The Cryptocurrency Thread

[joesxm3]

I hope my previous two posts were helpful.

What I would like people to take away from this is that you need to be very conscious of security practices for all of your financial online activities, not only the wild west crypto ones.

You should make sure that you have made use of as many features as possible to secure your email and your account logins with strong passwords and reliable two factor authentication.

In addition many of the exchanges and brokerages have features that you can activate to turn off withdrawals from your accounts and only turn them back on when you need them. They also have alerts that you can turn on for any activity to tip you off that something is going on.

 

[joesxm3]

Here is some more information that I have found in my research.

Assuming that most of us here would be best served by getting a crypto exposure through the traditional financial institution channels, here are some options.

Greyscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) this is a closed end fund that holds bitcoin. It used to trade at a premium, but now it trades at roughly a 15% discount. This is because some sort of arbitrage play that institutions used to do between BTC and GBTC shares does not work any longer. I am not sure about the details. Also there is competition from Canadian bitcoin ETFs and bitcoin proxies like MSTR and the miners.

Some people feel that if GBTC succeeds in getting permission to convert to an ETF, the discount will go back to 0%, so buying GBTC is like buying bitcoin on sale.

Microstrategy MSTR is a company run by Michael Saylor, who is bat-sh*t-crazy over bitcoin. At this point, almost the entire value of the company is due to its massive bitcoin holdings. So buying shares of MSTR is more or less like buying bitcoin.

Bitcoin mining companies are also bitcoin proxies, but like gold mining companies, they are volatile and in a cutthroat business.

BITO is a new ETF that holds bitcoin futures. What you need to realize about BITO is that it buys futures contracts, I think monthly duration. Currently future contacts cost more than current contracts causing a "contango" effect. From what I read about this it causes quite a drain on the value because of having to buy new contracts every month, so BITO is not a good way to hold bitcoin for the long term. It seems to have been created to allow institutions to set up hedge trades combined with actual BTC holdings.

One word of caution . . .

Having taken so long to learn about crypto and delaying actually buying some, we may be "late to the party".

If you filter out all of the youtube crazy people, the rational estimate is that bitcoin is past the middle point of its cycle and will not be going up by a huge amount before it reaches the top sometime between the end of the year and the first quarter of 2022.

Right now BTC is near all time highs. Unless you are a die hard momentum trader, it would seem that this is not a good time to be buying BTC. The same might be said of the stock market, although it seems to keep going up. Funny that saying that the stock market will keep going up is considered normal but saying that BTC will keep going up is considered whacked.

I have a proven track record of being too conservative in my equity allocation, so take me with a grain of salt, but I think keeping in mind the old saying "buy low - sell high" might be a good idea in the current situation.

 

[aja8888]

Thanks for your informative posts, Joe!

 

[explanade]

Having taken so long to learn about crypto and delaying actually buying some, we may be "late to the party".

If you filter out all of the youtube crazy people, the rational estimate is that bitcoin is past the middle point of its cycle and will not be going up by a huge amount before it reaches the top sometime between the end of the year and the first quarter of 2022.

Right now BTC is near all time highs. Unless you are a die hard momentum trader, it would seem that this is not a good time to be buying BTC. The same might be said of the stock market, although it seems to keep going up. Funny that saying that the stock market will keep going up is considered normal but saying that BTC will keep going up is considered whacked.

I have a proven track record of being too conservative in my equity allocation, so take me with a grain of salt, but I think keeping in mind the old saying "buy low - sell high" might be a good idea in the current situation.

So it may be a bubble but now you hear crypto touts saying that it's a hedge against inflation.



If I didn't know better, people who got in early depend on more people buying in to boost the value of their holdings.

What does that mechanism remind you of?


Sure your brokerage account could be hacked. But some of it is insured and most brokerage firms have a track record.

Coinbase and other crypto exchanges do not.

SIM swapping can hit both crypto and regular financial assets. But crypto might be harder to recover.

Let's say the person who hijacked a phone number to break into an account as well as commandeer 2FA for either a crypto or traditional brokerage account was caught.

He or she can be prosecuted but what is going to make him or her give up the private key to the crypto assets that he or she stole?

Incentive for the thief might be to not give up the private key, knowing that the stolen crypto will be waiting for him or her after he or she serves their sentence.

In contrast, a traditional asset can be traced and retrieved, unless it was converted to cash and stuffed into DB Cooper's satchel bag.

 

[37andhappy]

... now you hear crypto touts saying that it's a hedge against inflation.

