike and unintended operation of the generator. I can manually operate few switches when power is lost. Turn off power to main panel, start generator, turn on the generator breakers.

* Main fuel: I have a lot of small engines and zero turn so we always have 20-30 gallons of gas on hand. Keep at least 20 gallon reserve at all times. Gas has be cycled to keep it fresh so that is a pain.

* Back up fuel: Have a couple of 100lb propane bottles ready which can last us 5 days. Propane can be stored indefinitely. We use propane for cooking so we have a couple of more 40lb bottles for that if push comes to shove. Some day I may get a big tank if hauling propane becomes painful.

* We will be in the country so no natural gas any more. Otherwise this could be the main fuel.

* Maintenance: This is a chore that must be done. I have an electric start generator so my plan is to jerry rig an auto-start/stop system using a raspberry pie zero board. Rough plan is to use 3 I/O pins with relays: One to select the fuel (this activates electric start), another to activate linear stepper motor for choke, and last one for electric start. Run a cron job to auto start/stop for 30 minutes every month as per manufacturer recommendation. This will also keep the electric start battery charged.


If anyone has done a DIY solution then please chime in on my plan.
 
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Brave man to hook something you code, to something that has relays and to something that can blow up :)


ETA: Sounds like something I'd try
 
sengsational said:
Brave man to hook something you code, to something that has relays and to something that can blow up :)

ETA: Sounds like something I'd try
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:LOL:



But on a serious note, the relays are all for the low-voltage control signals (start, stop, move choke, etc.) The high voltage switches will be manually operated AND with an interlock in case my kids decide to play with the panel!
 
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Late to the party, but

For what it is worth.... We've had a Generac whole house generator for the last 10 years.
We live in the country and are literally the last house on our electrical grid, so we have had continual electrical outages since we moved here. On average, at least one every two weeks, each lasting from 2 to 24 hours.
We have had extended outages - up to three weeks during the summer and once 12 days when an arctic front came through and plunged us into sub freezing weather for 6 days. (We have electric heat BTW).
The Generac has done well for us.
While not silent by any means, our Generac is not as loud as a lawnmower ( to use a previous posters standard) and has been extremely reliable. We have a contract to service it twice a year..

When the time comes to replace it, I will get another Generac
 
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pjigar said:
.............* No automatic transfer switch in order to avoid the spike and unintended operation of the generator. I can manually operate few switches when power is lost. Turn off power to main panel, start generator, turn on the generator breakers.........
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Hopefully you have an interlock as opposed to just turning off the main breaker.
 
ncbill said:
... I'm planning to go even cheaper via a neighbor's example.

In the last power failure here they just hooked up a large (~2000W) pure sine wave inverter direct to their vehicle's battery (left it running) to run their fridge & microwave.

Since I only have a couple of critical needs (gas furnace & chest freezer, both located near each other) an inverter like the above would run both just fine via a heavy-duty extension cord...perishable food worth anything (e.g. meat) from the fridge would go into the freezer for the duration.
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The above is a workable solution. The question that will come up is about run time with a car idling.

I looked on the Web, and it is said that a 2-liter engine will burn about 0.3 gal/hr while idling. My large 30-cf fridge draws only 300W when the compressor runs, and that is a light load enough for a car engine that it may not have to rev up much.

How does that 0.3-gal/hr compare to the typical 2-kW portable inverter generator? On the Web, the answer I found is that the 2-kW Honda generator burns 0.12 gal/hr when delivering 500W.

By the way, I use a 2-kW Xantrex inverter in my motorhome to power kitchen appliances like a microwave, rice cooker, induction cooktop (one at a time). The inverter is fed with 2 12.8-V lithium batteries of 100Ah each.
 
I posted up that my 2000 honda went through ~4 gallons in 50 hours, with a little break one day when my wife did not fill it before I got home from work. That was a 20 CF chest freezer, 25 CF 3 door fridge, and a few lights and charging things. It supposedly gets 8 hours at 25% load on the 1 gallon tank.
 
ncbill said:
Since I only have a couple of critical needs (gas furnace & chest freezer, both located near each other) an inverter like the above would run both just fine via a heavy-duty extension cord...perishable food worth anything (e.g. meat) from the fridge would go into the freezer for the duration.
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I’m sure you know this, but the furnace is a little bit of a challenge since I’m pretty sure it’s hard wired. Therefore, you can’t just plug it in to the extension cord. Make sure you have a plan for that.

I rigged something up for my son in law when they lost power but it required that I opened the connection box on the furnace and disconnect some wiring and connect up the generator. There’s other ways, but the point is, there’s no plug.
 
Jerry1 said:
I’m sure you know this, but the furnace is a little bit of a challenge since I’m pretty sure it’s hard wired. Therefore, you can’t just plug it in to the extension cord. Make sure you have a plan for that.

I rigged something up for my son in law when they lost power but it required that I opened the connection box on the furnace and disconnect some wiring and connect up the generator. There’s other ways, but the point is, there’s no plug.
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At my last house, I put a plug on the furnace and plugged it into an outlet I'd installed for that purpose. When I had my furnace replaced the installers had to remove that setup as it wasn't legal. I'm not sure what the rationale is for the illegality, but it is an easy modification to make.
 
Jerry1 said:
I’m sure you know this, but the furnace is a little bit of a challenge since I’m pretty sure it’s hard wired. Therefore, you can’t just plug it in to the extension cord. Make sure you have a plan for that.

I rigged something up for my son in law when they lost power but it required that I opened the connection box on the furnace and disconnect some wiring and connect up the generator. There’s other ways, but the point is, there’s no plug.
Click to expand...

Just an FYI - I used this transfer switch made for the purpose:
TF151W Easy/Tran - Reliance Controls Corporation
Simple, and works great. Amazon is not the place to buy it anymore, too expensive there now. Can get it online elsewhere for under $100.

I disconnected the romex power feed to the furnace, diverted it over to a 4" steel box with cover that I installed near the furnace between joists on the attic floor. The whip that is attached to the transfer switch connects into the 4" box, and an additional piece of romex connects the 4"' box back to the furnace. Our furnaces are in the attic, hung from the rafters by steel straps to avoid putting vibration into the ceiling joists. They are upflow furnaces laid on their side, used as horizontal furnaces. They were made to be dual-use mounting. For a furnace in a closet or basement in upflow configuration, I would have instead mounted the transfer switch on the side of the furnace itself.
 
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