You only heard this now? 13 years after the genius of Bitcoin?

Providing a hedge and store of wealth against inflation was cited by Satoshi at the very outset of Bitcoin being conceived.

In his monumental whitepaper "Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System", he wrote that Bitcoin would be free of inflation once the entire supply had been mined for internet use. (Until then there is a fixed or "priced in" inflation which is immutable and unchangeable from the outset as part of the code). Note also that the original proposal for a new monetary network was released at a time when there were fears that a sharp increase in the supply of traditional fiat currencies "quantitative easing" would lead to both high inflation and currency devaluation. Sounds kind of familiar, right? So, even though you may just be hearing about Bitcoin's inflation protection properties now in mainstream media, Bitcoin's utility as defense against inflation is not a new concept.

If I didn't know better, people who got in early depend on more people buying in to boost the value of their holdings.

What does that mechanism remind you of?

The free market (which by the way is applicable to any tradable asset).

Sure your brokerage account could be hacked. But some of it is insured and most brokerage firms have a track record.

Coinbase and other crypto exchanges do not.

Let's say the person who hijacked a phone number to break into an account as well as commandeer 2FA for either a crypto or traditional brokerage account was caught.

He or she can be prosecuted but what is going to make him or her give up the private key to the crypto assets that he or she stole?

Incentive for the thief might be to not give up the private key, knowing that the stolen crypto will be waiting for him or her after he or she serves their sentence.

In contrast, a traditional asset can be traced and retrieved, unless it was converted to cash and stuffed into DB Cooper's satchel bag.

All leading and regulated crypto exchanges have insurance against crime and fraud. But the great thing about Bitcoin (unlike stocks) is that you don't need to rely on an intermediary for custody. Simply take control of your own keys, buy, hodl and keep off any exchange. Accessible anywhere in the world simply via a number (ie your "private key"), which can be represented via a phrase or key words which you can store entirely in your head or which can be associated with something entirely unique to your person, such as your DNA or iris.

If we ever have a major banking collapse (think banks "closing", limiting withdrawals, encountering major IT technical issues, complying with Government orders to restrict payments out, compulsory "taxation" (eg a % being taken of every account holder to fund a crisis or war etc), we will truly see one of Bitcoin's major defense utilities shine... If any such things ever happen, you can't say you were not warned. The information is all out there (and indeed is right here on this forum).

 

[explanade]

If we have a major banking collapse, money, regardless of currency, including crypto, will the least of anyone's worries.

When people are hoarding fuel, food, water and ammo, nobody is going to be paying for scarce commodities in crypto or gold.

 

[37andhappy]

If we have a major banking collapse, money, regardless of currency, including crypto, will the least of anyone's worries.

When people are hoarding fuel, food, water and ammo, nobody is going to be paying for scarce commodities in crypto or gold.

And don't forget also that "Bitcoin disappears when the internet goes off..."

 

[37andhappy]

If we have a major banking collapse, money, regardless of currency, including crypto, will the least of anyone's worries.

Actually, last time we had a collapse (2008) money was indeed the forefront of most people's worries. And gold rallied in the aftermath, both as a store of wealth and as a defense against the money printing that inevitably followed. Next time around, Sats will very likely serve the same function that gold did back then...

 

[captain3d]

I notice gold is finally showing a bit of life

 

[37andhappy]

I notice gold is finally showing a bit of life

Yep. I'm not a gold bug, but I think its worth holding a little (for similar reasons to BTC).

I also have a theory that many of the Gen Z who are crypto native, may at some point revert to an interest in gold as "retro-cool" analogue version of BTC. They fully understand the importance of a fixed supply asset as a store of wealth and have an entire social media interconnected system which allows for such a trend to quickly take hold.

That, and I just like the feeling of holding it in my hands...

 

[SecondAttempt]

Moderators,

Would it be possible to have a thread dedicated to discussing crypto currency trading that is limited to that and does not allow discussion of why crypto currency is stupid?

I have decided to greatly diminish if not completely stop posting in this forum since there seem to be some people who prefer an echo chamber. Some of my posts have been on the snarky side but I have never said, nor do I think, that bitcoin is stupid or that people who buy it are stupid.

I simply question the fundamental economic value of cryptocurrency for most people. Past performance does not equate to economic value. The tulip bulb is, I think, a perfect analogy. Prices went up like crazy but there was fundamentally nothing to support anything but a nominal economic value for their beauty. Many people did not recognize that at the time and what looked like a sure thing ended badly for most.

I just hope those who read the evangelism but do not post do not get hurt and that is why I think a dialog is better than an echo chamber where only the same views are expressed and unsupported claims are not challenged. I know I appreciate it when people challenge my statements about other investments as people have done on other E-R forums rececently. They make me think and do my own research and I benefit from it.

But since questioning cryptocurrencies seems to be offensive to some, I will refrain unless clearly inaccurate claims are posted. Just as if someone encouraged people to stand on railroad tracks I would speak up to make sure they were warned.

 

[joesxm3]

SecondAttempt,

I guess I wasn't clear when I wrote that. I should have said "a second thread". I didn't mean I wanted to silence skepticism, but since the moderators used their powers to limit crypto discussion to a single thread, I felt our attempt to have a crypto asset section was being turned into a crypto bashing thread.

You make a good point comparing crypto to the tulip bubble - one that had previously occurred to me as well.

However, I think a lot of the commentary that is questioning of crypto is glossing over what I see as a clear an present danger - the risk that government spending and the very high level of government debt, which I feel that the government is attempting to deal with by debasing the currency in order to pay the debt off with dollars whose value is decreasing poses to the FIRE lifestyle.

I don't subscribe, but the Wall Street Journal had a story about the 4% rule no longer being valid. From a summary I saw, they claimed that the 4% rule was based on a fixed income return of 5% and an inflation rate of 2.5% (or so). Even by the government's own numbers, we are close to 6% inflation now.

Some may be grasping at straws to try to deal with this situation. Maybe they are being lured into a tulip mania hoping that the BTC returns of the past 11 years will continue ("past performance is no guarantee of future returns").

I think what you see as crypto evangelization is just the well intentioned opposite of what you see as the need to protect people from losing all their money chasing a pipe dream.

The more sensible of the pro-crypto commentators are quick to point out that it is an extremely speculative endeavor and constantly say "don't invest more than you can afford to lose."

You are right that a lot of people, many of them young are probably taking a much larger and more dangerous risk than they realize. I think a lot of them feel painted into a corner with high student loan debt, unreachable home ownership prices, rising cost of living etc.

My research this year has led me to feel that a lot of trends are intersecting such as medical advances (gene editing etc.), robotics, artificial intelligence (Tesla self driving cars and spin off to robots), and maybe a disruption of the financial system model.

As Neil Howe has pointed out in his "Fourth Turning" book, history moves in cycles and I agree with him that we are currently in the middle of the chaotic disruptive cycle and are likely to have change occur in a manner those living today have not previously experienced.

My research has led me to feel that it may be prudent to have a small allocation to crypto as a hedge, similar to a small allocation to gold.

It has also led me to feel that it will be a disaster to be sitting on a large cash or fixed income allocation that is producing zero or negative yield. That is the reason for my recent interest in increasing my equity exposure and my recent interest in selling put and call options (thanks for your input on those threads).

As I said in the other post, I do feel that even if one accepts some of the pro-crypto arguments that with the current run up in the market it is probably the wrong time to be moving into the space, unless you buy into the idea of holding them for a very long time.

Your comment echoed my feelings but from the opposite direction. I guess we all need to make more of an effort to understand where people with the other viewpoint are coming from. Maybe what seems like snarky attacking is really just a desire to save people from harm.

I am sorry if my comment offended you or made you feel like your contributions are not appreciated.

 

[Aerides]

I didn't mean I wanted to silence skepticism, but since the moderators used their powers to limit crypto discussion to a single thread, I felt our attempt to have a crypto asset section was being turned into a crypto bashing thread.

<mod note>

The moderators discussed this matter at length, for an approach to best serve the entire forum, not just this one topic or handful of members. Please respect our decision, and contact moderators directly if you still object - complaining about moderation in posts is not permitted per the community rules. This one-thread approach is not unprecedented, and has been utilized with success on the EV topic and others in the past.

This thread doesn't belong to any one member or subset of members. Just like all threads, all are welcome to participate.

 

[target2019]

What is cryptocurrency?

joesxm3, thanks for your information and due dilligence.

If anyone is looking for shorter explanations, this page from Schwab is a good start: https://www.schwab.com/cryptocurrency
I would also trust Fidelity and Vanguard on this subject. These institutions have reputations which rest on years of advice. There is a reason large institutions are going slow on this...

From the link, a very good index-card summary if you need one:

What is cryptocurrency?
Cryptocurrency is a virtual currency secured through one-way cryptography. It appears on a distributed ledger called a blockchain that's transparent and shared among all users in a permanent and verifiable way that's nearly impossible to fake or hack into. The original intent of cryptocurrency was to allow online payments to be made directly from one party to another without the need for a central third-party intermediary like a bank. However, with the introduction of smart contracts, non-fungible tokens, stablecoins, and other innovations, additional uses and capabilities are rapidly evolving.

Cryptocurrency's value stems from a combination of scarcity and the perception that it is a store of value, an anonymous means of payment, or a hedge against inflation. Cryptocurrency investors can buy or sell them directly in a spot market, or they can invest indirectly in a futures market or by using investment products that provide cryptocurrency exposure.

I received a few emails from Coinbase in which they were asking me to complete my account setup. What has happened is that someone used a compromised yahoo email from long ago. Being an adventurous sort I followed through and secured an account at Coinbase with that email. I stopped at the final step, adding a payment method.
1. I don't need cryptocurrency, but I'm as curious as the next guy!
2. Security concerns brought me to a pause. I don't no much about Coinbase and their reputation. How secure is their security organization? I imagine they are the juiciest target.
3. Coinbase won't accept my HNT earnings yet. So maybe in the future I'll dabble.

 

[target2019]

Magical Thinking

I see some of the comparisons and extensions of past events as part of magical thinking. For example, references to what occured during the 17th century tulip craze are not on solid ground according to this article:
https://www.history.com/news/tulip-mania-financial-crash-holland

So you recall hearing or reading a factoid, and attach that to another dot. And on and on it goes, feeding what some call, "magical thinking."

I recall hearing about the tulip thing in another forum, and just like here it is brought up to prove a point. Discussion over, this is just like tulips (or MLM)! I find that examining some of the assumptions we hear over and over again is a worthwhile pursuit.

Sorry for the interlude!

A thread where ideas and assumptions are challenged is a very good idea, and I hope it continues.

 

[Running_Man]

I have decided to greatly diminish if not completely stop posting in this forum since there seem to be some people who prefer an echo chamber. Some of my posts have been on the snarky side but I have never said, nor do I think, that bitcoin is stupid or that people who buy it are stupid.

I simply question the fundamental economic value of cryptocurrency for most people. Past performance does not equate to economic value. The tulip bulb is, I think, a perfect analogy. Prices went up like crazy but there was fundamentally nothing to support anything but a nominal economic value for their beauty. Many people did not recognize that at the time and what looked like a sure thing ended badly for most.

I just hope those who read the evangelism but do not post do not get hurt and that is why I think a dialog is better than an echo chamber where only the same views are expressed and unsupported claims are not challenged. I know I appreciate it when people challenge my statements about other investments as people have done on other E-R forums rececently. They make me think and do my own research and I benefit from it.

But since questioning cryptocurrencies seems to be offensive to some, I will refrain unless clearly inaccurate claims are posted. Just as if someone encouraged people to stand on railroad tracks I would speak up to make sure they were warned.

You want to claim you are offsetting inaccurate claims and not calling anyone stupid then give the tulip bulb analogy, a three year period of the most ignorant of investing themes that fell to zero. However the actual mania lasted 6 months.

This board has been trolling any bitcoin adoption for 10 years. https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/missing-bitcoins-56568.htmlIt has been successful in keeping most of the members away from the problems of 60 percent bitcoin reductions. As a matter of fact Bitcoin has fallen more than 60 percent 3 times! That is 180% of all invested money saved by keeping people out of bitcoin at $20. The very first thread here compared Bitcoins to.....Tulip Bulbs!! which can be reproduced by anyone very easily and to an infinite amount. Cryptocurrency has a very hard limit. It has been around and increasing in value for 10 years and is going to be needed for digital purposes in ever increasing numbers.

A mania is "mental illness marked by periods of great excitement or euphoria, delusions, and overactivity" and are unsustainable. The fact that bitcoin has lasted this long is actual proof that it is not a mania, only that average investors who prefer stocks are unable to see the value.

For information purposes the 25,000 bitcoins mentioned in the very first thread here on the forum would be worth nearly 1.7 billion dollars today. 3,000 times the original investment. A meager $10,000 investment back then would be worth 30 million dollars today. And presently Bitcoin net worth is 2X the entire GDP of Holland.

To accuse the smartest and wealthiest people in the world who are working to increase the use of Cryptocurrency in ever increasing amounts as frauds and shysters (you don't use the word directly, you merely say this ecosystem is tulip bulbs, which was run by frauds and shysters) I strongly disagree with.

If Tim Cook, Elon Musk, Mark Cuban, Peter Thiel are considered rubes, then I am glad to be in that company. Miami is presently planning on giving all citizens shares in crypto currency. The major of New York, the financial center of the United States, is planning on having the city pay him in Bitcoin.

 

[jim584672]

Reading up on Tether. This "Stablecoin" is supposed to be redeemable for dollars. One problem is it actually isn't backed 100% by dollars, so if enough Tether holders demand dollars the whole scheme will collapse and go to zero. New York State already sued them and they agreed to pay 18.5 million and cease dealings with New Yorkers. The CFTC also fined them for lying about full backing. These are really just fronts for money laundering since honest players have no need to hide behind "Stablecoins".

--------------------------------------------------------
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/202...l-currency-trading-platform-bitfinexs-illegal

February 23rd 2021

Attorney General James Ends Virtual Currency Trading Platform Bitfinex’s Illegal Activities in New York

Bitfinex and Tether Must Submit to Mandatory Reporting on Efforts to Stop New York Trading

Bitfinex and Tether Deceived Clients and Market by Overstating Reserves,
Hiding Approximately $850 Million in Losses Around the Globe

--------------------------------------------------------
https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21

October 15, 2021

CFTC Orders Tether and Bitfinex to Pay Fines Totaling $42.5 Million

Tether to Pay $41 million Over Claims that Tether Stablecoin was Fully Backed by US Dollars

Bitfitnex to Pay $1.5 Million for Illegal Transactions While Operating Bitfinex Cryptocurrency Trading Platform and Violation of Prior CFTC Order

 

[37andhappy]

Reading up on Tether. This "Stablecoin" is supposed to be redeemable for dollars. One problem is it actually isn't backed 100% by dollars, so if enough Tether holders demand dollars the whole scheme will collapse and go to zero.

In that sense, stable coins are much like banks.

The money you see in your bank account is supposed to be redeemable for dollars. One problem is that this money (essentially a debt by the bank to you) isn't backed 100% by dollars. So if enough people all demanded their dollars from the bank all at once, the bank would collapse. This is what we call a "run on the bank" and such collapses do occur from time to time. The reason for this is that banks make money by leveraging the total amount of cash deposited, lending out far more money than is deposited with them.

Bitcoin is our defense against such liquidity risks (as there is zero counterparty risk). This is one reason why Bitcoin becomes increasingly popular in counties where people have concerns about banking stability.

I am inclined to support regulation of stable coins similar to how banks are regulated (in terms of needing to meet certain capital adequacy ratios. Until then, stable coins should only be treated as short term trading instruments as a bridge between fiat cash and Bitcoin, rather than as a medium to replace cash for any length of time.

 

[37andhappy]

This board has been trolling any bitcoin adoption for 10 years. ... The very first thread here compared Bitcoins to.....Tulip Bulbs!! which can be reproduced by anyone very easily and to an infinite amount. Cryptocurrency has a very hard limit. It has been around and increasing in value for 10 years and is going to be needed for digital purposes in ever increasing numbers.

To accuse the smartest and wealthiest people in the world who are working to increase the use of Cryptocurrency in ever increasing amounts as frauds and shysters (you don't use the word directly, you merely say this ecosystem is tulip bulbs, which was run by frauds and shysters) I strongly disagree with.

If Tim Cook, Elon Musk, Mark Cuban, Peter Thiel are considered rubes, then I am glad to be in that company. Miami is presently planning on giving all citizens shares in crypto currency. The major of New York, the financial center of the United States, is planning on having the city pay him in Bitcoin.

Interesting! I wasn't aware of the "history" here on Bitcoin. I must say, it blows my mind to hear some of the views expressed here. Kind of reminds of of forums back in 2013 when interest and awareness in Bitcoin was starting to increase. Its kind of like I'm in some kind of time-warp.

[mod edit]

By the way, added to that list of business people embracing Bitcoin, you can now pretty much add every single famous fund manager, expect perhaps Munger and Buffet! These include Steve Cohen, Ray Dalio, George Soros, Paul Tudor Jones, Stanley Druckenmiller., Jim Rogers, I could go on and on. No one is suggesting putting all into Bitcoin, but all view it as an extremely important asset class that one should have a "non-zero" exposure to. Every investment bank has a crypto division, and retail banks globally are slowly but surely increasingly adopting. I'm truly surprised its still such a controversial (or sensitive?) topic here when really it need not be.

 

[jim584672]

If Tim Cook, Elon Musk, Mark Cuban, Peter Thiel are considered rubes, then I am glad to be in that company. Miami is presently planning on giving all citizens shares in crypto currency. The major of New York, the financial center of the United States, is planning on having the city pay him in Bitcoin.

By the way, added to that list of business people embracing Bitcoin, you can now pretty much add every single famous fund manager, expect perhaps Munger and Buffet! These include Steve Cohen, Ray Dalio, George Soros, Paul Tudor Jones, Stanley Druckenmiller., Jim Rogers, I could go on and on.

Notice a pattern? Appeal to authority, if X, Y and Z are with it, it must be good. Part of the confidence game, you must get people to buy in to the scheme. None of the valid objections are answered, just ignored, glossed over, then appeal to authority and look how large the transactions and how long it has been going, therefore it is legit. Don't tell me you are one of the dinosaurs who dares to question this revolutionary new tech, you are too old and dumb to understand it anyway.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

You want to claim you are offsetting inaccurate claims and not calling anyone stupid then give the tulip bulb analogy, a three year period of the most ignorant of investing themes that fell to zero. However the actual mania lasted 6 months.[

I'm not old enough to remember the tulip mania, but I do remember the dot-com frenzy of the late 1990s. Balance sheets didn't matter anymore because the Internet changes everything. When the economy went into recession in 2000, things went south in a hurry.

 

[joesxm3]

The gold standard here seems to be either a combination of the Vanguard Equity Index Fund and the Vanguard Bond Index Fund, or the Vanguard Balanced Fund.

What are the metrics that are used to prove that this is the optimum strategy for the retirement portfolio?

Average annual return?
Low management fees?
Better return than managed funds?
Low volatility?
Price stability?

I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, but what say you to the idea that we specify the metrics that justify the Vanguard funds and once we agree upon the list run the same metrics against bitcoin?

 

[joesxm3]

I'm not old enough to remember the tulip mania, but I do remember the dot-com frenzy of the late 1990s. Balance sheets didn't matter anymore because the Internet changes everything. When the economy went into recession in 2000, things went south in a hurry.

How would you compare that to the current situation in the equity market where it seems that the traditional metrics do not matter and the entire market depends on the money printing by the FED to prop up the stock prices?

If you compare the increases in the stock indexes and the increases in real estate prices, they pretty much match the increase in the money supply.

Maybe the current stock market prices are not driven by irrational exuberance, but the divergence from the market prices and the fundamentals seems every bit as strong to me.

Perhaps the difference is that with the money printing driving things, the current stock market prices are not over valued if you factor in the devaluation of the currency.

I remember thinking that the Nasdaq at 5000 was ridiculous and that it would never get back there again. Here we are close to 16,000.

 

[Chuckanut]

Mining Bitcoins - NIMBY


https://www.wsj.com/articles/bitcoi...-11636730904?mod=hp_trending_now_article_pos5

The powerful computers must be cooled by an array of fans. Their whirring noise has left residents who live near cryptocurrency operations in Quebec, Georgia, Montana and other places agitated and frazzled. Some compare it to a giant dentist’s drill, others to a fleet of helicopters taking off in their backyards.

Local officials in Missoula County, Mont., passed new zoning rules that would restrict how much noise and vibration businesses can create after residents complained about a bitcoin mine that has since gone out of business.

The city of Plattsburgh, N.Y., just south of the U.S.-Canada border, passed a noise ordinance in 2019 to deal with bitcoin mines. The rule came after the city lifted an 18-month ban on approving new cryptocurrency miners.

Joe McMahon, building inspector for the city, said the issue isn’t just the level of sound, measured in decibels, but the frequency, measured by its ability to irritate. He compared the sound of the bitcoin mines to the whine of an airplane engine revving up on the tarmac.

“The numbers themselves don’t tell the whole story,” he said.

Maybe they can drown it out with a chorus of Voo Voo Zella music.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

How would you compare that to the current situation in the equity market where it seems that the traditional metrics do not matter and the entire market depends on the money printing by the FED to prop up the stock prices?

If you compare the increases in the stock indexes and the increases in real estate prices, they pretty much match the increase in the money supply.

Maybe the current stock market prices are not driven by irrational exuberance, but the divergence from the market prices and the fundamentals seems every bit as strong to me.

Perhaps the difference is that with the money printing driving things, the current stock market prices are not over valued if you factor in the devaluation of the currency.

I remember thinking that the Nasdaq at 5000 was ridiculous and that it would never get back there again. Here we are close to 16,000.

Sure, I agree, for the most part. How does that legitimize Bitcoin?